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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Pitching Cold Yeast into Cold Wort ("John Kennedy")
  Brewoff scoresheets (Jim Bermingham)
  fermenting in a corny ("Todd M. Snyder")
  RE:re: Fix and the 40C Rest ("Sven Pfitt")
  Refrigeration Question ("Kevin Eggemeyer")
  question about hot trub and pumps ("Tate, Charles D.")
  Temp of fermeting wort, low T mash ("Dave Burley")
  Mash Thickness (MOREY Dan)
  Head Retention ("Janie Curry")


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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:34:50 +1000
From: "John Kennedy" <johnk at readybake.com.au>
Subject: Pitching Cold Yeast into Cold Wort

Hi Brewers,

I have just finished my 8th all grain brew, my first smooth run, (I new it
would get easer).
My question is, my wort is at 2C (61F) ready for cold break removal, can I
pitch the liquid yeast into an oxygenated starter of the same tempture,
providing both are the same tempture, and let them rise to the correct
tempture...?

John K.




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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:09:18 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <JBHAM6843 at netscape.net>
Subject: Brewoff scoresheets

I think I finally know why I didn't bring back the gold from the 
Bluebonnet brewoff.  My beer was just too good!  My beer must have been 
so good that the judges, when tasting such a golden elixir that I had 
produced, couldn't get enough of it and drank all three bottles.  Then 
realizing what they had done, destroyed all evidence of my having 
entered into the contest.  I know that this must be the case because I 
haven't received my score sheets.  The Bluebonnet was healed on March 
19-20 and the score sheets were to be mailed out the next weekend.  I 
haven't  received my score sheets so I just know that my beer was the 
best and I would have won the gold if it hadn't been for the thirsty 
judges.  Bev Blackwood's beer won only because his was the best of what 
was left.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX



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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:35:55 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: fermenting in a corny

>I am considering conducting my primary ferm in glass and my secondary in a
>corny keg.

To secondary in a ball lock corny keg, one easy way to attach an airlock is
to remove the poppet 'guts' on the gas-in connector of the keg so that the
gas can get out.  Then slide a 1/2 copper sweat union over the post, these
are ~$0.25 at any hardware store if you don't have one already.  Then insert
an airlock on top of the union using a small drilled stopper.  It's the same
size used for attaching an airlock to 12 oz bottles so you might have one of
those already too.

Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY



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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:45:40 -0400
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:re: Fix and the 40C Rest

In "-S"s response toStuart, he penns:

 ...snip...

>I do not think highly of overnight mashes or even additional half-hour 
>steps that perform no clear >function. I think the 40C half hour rest is 
>best eliminated.
 ...really big snip...
>Frankly, there are only a few important parameters that result from the 
>mash & sparge - SG, clarity >(freedom from haze), lack of overextraction 
>flavors, degree of fermentability, adequate FAN, >sufficient foam & body.   
>If you've mastered  these (from a given set of grists), then there is 
>little >to be gained from exotic mash schedules.  Yeast handling methods 
>and yeast, malt & hops >selection are more important to beer quality than 
>exotic mash methods.

>-Steve

 ...end...

While I occasionally experience chill haze, I don't worry about it too much. 
I just opened a bottle of Goliath from Wychwood last night that exhibited 
chill haze, and I have seen it in other commercial beer. It is a minor 
detractor in my opinion. I'm aware of no impact of chill haze on flavor 
which it my primary concern.

More to the point, what do you find detremental in overnight mashes? Or is 
it just a matter of inconvienence?

Oftentimes when I brew, I will do a 5.5 gallon batch and an 11 gallon batch. 
The 11 gallon batch is done in a two tier system based on half barrel 
Sankeys for the mash tun and boiler.

The 5.5 gallon batch will be started the night before in a 5 gallon Gott. I 
do the mash in at 90F in a ss pot, and once the grain is damp I add it to 
the Gott which has been preheated with 165F water. This usually gets me 
close to my target of 152F. Minor additions of boiling water or cold water 
are used to tweak the final temp. The Gott is closed and wrapped with 
blankets until the morning.

In the morning, the Gott contents has usually cooled to around 125F, so I 
will usually pull about half the mash out, boil it and add it back to bring 
the total up to 170F. I set the Gott up to drain into the boiler, and add 
170F water during the sparge.

While this small batch sparges, I mash in the main batch in the Sankey. 
While it goes through it's mash steps (usually two at most except wheat 
beer, often it is a single infusion mash) I boil the small beer. Once the 
small beer is done, I clean out the boiler of hops (whole) and then begin 
sparging the main batch.

 -Steve, What negative effects to you feel this will have on beer quality of 
the small batch?

For me, it is very convenient to make two batches like this. IT allows me to 
brew every other month, instead of every month.

Although I admit that the small batch is always a lower gravity beer and it 
does not last more than two months in a keg, so I probably do not have the 
time to see any effects that would show up due to aging.

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:01:31 -0500
From: "Kevin Eggemeyer" <KEggemeyer at charter.net>
Subject: Refrigeration Question

I am building a refrigeration temperature controller out of an old PC.
A fairly simple circuit using an analog-to-digital converter and two
LM34 temperature sensors connects to the parallel port to read the
temperature.  A solid state relay controls the power to the
refrigerator.  Additional sensors and relays can be added to control
additional refrigerators.

The sensors monitor both the ambient temperature and the wort
temperature.  The ambient temperature is used as the control.  The wort
temperature is monitored so the set point of the ambient temperature can
be lowered if the fermentation generates a lot of heat.

My questions have to do with the running the compressor on the
refrigerator:

1) Is there a minimum amount of time the compressor should be on?  That
is, once the refrigerator kicks on, how long should it stay on?  Or, can
it be shut off quickly without stressing the refrigerator?

2) Is there a minimum amount of time the compressor should remain off
between cycles?

3) Are there any other control parameters that should be set to extend
(or rather, not shorten) the life of the refrigerator?


Any help would be appreciated.

Kevin Eggemeyer
O'Fallon, MO





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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:14:56 -0500
From: "Tate, Charles D." <Chip_Tate at baylor.edu>
Subject: question about hot trub and pumps

I have just build my "dream" system that has valves, a pump, etc. and
like it quite a bit.  The problem is that I've created a new problem for
myself.  My old system required me to lift my full kettle up on a
counter top and then siphon the wort through the chiller.  Other the
minor risks of hernia and fatal scalding, this system was great and gave
me crystal clear work from the kettle.  My hot trub stayed in nice big
flocks and settled with the hops.  Now that I'm pumping my wort from the
kettle, it seems like my pump is whipping the hot trub back into the
wort during recirculation before my hop filter bed gets set up.  Any
ideas, or should I just crack open a cold one and not worry about it?

Thanks,

Chip Tate



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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:30:20 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Temp of fermeting wort, low T mash

Brewsters:

Greg comments that the temperature of his fermenting wort is oft times 10
degrees above the refrigerator temperature.

Greg, I put the temperature sensor into the wort to correct for this. It can
get messy and I have tried a testube with water in it immersed in the wort
with a plastic hose covering the wire, the sensor taped to the outside of the
fermenter, plastic bags etc.  None are great, but the immersion of the sensor
is the key to getting the temperature correct.

It helps to cool the wort before pitching.
- --------------------
I still use a low T mash ( and did before I heard of G. Fix) as I found it
allows the malt to get thoroughly wetted out and hydrated so that the enzymes
can do their work at higher temperatures.

I basically disagree with the C. Papazian attitude ( repeated by SteveA)  to
add additional malt to make up for mashing inefficiencies, as I feel doing a
good mashing job brings with it additonal flavors ( perhaps the melandoins
Steve speaks about) and mouthfeel.

I have never really had a problem with a short low T rest giving head
formation problems.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley



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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:40:08 -0500
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Mash Thickness

Stuart asks:

> I agree that resting first at 104, then infusing to 140 then 158 leads to
a very dilute 
> mash. In at least one BYO article, John Palmer has described a mash with 2
quarts 
> liquid/pound of grain to be a normal mash. What's a normal mash for you?
Are there 
> advantages to a stiffer mash?

Dornbusch gives an good overview of mash thickness in the appendix of
Bavarian Helles.  In this book the ratio is reported as mass:mass.
Converting to qts/lb:

Ratio m:m     quarts/lb
   2:1           .96
   3:1          1.44
   4:1          1.92
   5:1          2.40  (sites this a practical limit for most mash tuns)

I routinely use 1.9 qts/lb as my standard ratio, (I used 1.33 qts/lb when I
1st started brewing).  I believe there are two good reason for using a
thinner mash:

1.  Increased thermal capacity which results in less temperature loss for a
given period of time.  In other words, more stable mash temperature.
2.  Quicker conversion, shorter mash time (30 to 40 minute rest instead of
60+).  Less time also means less temperature decay.
 ==> quicker brew day with "more consistent" mash temperature.

I don't necessarily agree with the first statement that resting at 104F
first, infusing to 140F and then 158F leads to a dilute mash.  Accepting the
ratio above as reasonable/normal, it is possible to step mash and not exceed
these values during the final rest.  The calculations are not difficult, but
are iterative because temperature loss is dependant on the thermal capacity
of the mash (amount of water present and grain during each phase).  Using
boiling water for the infusions reduces the amount of water required.

I've written my own brewing software to perform iterative calculations with
very good success.  After Big Brew 2003, others observed how the
calculations simplified my brewing day and they requested that I teach them
how to perform these calculations.  After a year, I'm final getting around
to their request.  I'm preparing a paper, to compliment the presentation.
In the paper I give an example of a 50/60/70 mash with a final water to
grist ratio of 1.9 qts/lb.  In this example, the solution converged with an
initial step of 0.96 qts/lb (thick, but within reason).  For a 40/60/70
mash, I suspect the first step would be very thick, closer to 0.5 qts/lb.
Contact me off line if you would like a draft copy of the paper.  The final
version will not be ready until July.

Only when I'm trying to brew light colored lagers from high carbonate water
do I use an acid rest.  Unless brewing beers with a high portion of
adjuncts, protein rests are not necessary.  In general, I agree rest below
140F can be avoided.

Dan Morey
Club BABBLE  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi


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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:17:56 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Head Retention 

On 7 April, Jeff Renner replied to my post where I requested help with a 
head retention problem.  Sorry to post and run Jeff, but shortly after 
posting my question I split for the mountains and spent 3 days on the Salmon 
river fishing for Steelhead trout.  Didn't catch anything, but it sure was 
nice to be on the river.  He also points out that I sign my posts with my 
name, but mascarade as my wife.  Not sure why this happens, but will consult 
with SWMBO and sort it out.  Jeff also wonders if I'm the hound or the 
calico...well, I'm a veterinarian by training and have been informed by 
SWMBO that both the dog (walker hound blue tick cross, rescued from 
abandonment) and the cat (another rescue) have been spoiled entirely by me.  
I named the winery / brewery in their honor.

I'm now catching up on a very interesting thread.

Yes, I mash using the GFix 40/60/70 schedule.  I use 1.33 quarts of water 
per pound of grain, and boost the temperature steps using a propane burner.  
I don't have AoBT with me right now, but I do remember GFix recommending a 
step around 95-100 F to break down beta glucans.  I hate stuck mashes, so I 
almost always use this step.  I also remember reading in Noonan's New 
Brewing Lager Beers that doughing in at room temperature prevents dough 
balls.  So, I mash in at room temp (scoop grain into water a little at a 
time and mix well), let the grains soak a bit, boost to 96Fx 30 min, then 
140 x 30 min, then the final rest x 30 minutes or more typically 1 hour, 
final temperature determined by the style of beer.  I try to get through the 
120 - 140F range fairly quickly to prevent excess protein degredation.  I 
measure wort pH using a cheap but calibrated pH meter.  I measure the pH of 
the wort at room temperature after doughing in before the first temperature 
boost.  I allow the grains to settle and insert the probe in the top layer 
of liquor.  I adjust mash pH with lactic acid.  I usually experience 80-86% 
efficiency.


Any insight on the head retention problem now that you have more details?

I purchased PBW for the first time a few weeks ago and haven't had a chance 
to use it.  How long will diluted PBW maintain it's activity?  Obviously, 
the activity will be reduced in the presence of large amounts of organic 
matter, but when do you pitch it and make up a new batch?

As Steve suggests in his 12 April post, I will use a boiling water infusion 
to rapidly boost from 40C to 60 C.

While in the mountains, I managed to collect 14 gallons of snow melt run-off 
from a fast moving mountain stream.  It's time to brew my first lager.  
Would snow melt require mineral additions?

Wired up the RANCO temperature controler last night, which leads me to 
another question.  I plan on using the temp controler to run a used 
commercial True beverage refrigerator out in my garage.  The True 
refrigerator has a fan that runs all the time when plugged into the GFI 
outlet in the garage and the compressor cuts on and off as needed.  When I 
use the temp controler to control the True, the power shuts off completely, 
shutting the fan off.  Will cycling the power, which cycles the fan on and 
off, hurt the refrigerator?

Will fire up the GPS for the Renerian calculator tonight.

Todd in Idaho



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