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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Low Alcohol Brewing ("Steve Smith")
  historic beer ("Steve B")
  RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There? (gkrone)
  RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There? ("Adam M. Bumpus")
  Low (and no) alcohol brewing ("Strom C. Thacker")
  Layered Dry hopping (Chet Nunan)
  Diabetics and beer ("Harlan Nilsen")
  False Bottom buckling due to expansion ("River Bound Brewing")
  Sunshine challenge (Marc Sedam)
  RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There? (Richard Seyler)
  Re: Fix and the 40C Rest (Joe Fasel)
  Re: use of thermometer in beer (Jeff Renner)
  Recipe Translation / Combrune & the Thermometer (Glenn Raudins)
  Cloudy and yeasty! ("Mike Eyre")


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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:28:08 -0600
From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com>
Subject: RE: Low Alcohol Brewing

On Ken Schwartz's "Index of Stuff" homepage for homebrewers, found at
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/#Articles, there is a link to his "Low- and
No- Alcohol Brewing Techniques" article, detailing low alcohol brewing
techniques for homebrewers and commercial brewers.  Maybe it would be of
help for you.

good luck and good times to you,
Steve Smith




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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:32:30 -0400
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: historic beer

I remember reading a while back that Williamsburg Brewing (Virginia) was 
doing some historic recipes.  I unfortunately cannot check out their website 
as I sit at work and it is being blocked by the "MAN".  Their address is 
www.williamsburgbrewing.com.
S



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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:13:38 -0500
From: gkrone at wi.rr.com
Subject: RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There?

Steve,

I had the same thing happen a couple years ago when I was diagnosed 
as a borderline diabetic.  I have continued to enjoy a bottle almost 
every night of either homebrew or commercial while keeping my blood 
glucose level well below the recommended levels.

Diet and exercise help me keep the weight down and the diabetes in 
control.  Just keep an eye on your blood glucose levels and control 
what you eat.  

Good Luck

Gary Krone
gkrone at wi.rr.com


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I got a little bit of bad news last week, when the Dr. told me I had
type II diabetes.  It's not too bad yet, but if left unchecked, I could
expect it to worsen.  Immediately I thought this would be the end of my
homebrewing endeavor, which for what it's worth, is my absolute favorite
pastime outside of spending quality time with my family.  Homebrewing has
become part of what I am, and what I most like to do.

The Doc said I need to lose about 30 pounds, and keep it off.  He wants me
on the lean side of thin.  I then asked him the question I was most
dreading, "What about beer?"
"Well, it's a carb, and you'll have to treat it as such.  As part of an
overall dietary plan, in moderation it should be OK.", he replied.

Pretty much music to my ears.  So for the next couple of weeks, I will be
reducing my carbs and fat drastically, and working on a new "structured"
diet.

Are there any other diabetic hombrewers out there, and if so, how do you
manage your disease while still fully enjoying this wonderful hobby?
I've read that alcholol reduces blood glucose levels.  Cinnamon is being
researched as a possible adjunct cure for diabetes.  It sounds like my next
brew will have to be a cinnamon big beer.  That may be cure for diabetes!

Steven P.  Bellner
sbellner a t chartertn.net








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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:21:32 -0500
From: "Adam M. Bumpus" <adam at bump.us>
Subject: RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There?

Steven wrote concerning Type II diabetics and homebrewing:

I am not a diabetic myself, but my wife and father-in-law are, so I have
some experience on the matter.

You are more than likely going to have to reduce your beer consumption,
especially during the initial lose 30 pounds phase. If fact, you will
probably find that you are reducing your consumption of darn near everything
but rabbit food during that period. The good news is that you do get used to
the smaller portions and once your weight stabilizes you can eat a little
bit more of most things.

This month's issue of BYO has several articles on low carb brewing. You
might want to get your hands on a copy of that.

In more general terms you will probably want to focus on brewing beers that
allow you to have one or two without too great of a sacrifice in the
non-liquid bread department. This probably means avoiding styles such as
dopplebock and scotch ale except as an occasional treat (or punishment
depending on your tastes). Dry stouts are a good choice as are most of the
session beer recipes discussed by Mr. Renner last week.

You might also consider trying your hand at fermenting things other than
grain. Simple sugars fermented dry leave only trace amounts of carbohydrates
behind. Therefore this may mean that you have been presented with an
opportunity to try your hand at mead, cider and wine.

Beware of the things which you might eat while drinking beer. Most of them
are terrible for you. I've found that popcorn can be reasonably satisfying
due to it's large bulk for a relatively modest carbohydrate content.
Tortilla chips and snack crackers are often have a deceptively large
carbohydrate content for a seemingly small bulk. If you are not on sodium
restriction nuts count as a meat serving rather than a carbohydrate serving.

As a caution to your remark concerning alcohol lowering your blood sugar,
the symptoms of hypoglycemia are similar to those of drunkenness. The fact
that alcohol can lower your blood sugar could cause your drinking companions
to incorrectly assume that your slurred speech and inability to remain
upright on your bar stool are caused by drunkenness rather than diabetes and
may cause them to take incorrect action. If you don't drink on an empty
stomach, keep your glucose meter handy and avoid overindulging this should
not be a problem.

Hopefully my ramblings here have been of some use. Good luck to you with
your brewing, weight loss and diabetes management.

Adam Bumpus
Cedar Rapids, IA




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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:46:22 -0400
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <strom at wort.org>
Subject: Low (and no) alcohol brewing

Dave Logdson from Wyeast recently made an interesting post on the 
AHA's TechTalk.  I hope he doesn't mind me quoting it here:

"Wyeast does produce an N/A Yeast; Wyeast #0058 available
on special order at this time. It is a specific strain that does not
ferment maltose. Formulation of beers with that in consideration
(low levels of pale malt, and higher levels of malts with low
fermentables or residual dextrose) with an original gravity of
about 1.018 can be very flavorful, and not sweet or worty. Please
contact your local supplier or Wyeast for your nearest source.

David Logsdon
Wyeast"

Has anyone tried this yeast?  I'd like to brew a N/A beer if it's 
feasible to actually brew a good one.

Strom
Newton, MA


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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: Layered Dry hopping

I'm thinking of trying to enhance my dry hopping by
changing the hops weekly in the secondary. This would
be for a Double IPA, so I'm planning 3 weeks of
secondary aging. 

For instance, dry hop in the first week with the more
aggressive American hops (1 oz. ea. Cascade &
Amarillo), then pulling those and dropping in some
traditional English hops (1 oz. ea. Fuggles & Kent
Goldings) for a week, then some Continental Euro hops
(1 oz. ea. Saaz & Hallertauer) for a week.  

Or, to use 3 complimentary hops each week, say week 1
Amarillo, week 2 Centennial, week 3 Cascade. 

Hence the "layered" effect.  I feel that this may
strengthen and round out the dry hop aroma while
avoiding any "grassiness" from extended time on the
same hops. 

Potential Downsides - excessive oxygenation from
pulling & replacing the hops ea. week;
noncomplimentary combinations of hops; waste of money
cause some hops get overpowered and thus add nothing.

What thoughts, anyone?

Chet N.






	
		


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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:57:48 -0500
From: "Harlan Nilsen" <ramnrah at nebi.com>
Subject: Diabetics and beer

Steven P. Bellsner wrote that he has just found out that he is now a type 2
diabetic.  Steve, join the crowd!

I have known this and been working with it for 8 years now and it is not the
end of the world.  I was depressed just as you are when I first found out
about it but have learned to live with it.  Yes, there are some things you
need to do and the first thing is to begin a healthy lifestyle and you will
find that you will be eating much more healthy than before.

As for beer------I brew and drink the brew I make.  I do work at making much
drier beers however.  I am an all grain brewer and I control my mashes so I
end up with FG's below 1.010.
I also am a little careful of the amount I drink and do envy those that
write here about having 1 or more beers every evening.  Now I enjoy a good
beer as much as anybody but mostly limit myself to 1 or 2 a week.  In a way
this really adds to the enjoyment as it is a real treat.  Just last night
was our club meeting and I actually enjoyed more than that as most of our
members make some really great stuff.  My last brew was a mild ale with an
OG of .036 and an FG of .008.  Most of the members thought it was a much
bigger beer than it is and really enjoyed it.

Cheer up----you'll eventually learn what you can tolerate and you'll also
learn to eat accordingly so you can enjoy your beer.

Cheers,
Harlan
32nd St. Brewery
Kearney, NE




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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:21:15 -0500
From: "River Bound Brewing" <RiverBound at charter.net>
Subject: False Bottom buckling due to expansion

Anyone ever have this problem?
I bought a really nice hinged stainless false bottom off eBay from a
reputable seller of quality home brew equipment.  It seems as though it's
designed to sit right on top of the weld line at the transition from the keg
wall to the cupped bottom.  It's a headache to get in place and the first
time I used it the thing expanded when my mash hit about 155 and the hinge
bucked in the wrong direction.  Anyway, I had to ice it down when the brew
was done and beat the hell out of it with a sledge hammer to get it out.  I
have since grinded about 1/8" off the circumference of the unit but it still
buckles up on me.

Question:  Would it make sense to grind off even more so that it actually
sits on the cupped bottom of the keg?  Are some false bottoms sold this way?

Thanks in advance.

Pat
- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/2004



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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:50:34 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Sunshine challenge

Just wanted to post a word of support for the Sunshine Challenge.  I was 
invited down there, along with Dave Burley and Jeff Renner, as "special 
guests" of the Challenge and was treated like a prince.  The pub crawl 
was fantastic and the infamous "beer truck" was too impressive to put 
into words.  And the hotel rates just can't be beat. 

Absolutely worth the trip.  Great, great fun.  The only bad part was 
that I had to leave early Sunday morning instead of finishing off the 
judging.

- -- 
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:13:03 -0400
From: Richard Seyler <tad at vt.edu>
Subject: RE: Are There Any Diabetic Homebrewers Out There?

Steven P. Bellner asks:
>
>Are there any other diabetic hombrewers out there, and if so, how do you
>manage your disease while still fully enjoying this wonderful hobby?
>I've read that alcholol reduces blood glucose levels.  Cinnamon is being
>researched as a possible adjunct cure for diabetes.  It sounds like my next
>brew will have to be a cinnamon big beer.  That may be cure for diabetes!
>
Steve, I have had Type I diabetes for 24 years and have been brewing for just 
over half of that time.  Just as it is for non-diabetics, moderation is the 
key for me.  As your doc mentioned, there are carbs in beer that need to be 
considered for blood glucose (BG) monitoring.  But if weight loss is a primary 
goal, keep in mind that the alcohol contains calories, too.  I think most 
texts consider about 7 calories per gram.

Concerning the BG-lowering effect of alcohol, it seems to be temporary 
_in_my_experience_ (YMMV).  During moderate drinking sessions, I notice lower 
than expected BG levels.  However, several hours later (next morning), levels 
will be higher than I expect, considering how low they were at the previous 
(evening) readings.  I think the most dangerous aspect of this is the time 
while drinking when the levels are lower than I would predict.  It is a time 
that I am less likely to recognize a low BG level.  This consideration is 
particularly important for those of us who are insulin-dependent and therefore 
"artifically" infusing our blood with insulin to match our BG.

If I'll be drinking a few beers, I'll generally adjust my insulin levels such 
that they will be a little low during the time I'll be drinking (and just 
after), and will increase the amount that will be in my bloodstream 10-12 
hours later.  I use an insulin pump so this is a pretty simple matter for me.

>So for the next couple of weeks, I will be
>reducing my carbs and fat drastically, and working on a new "structured"
>diet.
>
I think it is largely a lifestyle adaptation.  That is, I would try not to 
think of it as a drastic change for the next few weeks, but a whole new 
outlook on eating and living, that will become the new norm.  Forgive me if it 
sounds like I am preaching; I don't mean to, and everyone is different.  But, 
for me, my diet is something that I have to be comfortable with, something 
that fits with who I am.  Otherwise, I could never stick to it.  In contrast 
to strict adherence to some particular diet and exercise regimen, I think of 
it as practicing wellness.  And it does take practice!
- --Tad




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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:25:21 -0600
From: Joe Fasel <jhf at lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Fix and the 40C Rest

In HBD #4518, Steve <-S at adelphia.net> writes

> It's impossible to parse out the full details from AoBT, but it
> appears he infuses 0.4qt/lb of boiling water to hit 60C from 40C (16L
> boiling /20kg malt).  If I am doing the math right George must have added
> only 0.3 qt/lb at mash-in - which seems improbable.  In short the figures
> for "series 2" in AoBT look wrong.  The 16L boiling water infusion is NOT
> sufficient to raise the mash temp from 40C to 60C (20kg of malt  at  40C + X
> liter of mash-in water  at  40C + 16L  at 100C => ... @ 60C) unless the amount
> of mash-in liquid (X) is incredibly small.

I don't have AoBT, but from your figures above, I think you do
have a mistake in your math.  Using 0.275 for the specific heat
of malted grain, I calculate the initial mass of water for that
20kg of malt to be 42.5kg.  In English units, this means an initial
ratio of 1.02 qt/lb, with an addition of 0.38 qt/lb (that's quarts of
water at maximum density, of course).

Now, there does seem to be a problem with this missive:

http://realbeer.com/spencer/FAQ/Fix-mash.html

These numbers don't achieve a temperature of 60C:

    24 lbs of base malt and 6.5 gallons water at 40C
    add 3 gallons boiling water and 3 lbs specialty grains

But if you make it 6 gallons of water initially and add 3.5 gallons
of boiling water and 3 lbs of grain at 20C, again using 0.275 for
the specific heat of the grain, the temperature after the
transition is in fact 60C on the nose.  This is again an initial
infusion of 1.0 qt/lb with an addition of 0.4 qt/lb of boiling
water (plus a little grain).

This is at sea level, of course.  In my case, I have to start
a little thicker and/or end up a little thinner.  One should also
take the thermal mass of the mash tun into account.  And of course,
you have to decide whether the acid rest is worthwhile in the first
place.

Cheers,
- --Joe

Joseph H. Fasel, Ph.D.
University of California
Los Alamos National Laboratory


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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:28:26 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: use of thermometer in beer

At 1:29 AM -0400 4/21/04, Peter A. Ensminger stayed up late wrote a 
reply to my post on Combrune and cc'd me, but he couldn't post it, 
and I can't seem to get it in the queue either.  So, in case it never 
shows up, I've quoted it in its entirety:

>In HBD #4524,  Jeff Renner quotes HBDer Glenn Raudin as saying that 
>Michael Combrune "was the first author to advocate using the 
>thermometer in brewing." According to my sources [Z. Knoflicek, et 
>al., 1995, Pivovarske Muzeum V Plzni, Plzen, Czech Republic; The 
>Brewery Museum, Pilsen, Czech Republic], a Czech brewer named 
>Frantisek Ondrej Poupe (1753-1805) was the first brewer to use a 
>thermometer.

I suspect that there was a good bit of parallel and simultaneous 
application of new technology to brewing in the 18th century.  No 
doubt there is also some chauvinism involved in making claims, and 
English speaking historians are more likely to know Combrune than 
Poupe.  But I note that Poupe would have been only nine years old 
when Combrune published in 1762.  He might well have been a brewer's 
apprentice at that age but is unlikely to have been making much 
contribution in the advancement of the craft.

>I have not seen Combrune's book, but would also say Glenn Raudin's 
>statement that Combrune's book was the "most pivotal book in 
>brewing" sounds hyperbolical. FYI, Czech brewer Poupe is also 
>credited with writing the very first brewing textbook. Haven't seen 
>this one either, so I'm not sure how it compares with Combrune's 
>book.

Again, the dates are in Combrune's favor.

Somewhere in my library I am sure I have something about this. 
Meanwhile, there is a good annotated bibliography of the history of 
brewing by James Sumner, PhD, a University of Manchester (UK) history 
of technology lecturer at 
http://www.jbsumner.com/pages/brewinghistory/bibliog_primary.html. 
He does not list Poupe, but, again, he is English and his thesis was 
on the history of British brewing industry.

Sumner has these entries for Combrune:

"* Combrune, Michael (1758) An Essay on Brewing, with a View of 
Establishing the Principles of the Art. London, xviii, 214.  First 
known brewery text to recommend the thermometer.  A highly 
theoretical chemical work rooted in the writings of Boerhaave (it 
formed the basis of the "Theory" section of Combrune 1762), it 
outlines Combrune's view of the relationship between malting and 
mashing heats, but gives little direct quantitative guidance. 

"* Combrune, Michael (1762) The Theory and Practice of Brewing. 
London, 2, vi, xii, 299 [quarto].  A new edition of Combrune 1758 
("Theory") plus a longer section ("Practice") which gives countless 
worked examples of Combrune's programme for the rational management 
of heat, invoking various quantitative relations between malting and 
mashing heats, hop rate, maturation time etc, with all values 
rendered in degrees of Fahrenheit's thermometer.  The work was known 
to many later brewery manual-writers although much of Combrune's 
scheme appears to have been discredited swiftly.

   "* (1804) new edition "corrected and greatly enlarged". London, 
xiv, 367.  Does not take account of the saccharometric innovations of 
the 1780s."

He also lists other subsequent publications that cited Combrune.

Thanks to David Sweeney for his email pointing out this attribution 
from the Monticello site that I gave yesterday 
http://www.monticello.org/reports/life/beer.html :

"Jefferson's correspondence with Krafft apparently excited his interest
in brewing, and the next fall he purchased Michael Combrune's Theory and
Practice of Brewing, which introduced the scientific approach of using a
thermometer for the malting and brewing processes."

I guess that's enough beating up on Peter for now.  ;-)

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:55:43 -0400
From: Glenn Raudins <glenn at raudins.com>
Subject: Recipe Translation / Combrune & the Thermometer

In Digest #4524, Jeff Renner writes in response to Bob Hall's query on a
George Washington molasses beer:

>I've always been suspicious of this recipe, quite aside from your
>question about the amount of hops to use.  Without malt it is not 
>going to produce a beer that is typical of even Washington's time but 
>rather a something else - a pseudo-beer that is much cheaper and 
>easier to make than a true beer.

Clearly an all molasses beer would not be indicative of all beers of the
time but the recipe appears to be authentic in the context that similar
recipes appear in other books.  For example, in Samuel M'Harry's 1809
American distilling book, he gives a recipe for Treacle or Molasses Beer
which is simply molasses and water.  He recommends to use a hand full of
malt and hops if it is to be kept for a period of time.  Another
reference comes from Every Man his Own Brewer, 1768, which refers to a
the people of "Pensylvania" making a molasses beer (just molasses and
water with some ginger in it.)  Your description of "pseudo-beer" is a
good one, because when the recipe appeared in 1830 in the Town and
Country Brewery book, it appeared under the title "An American Recipe to
Make a Wholesome Cheap Drink."  That said, there appears to be enough
period evidence to confirm that people did indeed produce the beverage. 
Bob, make it and send Jeff a bottle!

>In HBD #4524,  Jeff Renner quotes HBDer Glenn Raudin as saying that 
>Michael Combrune "was the first author to advocate using the 
>thermometer in brewing." According to my sources [Z. Knoflicek, et 
>al., 1995, Pivovarske Muzeum V Plzni, Plzen, Czech Republic; The 
>Brewery Museum, Pilsen, Czech Republic], a Czech brewer named 
>Frantisek Ondrej Poupe (1753-1805) was the first brewer to use a 
>thermometer.

As Jeff correctly notes, Combrune's first work, An Essay on Brewing,
which was the foundation for his thermometer based theories was
published in 1758.  If those dates for Poupe are correct, he would be 5
years old.  Combrune himself claims to have started his investigations
in 1741.  For what it is worth, let's reprint Poupe's book and then the
people can decide! :-) (Actually it could be a very interesting read
from the Pilsner point of view.)

Parallel development was also quite common in brewing, as first use of
the Saccharometer could be attributed to Richardson or Baverstock but it
is a bit unsure.

>I have not seen Combrune's book, but would also say Glenn Raudin's 
>statement that Combrune's book was the "most pivotal book in 
>brewing" sounds hyperbolical. FYI, Czech brewer Poupe is also 
>credited with writing the very first brewing textbook. Haven't seen 
>this one either, so I'm not sure how it compares with Combrune's 
>book.

Hyperbolical! Me? :-) Honestly, I would say that getting people to use a
thermometer to control the brewing process has got to be one of the
major turning points in brewing technology in the history of brewing.  

Glenn


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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:37:58 -0400
From: "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Cloudy and yeasty!

Hello, 

I brewed a fairly standard ESB at the beginning of the month, and with
the exception of blanking out while measuring the Crystal Malt (I put
too much in...), it seemed to work all right. I veered from my usual
course of corn sugar use while bottling in Grolsh type bottles and
instead used DME in it's place, albeit a bit more DME than corn sugar as
it normal, or so I'm told. So, yesterday marked the 1 week point of the
beer being in bottles, and so I tried one out.. And it was all suspended
yeast (I think..) and cloudy as all get out like I've never had before.
I had it in the fridge for about a day prior to opening it.. What gives?

Mike




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---