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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Texan Seeking Alaskan Amber ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Hop flavor/aroma in APA (Randy Ricchi)
  Cloves... ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  6th Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open ("H. Dowda")
  re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA (Michael Owings)
  Re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA ("Richard S. Sloan")
  Commander SAAZ - Time to get your entries in! ("Glenn Exline")
  hop aroma and mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
  MCAB Info? ("Al Folsom")
  RE: Clove flavor in wheat beer (jason)
  As to some Qs ("-S")


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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:21:34 -0800
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: Texan Seeking Alaskan Amber

John,

Well... we know that none of the mega brews qualify.  Neither do Lone Star,
Pearl, or Shiner Bock (although I like Shiner Bock;  it's just not a real
bock).  I guess you'll just have to move up here with us Alaskans who can
enjoy an Amber every day. ;>)  I have no idea if it tastes like an
authentic alt, but it is good.

John
In the largest state in the union.
Wasilla, AK (home of the northern-most brew pub in the western hemisphere)





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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:07:05 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Hop flavor/aroma in APA

John Harvey wonders how to get more hop flavor and aroma out of his
beer:

John,
I can't understand why you don't have hop flavor or aroma in a beer
hopped as heavy as that. My first thought was hot side aeration, but you
say that the malt character is fine, and I think that would be
diminished as well if you had an HSA problem.
Could be less-than-fresh hops?

Anyway, if you haven't bottled/kegged yet, make a hop tea and add it to
the brew. Don't use water - rather, take a pint or so of the beer, bring
it to a boil and then remove it from the burner. add a half ounce of
hops contained in a mesh hop bag. For a minute or three, gently submerge
the hops in the hot beer, using a couple of kitchen spoons. I like to
squeeze the hop bag between the spoons, squeezing and releasing several
times. It acts like a sponge, absorbing beer and then releasing it as
the bag is squeezed.

You'll want to do this carefully so as not to splash and create HSA.

After a few minutes, you can remove the bag, squeezing it to get all the
beer out of the hops. Then dump the tea back into the main body of beer.
The volume is so small compared to the main batch that the tea will
instantly be cooled. I never bother to cool it first.

You'll get a lot of flavor as well as aroma with this method.

Randy Ricchi
Hancock , MI



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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:36:20 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Cloves...

I had a small error in my posting about the "clove" rest to develop 
ferulic acid.  The optimum temperature is not 40C (104F) but 43-45C 
(110-114F).  Ferulic acid is the chemical that the Weizen yeast turns 
into 4-vinyl guaiacol (4VG), which is clove flavored.

=S


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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: 6th Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open

Early Warning Alert!

December 4, 2004
Columbia, S.C.
CBOY Final Competition
Cash Prizes

http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo6.htm


		


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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:04:01 -0500
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA

John Harvey wrote:
==================
 > Perhaps I can improve this beer by dry-hopping, which
 > I hadn't planned on doing but will.  But what about
 > hop flavor?  Any suggestions on how I can fix/improve
 > this beer?  How should I go about this?  Any help is
 > much appreciated!

Just dry hopping it should do nicely.

While it's possible to have flavor without much aroma, I think it's 
pretty much impossible to have aroma without flavor! The dry hopping 
should impart both in spades -- depending on how much hops you use.

Hope that helps -- m
- -- 
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:37:53 -0700
From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: Re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA

>> on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) John Harvey wrote
>> there was nearly no hop flavor and not a bit of aroma.
>> Any suggestions on how I can fix/improve this beer?

I haven't done this myself but if you willing to experiment a bit, you
could make a bit of a hop tea and add it to your keg. Just boil some water
(1L or so wont drop your gravity too far when adding to a 5 gal batch) and
do your hop flavor additions for the same amount of time you would in a
normal batch. Get some fresh hops for this. Maybe the hops from the less
than flavorful batch were old?




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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:17:37 -0400
From: "Glenn Exline" <gexline at cfl.rr.com>
Subject:  Commander SAAZ - Time to get your entries in!

Fellow home brewers, only 11 more days until the entry deadline for the 10TH
annual Commander SAAZ Interplanetary Homebrew Blastoff! The competition is
scheduled for Saturday July 31 2004, and is hosted by the SpaceCoast
Associates for the Advancement of Zymurgy (SAAZ) and is an AHA and BJCP
sanctioned homebrew competition. The competition is open to all BJCP
categories and a Best of show trophy will be awarded for both Best of Show
Beer, and Best of Show Mead/Cider.  (A picture of the trophy is posted on
the website!)

This year we hope to top the 350 entry mark (last year was 309!). To make
entering easier we're providing on-line electronic entry and will be
accepting payments via PayPal. While all this automation will make it easier
than ever to enter, you will still have to send in your beers!

More info is available on the Commander SAAZ page at http://www.saaz.org.
Start setting away some of your best brews and come compete for the
Commander's Cosmic Best of Show Trophy. 





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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:54:46 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: hop aroma and mash hopping

John Harvey talks about lacking hop aroma to a seriously hopped 
APA...the first thought that came to mind was that the hops may be old 
and lack a big aroma component.  Sometimes those little foil packets of 
hops can be misleading as they smell good when you open them.  But if 
they're old that same wonderful aroma just isn't there later on.  How 
old were your hops?

As for mash hopping, I think you can safely assume they add NO 
appreciable bitterness to the final beer.  I can't say they add none, 
because I don't rightly know...but in my anecdotal tastings of several 
CAP recipes over the years I never noticed additional bitterness. 

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:08:10 -0400
From: "Al Folsom" <alan at folsoms.net>
Subject: MCAB Info?

I had an entry qualify for the MCAB at the past Buzz-Off, but have no idea
where or when to send it.  Anyone know where this should go, or if it's too 
late?

Cheers - Al


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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:04:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: RE: Clove flavor in wheat beer

I'm on vacation and don't have my favorite sources at my fingertips so I
might get a bit of this mixed up.

Hefeweizen is a beer you have to make right yeast selection, use the right
mash schedule and control the ferment temperature to get good beer. It's
hard to think of any other beer where these choices and decisions are more
important.

First the yeast, Wyeast's 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen yeast and White Labs
WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale yeast are the best choices. Both strains produce the
banana and clove flavors. After those two, 3056 Bavarian Wheat yeast and
WLP380 Hefeweizen IV Ale yeast are acceptable. These last two aren't
nearly the banana and clove producers the first two are. I use the WLP300
most of the time.

Mash schedule is important because you must have adequate ferulic acid.
This is the chemical that the yeast will convert to 4-vinyl guaiacol, the
clove note. Ferlic acid is produced at 111-113F. It's kind of slow so rest
there for at least 30 minutes. This temperature is also close enough to
the beta glucan rest (105F). This will help break down the gumminess of
the mash and aid in the sparge. I use 113-150 mash schedule, another
option is to do a 105-113-150F schedule.

Now on to the ferment. The banana is an ester and is controlled by ferment
temperature. The warmer the ferment the more banana. I like to keep my
fermenters at about 68F.

- ------------

So to answer Augie Altenbaumer's question on how to get more clove and
less banana, try a longer rest at 111-113F and a lower ferment
temperature. Maybe try another strain of yeast.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Temporarly in Jacksonville Beach, about [900,170] Rennerian




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Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:30:00 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: As to some Qs

Since traffic is low after the HBD hiatus and the typical summer
doldrums ....

==========
re: Question about yeast
Gary Smith recites his very positive experience with a stirrer ...

>I just made a recent IPA using
> Wyeast's London 1968 dated a year ago.

It's not terribly difficult IMO to resurrect ancient yeast cultures but I'd
warn
you that extreme sanitation procedures should be used or else plan on
plating
out a pure culture.   It's very easy to step up an infection too.

As for stirrers ... they are very effective and well worth the investment.
For a starter in a flask you can cover the top w/ filter paper get a lot of
oxygen inclusion - produces great starters.  I've even placed a 5g carboy
on a large plate stirrer when using very flocculent yeast (like Wy1968) and
the results were excellent with fast and complete attenuation.  Tho' closed
the stirred ferment drives off excess CO2  (a yeast inhibitor) and improves
the yeast/extract contact.

> Married men live longer than single men,  [...]
It just seems longer Gary !

=======

re: Brewing in small batches (~2 gallons)
Oisin Boydell asks ...

> Are there any problems associated with brewing smaller quantites

No.  When I have time I often experiment w/ different methods, ingredients
and yeasts in side-by-side comparison and unless I am confident that
the results will taste great I use small batch sizes.  As small as 2L.
The difficulty is in having appropriate size fermenters.

> I found a store that sells 2 gallon (10 litre) plastic kegs so there
> would be no problem with equipment.

You can also find 2.5gal/10L glass carboys and 2.5gal cornelius kegs
and these are a joy to use.

A few points on plastic ... except for some very new beverage
containers plastics will allow a little oxygen ingress.  This is OK
during fermentation but you can't store finished beer in (most) plastics
for very long - gets very stale.  You must stay on top of your fermentation
and get the beer bottled (I assume you bottle condition) ASAP if you use
plastic for the late fermentation.

===========

Re: Clove flavor in wheat beer
Augie Altenbaumer asks

> I've been working on brewing German wheat beers
 ...
> I am getting more fruit flavor than clove flavor.

FWIW Auggie the fresh hefe-weizens I had in Germany were all balanced on the
ester/fruity/bannana side and tho' the clove flavor was clearly present it
was behind the esters.  I find some of the very clovey US weizens and some
of the pseudo-belgians off-putting and almost medicinal.  Still some styles
cal for it.

> Here is
> what I think I gathered from past posts: Yeast type
> and pitching conditions will determine this balance
> more than anything.

Yeast genetics determine their ability to produce esters and clove flavor.
The fermentation conditions will impact esters greatly and the wort
composition will impact clove flavor potential.   Even among clovey weizen
yeasts there is an order of magnitude difference in the amount of 4VG(clove
flavor) produced from the same wort.

> I believe my pitching conditions
> might be causing more fruit than clove flavor.
Pitching conditions will effect the ester levels, not so much the clove/4VG.

> I have been using Wyeast 3068 for my wheat beers and
Good yeast tho' it's a bit finicky in my experience.

> I have been pitching at ~75F and
> then cooling down to 68F.[...]
>  I believe that I read in
> the archives that pitching cooler and then warming up
> to the fermentation temp would encourage more
> development of clove flavor.

Not likely I think.  Yeast produce more esters when warm and also in
stressed conditions but yeast convert ferulic acid into 4 vinyl guiaicol
(4VG clove flavor) as a means of extracting a bit of energy from the simple
phenolic acid(ferulic).

If you read over the 'rules' for a great fermentation (pitching level,
temps, nutrition) these are the same conditions needed for minimal esters.
The only deviation is that cooling a ferment below ideal levels will also
reduce esters even more.   If you want to reduce esters pitch big into cool
wort and ferment cool.  Do *NOT* pitch into warm 75F wort and then cool.
This causes the yeast to create weaker cell membranes with the O2 available
early on - and then they are stressed at the cooler temp - produces more
esters and underattenuates.  A secondary issue - most weizen yeast are VERY
susceptible to autolysis and pitching warm then cooling can create bad
autolysis conditions.

The clove flavor story is complex too.  Yeast have a
phenolic-off-flavor(POF) gene which creates a phenolic decarboxylase enzyme.
All S.c yeast have the gene but it's non-function in most brewing yeast and
the conditions for genetic expression makes the amount of clovey flavor vary
from yeast to yeast.  Ferulic acid is a simple phenolic acid that appears in
grain and when decarboxylated produces the clovey flavor.  Cinnamic acid is
another and decarboxylates to styrene which is horribly medicinal.  The
ferulic and cinnamic are attached to cell wall polysaccharides in grain and
these come free to a variable extent during the mash.  To maximize the 4VG
you'd want grain/malt with more ferulic then mash for maximum ferulic
extraction..  Wheat has far more than barley and German wheat beers use
50-100% wheat malt.  To extract as much of the ferulic as possible,
=Spencer correctly notes that a low temp rest (around 43C/ 109F as I recall)
causes an enzymatic release of ferulic.  Traditional German weizens undergo
a mash-in ~35-37C and a decoction w/ 20-25 minute boil according to Kunze
and that may be effective in extracting ferulic too.  Fermentaton conditions
probably impact ferulic conversion rate, but I'm not aware of any solid
rules in that regard.  Ferulic acid is converted fairly early in the
fermentation process.  The 4VG degrades over time and a too-clovey beer may
taste a lot better in a month or two - tho' hefes are best very fresh IMO.

Traditional German wheats beers are pitched at normal levels, fermented warm
(as high as 25-30C!) and fast  in open fermenters.  Kunze suggests pitching
at 12C(54F) and fermenting at 13-21C(55-70F) in modern practice.  6-7%
speise is added and the result is bottle conditioned w/o lagering.  Keep in
mind that the German practice is intended to give dominant esters.
Fermenting on the cooler side should reduce esters relative to 4VG.


 fwiw,
 -S



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