HOMEBREW Digest #4557 Sun 11 July 2004

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  Re: Texan Seeking Alaskan Amber ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Hop flavor/aroma in APA (Randy Ricchi)
  Cloves... ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  6th Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open ("H. Dowda")
  re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA (Michael Owings)
  Re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA ("Richard S. Sloan")
  Commander SAAZ - Time to get your entries in! ("Glenn Exline")
  hop aroma and mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
  MCAB Info? ("Al Folsom")
  RE: Clove flavor in wheat beer (jason)
  As to some Qs ("-S")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:21:34 -0800 From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net> Subject: Re: Texan Seeking Alaskan Amber John, Well... we know that none of the mega brews qualify. Neither do Lone Star, Pearl, or Shiner Bock (although I like Shiner Bock; it's just not a real bock). I guess you'll just have to move up here with us Alaskans who can enjoy an Amber every day. ;>) I have no idea if it tastes like an authentic alt, but it is good. John In the largest state in the union. Wasilla, AK (home of the northern-most brew pub in the western hemisphere) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:07:05 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us> Subject: Hop flavor/aroma in APA John Harvey wonders how to get more hop flavor and aroma out of his beer: John, I can't understand why you don't have hop flavor or aroma in a beer hopped as heavy as that. My first thought was hot side aeration, but you say that the malt character is fine, and I think that would be diminished as well if you had an HSA problem. Could be less-than-fresh hops? Anyway, if you haven't bottled/kegged yet, make a hop tea and add it to the brew. Don't use water - rather, take a pint or so of the beer, bring it to a boil and then remove it from the burner. add a half ounce of hops contained in a mesh hop bag. For a minute or three, gently submerge the hops in the hot beer, using a couple of kitchen spoons. I like to squeeze the hop bag between the spoons, squeezing and releasing several times. It acts like a sponge, absorbing beer and then releasing it as the bag is squeezed. You'll want to do this carefully so as not to splash and create HSA. After a few minutes, you can remove the bag, squeezing it to get all the beer out of the hops. Then dump the tea back into the main body of beer. The volume is so small compared to the main batch that the tea will instantly be cooled. I never bother to cool it first. You'll get a lot of flavor as well as aroma with this method. Randy Ricchi Hancock , MI Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:36:20 -0400 From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu> Subject: Cloves... I had a small error in my posting about the "clove" rest to develop ferulic acid. The optimum temperature is not 40C (104F) but 43-45C (110-114F). Ferulic acid is the chemical that the Weizen yeast turns into 4-vinyl guaiacol (4VG), which is clove flavored. =S Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:18:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> Subject: 6th Annual Palmetto State Brewers' Open Early Warning Alert! December 4, 2004 Columbia, S.C. CBOY Final Competition Cash Prizes http://www.sagecat.com/psb/psbo6.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:04:01 -0500 From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com> Subject: re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA John Harvey wrote: ================== > Perhaps I can improve this beer by dry-hopping, which > I hadn't planned on doing but will. But what about > hop flavor? Any suggestions on how I can fix/improve > this beer? How should I go about this? Any help is > much appreciated! Just dry hopping it should do nicely. While it's possible to have flavor without much aroma, I think it's pretty much impossible to have aroma without flavor! The dry hopping should impart both in spades -- depending on how much hops you use. Hope that helps -- m - -- Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web: http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:37:53 -0700 From: "Richard S. Sloan" <rssloan at household.com> Subject: Re: Hop flavor/aroma in APA >> on Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) John Harvey wrote >> there was nearly no hop flavor and not a bit of aroma. >> Any suggestions on how I can fix/improve this beer? I haven't done this myself but if you willing to experiment a bit, you could make a bit of a hop tea and add it to your keg. Just boil some water (1L or so wont drop your gravity too far when adding to a 5 gal batch) and do your hop flavor additions for the same amount of time you would in a normal batch. Get some fresh hops for this. Maybe the hops from the less than flavorful batch were old? Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:17:37 -0400 From: "Glenn Exline" <gexline at cfl.rr.com> Subject: Commander SAAZ - Time to get your entries in! Fellow home brewers, only 11 more days until the entry deadline for the 10TH annual Commander SAAZ Interplanetary Homebrew Blastoff! The competition is scheduled for Saturday July 31 2004, and is hosted by the SpaceCoast Associates for the Advancement of Zymurgy (SAAZ) and is an AHA and BJCP sanctioned homebrew competition. The competition is open to all BJCP categories and a Best of show trophy will be awarded for both Best of Show Beer, and Best of Show Mead/Cider. (A picture of the trophy is posted on the website!) This year we hope to top the 350 entry mark (last year was 309!). To make entering easier we're providing on-line electronic entry and will be accepting payments via PayPal. While all this automation will make it easier than ever to enter, you will still have to send in your beers! More info is available on the Commander SAAZ page at http://www.saaz.org. Start setting away some of your best brews and come compete for the Commander's Cosmic Best of Show Trophy. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:54:46 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: hop aroma and mash hopping John Harvey talks about lacking hop aroma to a seriously hopped APA...the first thought that came to mind was that the hops may be old and lack a big aroma component. Sometimes those little foil packets of hops can be misleading as they smell good when you open them. But if they're old that same wonderful aroma just isn't there later on. How old were your hops? As for mash hopping, I think you can safely assume they add NO appreciable bitterness to the final beer. I can't say they add none, because I don't rightly know...but in my anecdotal tastings of several CAP recipes over the years I never noticed additional bitterness. - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:08:10 -0400 From: "Al Folsom" <alan at folsoms.net> Subject: MCAB Info? I had an entry qualify for the MCAB at the past Buzz-Off, but have no idea where or when to send it. Anyone know where this should go, or if it's too late? Cheers - Al Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:04:03 -0500 (CDT) From: <jason at thehennings.com> Subject: RE: Clove flavor in wheat beer I'm on vacation and don't have my favorite sources at my fingertips so I might get a bit of this mixed up. Hefeweizen is a beer you have to make right yeast selection, use the right mash schedule and control the ferment temperature to get good beer. It's hard to think of any other beer where these choices and decisions are more important. First the yeast, Wyeast's 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen yeast and White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale yeast are the best choices. Both strains produce the banana and clove flavors. After those two, 3056 Bavarian Wheat yeast and WLP380 Hefeweizen IV Ale yeast are acceptable. These last two aren't nearly the banana and clove producers the first two are. I use the WLP300 most of the time. Mash schedule is important because you must have adequate ferulic acid. This is the chemical that the yeast will convert to 4-vinyl guaiacol, the clove note. Ferlic acid is produced at 111-113F. It's kind of slow so rest there for at least 30 minutes. This temperature is also close enough to the beta glucan rest (105F). This will help break down the gumminess of the mash and aid in the sparge. I use 113-150 mash schedule, another option is to do a 105-113-150F schedule. Now on to the ferment. The banana is an ester and is controlled by ferment temperature. The warmer the ferment the more banana. I like to keep my fermenters at about 68F. - ------------ So to answer Augie Altenbaumer's question on how to get more clove and less banana, try a longer rest at 111-113F and a lower ferment temperature. Maybe try another strain of yeast. Cheers, Jason Henning Temporarly in Jacksonville Beach, about [900,170] Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:30:00 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: As to some Qs Since traffic is low after the HBD hiatus and the typical summer doldrums .... ========== re: Question about yeast Gary Smith recites his very positive experience with a stirrer ... >I just made a recent IPA using > Wyeast's London 1968 dated a year ago. It's not terribly difficult IMO to resurrect ancient yeast cultures but I'd warn you that extreme sanitation procedures should be used or else plan on plating out a pure culture. It's very easy to step up an infection too. As for stirrers ... they are very effective and well worth the investment. For a starter in a flask you can cover the top w/ filter paper get a lot of oxygen inclusion - produces great starters. I've even placed a 5g carboy on a large plate stirrer when using very flocculent yeast (like Wy1968) and the results were excellent with fast and complete attenuation. Tho' closed the stirred ferment drives off excess CO2 (a yeast inhibitor) and improves the yeast/extract contact. > Married men live longer than single men, [...] It just seems longer Gary ! ======= re: Brewing in small batches (~2 gallons) Oisin Boydell asks ... > Are there any problems associated with brewing smaller quantites No. When I have time I often experiment w/ different methods, ingredients and yeasts in side-by-side comparison and unless I am confident that the results will taste great I use small batch sizes. As small as 2L. The difficulty is in having appropriate size fermenters. > I found a store that sells 2 gallon (10 litre) plastic kegs so there > would be no problem with equipment. You can also find 2.5gal/10L glass carboys and 2.5gal cornelius kegs and these are a joy to use. A few points on plastic ... except for some very new beverage containers plastics will allow a little oxygen ingress. This is OK during fermentation but you can't store finished beer in (most) plastics for very long - gets very stale. You must stay on top of your fermentation and get the beer bottled (I assume you bottle condition) ASAP if you use plastic for the late fermentation. =========== Re: Clove flavor in wheat beer Augie Altenbaumer asks > I've been working on brewing German wheat beers ... > I am getting more fruit flavor than clove flavor. FWIW Auggie the fresh hefe-weizens I had in Germany were all balanced on the ester/fruity/bannana side and tho' the clove flavor was clearly present it was behind the esters. I find some of the very clovey US weizens and some of the pseudo-belgians off-putting and almost medicinal. Still some styles cal for it. > Here is > what I think I gathered from past posts: Yeast type > and pitching conditions will determine this balance > more than anything. Yeast genetics determine their ability to produce esters and clove flavor. The fermentation conditions will impact esters greatly and the wort composition will impact clove flavor potential. Even among clovey weizen yeasts there is an order of magnitude difference in the amount of 4VG(clove flavor) produced from the same wort. > I believe my pitching conditions > might be causing more fruit than clove flavor. Pitching conditions will effect the ester levels, not so much the clove/4VG. > I have been using Wyeast 3068 for my wheat beers and Good yeast tho' it's a bit finicky in my experience. > I have been pitching at ~75F and > then cooling down to 68F.[...] > I believe that I read in > the archives that pitching cooler and then warming up > to the fermentation temp would encourage more > development of clove flavor. Not likely I think. Yeast produce more esters when warm and also in stressed conditions but yeast convert ferulic acid into 4 vinyl guiaicol (4VG clove flavor) as a means of extracting a bit of energy from the simple phenolic acid(ferulic). If you read over the 'rules' for a great fermentation (pitching level, temps, nutrition) these are the same conditions needed for minimal esters. The only deviation is that cooling a ferment below ideal levels will also reduce esters even more. If you want to reduce esters pitch big into cool wort and ferment cool. Do *NOT* pitch into warm 75F wort and then cool. This causes the yeast to create weaker cell membranes with the O2 available early on - and then they are stressed at the cooler temp - produces more esters and underattenuates. A secondary issue - most weizen yeast are VERY susceptible to autolysis and pitching warm then cooling can create bad autolysis conditions. The clove flavor story is complex too. Yeast have a phenolic-off-flavor(POF) gene which creates a phenolic decarboxylase enzyme. All S.c yeast have the gene but it's non-function in most brewing yeast and the conditions for genetic expression makes the amount of clovey flavor vary from yeast to yeast. Ferulic acid is a simple phenolic acid that appears in grain and when decarboxylated produces the clovey flavor. Cinnamic acid is another and decarboxylates to styrene which is horribly medicinal. The ferulic and cinnamic are attached to cell wall polysaccharides in grain and these come free to a variable extent during the mash. To maximize the 4VG you'd want grain/malt with more ferulic then mash for maximum ferulic extraction.. Wheat has far more than barley and German wheat beers use 50-100% wheat malt. To extract as much of the ferulic as possible, =Spencer correctly notes that a low temp rest (around 43C/ 109F as I recall) causes an enzymatic release of ferulic. Traditional German weizens undergo a mash-in ~35-37C and a decoction w/ 20-25 minute boil according to Kunze and that may be effective in extracting ferulic too. Fermentaton conditions probably impact ferulic conversion rate, but I'm not aware of any solid rules in that regard. Ferulic acid is converted fairly early in the fermentation process. The 4VG degrades over time and a too-clovey beer may taste a lot better in a month or two - tho' hefes are best very fresh IMO. Traditional German wheats beers are pitched at normal levels, fermented warm (as high as 25-30C!) and fast in open fermenters. Kunze suggests pitching at 12C(54F) and fermenting at 13-21C(55-70F) in modern practice. 6-7% speise is added and the result is bottle conditioned w/o lagering. Keep in mind that the German practice is intended to give dominant esters. Fermenting on the cooler side should reduce esters relative to 4VG. fwiw, -S Return to table of contents
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