---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Debugging news... (Pat Babcock)
  Jim Birmingham: what else was taken besides your walk-in beer cooler (Bill Velek)
  Re: Adding gelatin to the keg (Jeff Renner)
  Re: lagering (Jeff Renner)
  Gelatin ("Jim Bermingham")
  RE: I've been robbed (Steve Jones)
  Missing Walk in cooler ("Jim Bermingham")
  IR Thermometer usage ("Steve Laycock")
  Subject: Re: lagering (Derric)
  Protein Rest with Rye in Beer (Elmer Steingass)
  Re: Berliner Weisse, finished! ("Petr Otahal")
  Re: Adding gelatin (David Radwin)
  acid additions to reduce alkalinity (tmeier)
  SEC: UNCLASS Yeast Harvesting (Longish) ("Williams, Rowan")
  Thump, thump, thumpity, thump (Pat Babcock)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:47:50 -0400
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at brew.hbd.org>
Subject: Debugging news...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Heh, heh, heh. It's hard to mail the Digest to everyone when you only 
have two addresses in the distro file.  at #$&ing file permissions...

On the bright side, it means that no-one got the spam that slipped in
despite three Janitors watching the queue. On the not-so-bright side,
well...

The Chief Nut in the House



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Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:20:17 -0500
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Jim Birmingham: what else was taken besides your walk-in beer cooler

Jim wrote to complain that when he arrived home, he discovered that his 
newly built walk-in beer cooler had been taken.  Jim, you posted that 
just a few hours ago, and so now that you've hopefully calmed down 
enough to have a brew, let me suggest that you also check to see if they 
took your wife, too.  I know that we must have our priorities, but my 
wife gets really pissed when I forget about her due to my beer/brewing.  ;-)

Cheers.

Bill Velek






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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:52:58 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Adding gelatin to the keg

(Didn't get HBD in the mail, Pat)

Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> asked:

>Do any of you add gelatin while kegging?

I do when I've got a cloudy or hazy beer, like when I have a poor 
settling yeast.  It isn't necessary with lagers if you've done things 
right.  And many ale yeasts clear on their own.

I use grocery store brand gelatin - one packet per 8-10 gallons.  I 
add it to a cup or so of cold water in an oversized pyrex measuring 
cup, stir it to suspend it, then nuke it to close to boiling to 
hydrate it.  Then I start racking, add some beer to the gelatin, then 
gently add the beer to the receiving carboy or keg, and finish 
racking.  I figure the swirling from the incoming beer distributes 
it.  Don't add it to an empty carboy or keg as that will chill it and 
it will set like Jello and stay stuck on the bottom.

When I do it in a carboy, it's fun to watch it settle out from top to 
bottom over a matter of hours.  And it really works, pulling the 
yeast down.

BTW, I've never had any trouble with bottle conditioning after fining 
this way, so it seems to leave enough yeast for this.

>If so, what concerns or additional steps do I need to be aware of?

Don't use flavored gelatin.  ;-)

Don't do this too soon; wait until fermentation has well and truly 
stopped and any excess diacetyl has been cleaned up.  Some ale yeasts 
take a week or more after then end of active fermentation to do this.

Way back in the early days of HBD, I suggested that you hould not 
boil it because this would denature the proteins.  It was gently 
pointed out to me that gelatin *IS* denatured proteins - it's made by 
boiling things like hooves, bones, etc.  Duh!

Boiling does produce lumps that stay as lumps in the beer, though.  I 
suspect that this is due to localized dehydration.

One theoretical concern is mad cow disease as prions can survive the 
long boiling process.  I haven't heard that it is an actual danger.

And for vegetarian friends, I think there is vegetable gelatin.

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:29:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: lagering

"Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu> writes from Lagerland, 
where he says he is lost:

>I think I'm finally ready to brew my first lager (after more than a
>decade of brewing)!

Congratulations.  Lagers are a whole 'nother world of beer.  I love 
brewing and drinking them.  I'm brewing an Oktoberfest Monday for 
Oktober.

>  I have a boatload of hopefully simple questions for
>you lager heads:
>
>1)  I bottle my beer.  How does self carbonation work after the long
>lagering process?

It works fine, although some people lager after bottle conditioning. 
I prefer to lager first.  Less sediment in the bottle.

>Do I need to add extra yeast for bottling?

No.  I've had no problem, even with a three month lagered doppelbock.

>If so, an ale or lager yeast?

If you felt you ought to, it would definitely be a lager yeast as 
they are reputedly more stable.  That's what's added to some 
commercial German hefeweizen beers.

>After carbonation, do the bottles need to be stored
>at a refrigerated temperature to avoid off flavors?

They don't have to, but they will keep better.  Lagers are best 
fresh.  Think of them like milk.  Keep them at lagering temperature - 
32F/0C if you can. and let them warm up to 48F/9C or so before 
drinking them.

>2)  I don't have a PID temperature controller.  Can I still make good
>lagers with a fridge?  I can control the temperature relatively well
>from ~46 F to 55 F, but I won't be able to do a one degree step down as
>I've heard some people ferment lagers.

Should be no problem.  Before I had a controller, I used a timer with 
48 pins that turn it on and off with half hour increments.  I found 
that by setting the fridge to its coldest setting I could get just 
about any temperature by having the timer turn the fridge on a half 
hour every few hours.  Takes a bit of fiddling to get it right.

I wouldn't worry too much about the slow drop in temperature.  There 
is enough mass in a batch of beer that it slows the drop.

If you use a yeast that requires a diacetyl rest of 60-65F/15-17C, 
then you could just turn off the fridge or take the beer out for a 
day, then turn it back on and or return it, then drop the 
temperature.  Remove the timer and set the fridge to a warmer 
setting, then turn it down over a couple of days.

My fridge will actually freeze a carboy or keg of beer at its coldest 
setting.  You might find yours can do that too.

>3)  Is it best to pitch at room temp and ramp down to 50 F or can I grow
>my yeast starter at 50 F and then pitch when my wort has chilled to 50F?

You should grow your yeast at a warmer temperature just to get it 
done quickly.  Some people argue that yeast should be grown at the 
same conditions as it will be used, but that isn't true.  It doesn't 
have a memory.  Yeast labs grow it in incubators.  I use a stir plate 
and the warmth of the motor gets the temperature up to about 90F/32C. 
Gets things done faster, along with continuous aeration with filtered 
air and a low SG starter (1.025 or so).

I understand that Chris White of WhiteLabs suggests starting your 
actual beer fermentation at ~70F/19C and then dropping it when 
fermentation starts.  This will get things going faster but I don't 
like to do it for two reasons.  First, because it's not traditional, 
and I figure that without a convincing counter argument, there is 
reason to follow tradition.  Hundreds of years of practice based on 
empirical evidence counts for something.  Second, because it has been 
argued here that the early fermentation is when fruity esters can be 
produced at warmer temperatures.

I use an immersion chiller and since I have a well that runs 48F/9C 
in the winter and 52F/11C in the summer, I get the wort down to 
within a degree or two of the water before pitching and stick it in 
the fridge to finish chilling if it isn't there already.

I ferment at the traditional 48F/9C and use yeasts that don't need a 
diacetyl rest.  My favorite is Ayinger yeast, sold by WhiteLabs as 
WLP822 German Bock lager yeast.

>4)  I've also heard of a higher primary fermentation followed by a much
>cooler lagering temp.  What works best?

Commercial American lager breweries ferment at 55-57F/13-14C.  This 
finishes the fermentation more quickly.  But, again, it isn't 
traditional.  But German born, Doemens trained master brewer Fred 
Scheer (now at Bosco's in Nashville) told me when he was at 
Frankenmuth here in Michigan that he fermented at 55F, and he turned 
out great lagers.

Our local brewpub ferments and lagers at 55F because they lack the 
ability to chill to 32F/0C, and I think the lack of cold lagering 
shows.

Hope this helps.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:22:03 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Gelatin

 Doug Moyer ask if any of us use gelatin while kegging.  I don't use it in
the kegs but have on occasion used it in the fermenter to clear a cloudy 
beer.  To 1 packet of unflavored gelatin, add one beer to dissolve and add
to the fermenter.  Starts clearing the beer right away.  Rack into the kegs
and leave the sediment behind. 

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:36:01 -0400
From: Steve Jones <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: I've been robbed

Arrrggghhh! Now you've done it Dave. Jim thinks
I stole his walkin, and now he and some of his 
back-room good-ole boys are heading up to Johnson
City to reclaim it! I guess I'm going to have to 
go into hiding till the heat blows over! Damn, I 
thought I had pulled that one off without a hitch!

And rather than receiving the digest late last
night, I just received it at about 1:20pm today!

Steve Jones, 
NOT from Johnson City, TN
NOT at [421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR



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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:39:48 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Missing Walk in cooler

I noticed in the queue that Bill Velek was wanting to know what else was
missing besides my walk-in cooler.  Bill nothing was missing.  I wished I
had a walk-in cooler for my beer but don't.  Dave Burley, mistook a post by
Steve Jones about his new cooler as coming from me and answered the post
Sunday stating that I had a walk-in cooler.  Then Monday Steve corrected
Dave's assumption.  So, Dave gave me a cooler and Steve stole it back.  Easy
come easy go.  It was just another one of my tong in the cheek post.

Pat I received two post today.  The first one I received at Noon and the
second at 12:30PM.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:54:35 -0700
From: "Steve Laycock" <slaycock at discoverynet.com>
Subject: IR Thermometer usage

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:14:53 -0400
From: "National Midnight Star Brewery" <nmstarbrewery at charter.net>
Subject: IR Thermometers (No-Contact)

I have been researching IR thermometers for measuring the Mash Temperature
and the post wort chiller temperature (and as a neat toy!).  The concept is
that you point it what you want to measure and it gives you the digital
result without contaminating anything.  A fairly cheap model can be seen at
http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/alpha/IR201.html.  Anyone have any
experience using these IR thermometers to measure the mash temp (of course
you will need to mix well prior and it is only a surface measurement) or
liquid temps?  Any experience to share will help and if you know a better
model/price, even better.

Thanks in Advance!

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan  [99.8, 344.8] Apparent Rennerian
National Midnight Star Brewery
nmstarbrewery at charter.net


I have been using an IR thermometer to measure the temperature of hot
polyurethane resin (I do custom industrial polyurethane molding) for several
years now, and started using it for some brewing applications also.  The
unit I have was about $180 and is very durable.  I use it daily and have had
no problem with the quality.  I have a "Raytek" brand unit.
 I like the speed of usage, no need to allow the thermocouple to stabalize
for a temp readout.  Its very usable for my application & I am very happy
with its performance/ accuracy.  You are correct in the fact that mixing the
material to be measured  will increase your chances on a better temp
readout.  I DO NOT use this for the mash however, I found that the real
usable mash temps are better taken a few inches below the grain surface
using a thermo couple type device.  I tried it with the mash early on and
wasn't satisfied with the results.
I check wort temp, carboy temps, the air temp around the carboy, air temp of
refrig., water temp for sparge & mash water, and to boot the laser pointer
that is incorporated with my IR unit is a blast to get the cats running in
circles and climbing walls trying to catch the "red dot".
Its a great tool but you'll still need another conventional digital thermo
to round out your thermal monitoring needs.

Steve in KC
"Highwater Brew Haus"




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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derric <derric1961 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: lagering

 
> I think I'm finally ready to brew my first lager
(after more than a
> decade of brewing)!
 
You'll be sorry you waited so long! :)
 
 
> 1)  I bottle my beer.  How does self carbonation
work after the long
> lagering process?
 
Fine.
 
> Do I need to add extra yeast for bottling?
 
Not usually.  To me, carbonation does seem to take a
tad longer, perhaps
due to the supposedly lesser quantity of yeast. 
However, I'm only
talking about a difference of maybe a week.
 
 
> After carbonation, do the bottles need to be stored
> at a refrigerated temperature to avoid off flavors?
 
No.  That said, however, I did have a *perfect* O'fest
that changed
taste slightly during room temp carbonation and
storage.  It went from a
perfect Spaten O'fest to a sorta Beck's O'fest.  :) 
But it was a slight
taste change, certainly NOT an "off flavor."  (It lost
some "maltiness"
somehow, between bottling and drinking, which I blamed
on room temp).
 
 
> 2)  I don't have a PID temperature controller.  Can
I still make good
> lagers with a fridge?  I can control the temperature
relatively well
> from ~46 F to 55 F, but I won't be able to do a one
degree step down as
> I've heard some people ferment lagers.
 
I don't think the one degree step down is necessary
for a good lager.
 
 
> 3)  Is it best to pitch at room temp and ramp down
to 50 F or can I grow
> my yeast starter at 50 F and then pitch when my wort
has chilled to 50F?
 
This is debatable.  Many will grow it at room temp,
then chill and pitch
at 50F.  Generally most folks say you should pitch
into 50F wort and not
at a warmer wort.  I chill the wort to about 50F and
pitch cool yeast.
 
 
> 4)  I've also heard of a higher primary fermentation
followed by a much
> cooler lagering temp.  What works best?
 
I've had excellent results with a schedule like:
        Primary: 2 weeks  at  50F  (diacetyl rest @60F
the last two days)
        Secondary: 2 weeks  at  50F
        Lager: 4 weeks  at  33F (I step the temp down
about 5F/day).
Some will avoid the secondary and have a little longer
primary and
step straight down into lagering.  Others lager longer
than 4 weeks.
Supposedly the longer you lager the better.  4 weeks
is about all I can
stand and it makes an excellent beer, crystal clear!
 
One other point I had trouble with once...  I siphoned
cold (33F) lager
into a bottling bucket on top of just boiled priming
sugar solution...
and it didn't mix as it usually does.  This technique
has always worked
fine for me for ales.  When I tasted the final drops
from the bottling
bucket, they were SICKLY sweet - almost pure sugar
water.  I ended up
with some gushers and some not carbonated at all and
had to doctor and
re-cap the batch.  I blamed the non-mixing incident on
the drastically
different temperatures of the two liquids -
thermocline?  So I recommend
gentle stirring of the priming solution for cold
lagers.
 
Derric



		


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:32:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Elmer Steingass <w8av at yahoo.com>
Subject: Protein Rest with Rye in Beer

Esteemed HBD Readers:
 
  We were having a discussion at our last brew club
meeting and the question came up about the need to do
a protein rest when using rye in beer.  I realize that
a protein rest will help with clearing, but is this
rest really necessary?
 
  Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Thanks in advance
 
Goose
w8av at aol.com
 
Mmmmm Beer.  Woo Hoo!..........Homer Simpson


		


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:41:43 +1000 (EST)
From: "Petr Otahal" <petr.otahal at aardvark.net.au>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse, finished!

Chad Hogan from Calgary write:
> Briefly: 50/50 pale/wheat grain bill, just shy of 2kg each. 25 minute
> protein rest, decoction to 155F with an ounce hallertauer simmered for
> 15 minutes in the decoction, 60 minutes saccharification, 165F
> mashout, 23 litres collected and left to cool. ~1.032 OG. No boil,

Hi Chad,

could you please write a your procedure out in a little more detail,
specifically times and temperatures for the mash rests, and fermentation
temps.

This sounds like a beer I would like to try when summer comes around.

Thanks
Petr Otahal
Hobart Tas. Aust.




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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:09:28 -0700
From: David Radwin <dradwin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Adding gelatin

 Doug Moyer wrote:

> Do any of you add gelatin while kegging? If so, what
> concerns or additional steps do I need to be aware of?

You might want to warn your vegetarian beer-drinking friends.

David in Berkeley CA


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:21:36 +0100
From: tmeier at real-ale.net
Subject: acid additions to reduce alkalinity


While looking for a way to calculate how much acid to add
to strike/sparge water, I got confused by several things
in Greg Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer".. (which, by the
way is a great book for anyone who is a scientist brewer)

Noonan says to calculate how much acid you need to reduce
the alkalinity by 185 ppm (mg/L) as CaCO3, you start by
multiplying the alkalinity as CaCO3 times the liters of
liquor needed, or

185 mg/L x 28.4 L = 5250 mg alkalinity as CaCO3

Now here's the part I don't get. Using 85% lactic acid
which bears 1020 milligrams of dry lactic acid per ml,
Noonan calculates:

5250 mg alk as CaCO3 / 1,020 mg dry acid/ml wet acid =
5.2 ml of wet acid required

So apparently one mg of any type acid cancels out one mg
of alkalinity? Doesn't make any sense to me, can anyone
explain that?

I was directed to this great article by AJ DeLange which
covers adding acid to water:
http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/AcidifWater..
AJD0497.html

I plugged all the formulas into a spreadsheet, here:
http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/acid.xls

Using AJ's method on my spreadsheet I could reproduce AJ's
example for citric acid but could not reproduce Noonan's
example. Mine comes out to 10.2 ml of 85% w/w
lactic acid (1159 mg/L, 1020 mg dry acid/L) required to
neutralize 185 ppm as CaCO3 (3.7 mEq/L), so its about 50%
off.

I checked the lactic acid addition against Hubert's page,
http://www.netbeer.org/english/tips.htm
and it agreed closely (I don't have the SG for 80% lactic,
which he uses, so chalked up the 5% error to that)

Does anyone know of a program, spreadsheet, or web based
calculator package out there I could use to double check
my work for acids other than lactic? Or can any sharper
people out there check for errors?

And lastly, can anyone who knows say for sure that
Noonan's example is in error?

Thanks for any help!

Tom Meier
Nashville, TN




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:45:37 +1000
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS Yeast Harvesting (Longish)

Hi Folks,
Time to stop lurking and ask a question on a subject that has probably 
been done a thousand times, so I will apologise in advance!  In my defence 
I did scour the HBD archive and whilst I did discover quite a lot, I didn't 
find an exact answer - hence this post...

I had a smack pack of Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast and figured that due 
to economics, I had better harvest this smack pack rather than tip the
contents 
into the fermenter.  The problem is that I'm not sure if it worked!  If you
don't 
mind, I will detail my method and humbly seek any sage advice that you pro 
yeast harvesters can provide me before I attack the next smack pack (a
Wyeast 
2124 Bohemian Lager)...

I took the 1056 smack pack out of the fridge a few nights before and let it
come to 
room temp (19C thanks to the central heating).  I smacked and vigorously
shook 
the pack and let it incubate on the kitchen bench for a couple of days -
there was 
very little swelling (it was stamped DEC 03) and after 2 and a bit days of 
incubation the pack had swollen but only by an inch or two...I figured that
it 
was probably fairly dormant and or tired (insert technically correct term
here!) 
and the cells needed a good feed and breathe in some fresh wort.

I boiled and chilled a 3 Litre 1.040 unhopped wort using the rest of my dry
malt 
extract and some dextrose (because I ran out of DME before I got to the
desired 
gravity) - I reckoned on using 330g of dry malt extract for the 3 Litre
starter and 
used 280g of DME and 50g of Dextrose - is that a problem?

I cooled the wort to 23C and pitched the smack pack, stirred through and 
decanted the concoction into three 2L  PET bottles to make three 1 litre
starters, 
figuring the yeast would multiply in the wort and give me plenty of starter
to 
decant into stubbies. I capped the bottles, shook the hell out of them and
then 
fitted Rubber bungs and airlocks on top of the bottles, thus completing that
stage.

I put the three bottles on a heating pad set to 24C and gave the bottles a
rouse 
whenever I walked past the cellar for the first 24-36 hours - but not too
vigorous 
to risk a suckback on the airlock!  There was very little activity - cloudy
wort but 
little or no action and certainly no krausen.  I had assumed that the yeast
would 
have been incubated in the smack pack and thus reduce the potential lag
time?  

24 hours after bottling, I noticed some airlock action and small patches of
bubbles 
on the surface.  48 hours after bottling, same small patches - airlock
action but it 
was slow, not unlike a wort in the final day or two of primary fermentation.
No 
krausen but a steady airlock burp every 5 or 6 seconds.  Temp was a steady
24C 
and the airlocks were sealing well.  The three mini worts were still cloudy
but 
they were definitely clearer than at the start of the fermentation.

Last night (approx 3 days after bottling) I decided to bottle the starters.
I noticed a 
pale tan sediment in the bottom nipples of the PET bottles (if you catch my
drift) 
and figured that the sediment was a good sign that some yeast multiplication
had 
occurred (note: I didn't strain the wort after boiling but there were no
hops so I 
figured that a bit of hot break material wouldn't be an issue in such a
small wort?).  
I shook the PET bottles to lift the sediment and stir things up - and
funnelled the 
yeast solution into small stubbies (9 in total).  Crown seals finished the
job and 
they are went into the fridge last night.  All is quiet as I checked this
morning 
before departing for work - no overnight bottle bombs whilst cooling!

Sorry about the long saga, but did I waste my time?  I didn't get the frothy
krausen 
as I did when I harvested 1028 slurry from a primary fermenter that had a
robust 
porter in it.  Did I over dilute the smack pack? Should I have made a 1L
starter 
and done the step up thingy?

After 10 years of brewing I have good hygiene, cleaning, sanitation skills -
Sod 
Met, Iodophor, Sod Percarbonate and bloody hot water are all on hand and I
have 
never had an infection in the brewery so far...

Any thoughts/comments/advice?

Thanks for your patience in reading this...

Cheers,
Rowan Williams
Canberra Australia
[9588.6, 261.5] AR miles



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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:54:26 -0400
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at brew.hbd.org>
Subject: Thump, thump, thumpity, thump

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Ah! The sound of HBD flowing endlessly out the spigot.

Today's Adventures with Perl and Kornshell seem to have been a stunning
success! In less than 15 minutes, we will know whether the same will
work in the mainstream mailing of our beloved brewspaper.

Permisson issues have been resolved. Code trial went quite well.
Hopefully, nothing overlooked. In any case, the new LOGGING features I
added will help me find and fix any enemy combatants in the woodpile,
should they pop up. And, as with any such foray into the guts of the
Digest, some other nagging problems with old code from other hands have
been isolated and eradicated.

And, two more features come out of this: the Probe and the ability to
mail past Digests to the entire list. Life is good.

Hopefully, life will still be good tomorrow, and the Troll will be able
to quietly climb back under his bridge and resy until the NEXT time...

See ya!

The Troll Beneath The HBD Bridge 


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