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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  My Berliner Weisse method (Chad Hogan)
  Thank You Pat ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Morning Stout Tastes Better (hazan)
  Noonan's Water Calculations ("A.J deLange")
  acid additions to reduce alkalinity ("Fred Scheer")
  protein rest with Rye in Beer ("Fred Scheer")
  Priming in soda kegs? (Greg Tatarian)
  Re:Protein Rest with Rye in Beer (Denny Conn)
  I Hate Bottling ("Dave Larsen")
  AHA Mead Day ("Gary Glass")
  Lagers by Shawn (Leo Vitt)


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:10 -0600
From: Chad Hogan <chad.hogan at gmail.com>
Subject: My Berliner Weisse method

I'll describe it as it actually happened, rather than as I planned it.

I used somewhat less than two kg each of pale and wheat malt. I
reserved a small amount of each, so I estimate perhaps 1.8 kg each
actually made it into the mash. I heated 10 litres of water to 57C for
dough-in, leading to a temperature of approximately 54C in the mash. I
stayed at this temperature for ~15 minutes for a protein rest.

After this, I pulled out approximately 4 litres of stiff mash into a
pot for decoction. I heated this to boiling, added an ounce of
Hallertauer hops, and simmered it for approximately fifteen minutes,
stirring constantly to avoid scorching.

I returned this to the mash. The temperature raised to approximately
63C, too low for my saccharification rest. So, I performed another
small decoction, this time only long enough to heat the mash to
boiling. I added this back to the mash, and the temperature was raised
to 68C. Next time, I will decoct a larger amount to accomplish this in
a single step. I am new to decoction mashing so this was a learning
experience for me.

Once 68C was reached, I left this for a saccharification rest for 60
minutes. In the meantime, I heated sparge water.

After 60 minutes, I added four litres of water at 80C to raise the
temperature for mashout. Then I sparged with water at approximately
75C. I collected the first four litres of first runnings and poured it
back in for a vorlauf. After this, it ran relatively clear. In total,
I collected 23 litres of wort from the mash.

I did not boil at all, the wort went straight into a carboy. OG:
~1.032-1.034. I had no trouble with a stuck mash at all, most likely due to
the higher temperature mashout. I added a small handful of the
reserved grain, covered the opening with foil, and placed the carboy
in my kitchen to cool. I added grain to the carboy a couple of times
each day. Within 24 hours a krausen had formed and there was obvious
churning. I let it continue like this for approximately four and a
half days. The temperature in the room was approximately 20C. At this
point, gravity dropped to approximately 1.024-1.026. I believe that if the
wort had been aerated it might have fermented out completely. This
might be something I'll try next time. With this batch, I put the hot
wort right into the carboy so undoubtedly dissolved oxygen was very
low. Next time I will consider chilling the wort, aerating, and
pitching yeast immediately. We'll see.

Anyhow... when it tasted tart enough for me, I took the entire volume
and heated it to boiling and simmered lightly for around ten
minutes. It was not a hard boil, but it did reach boiling temperature.
I did not want the souring to continue, so I used this to kill off the
bacteria and wild yeast and allow my yeast starter to take hold and
finish the job. Then I chilled, aerated, and pitched a yeast starter
made from Cooper's. It stayed in primary for approximately a week, and
secondary for another week at ~18C. It was easily finished within this
time, as it was such a small beer. I primed fairly heavily and
bottled. Final gravity was about 1.006.

Chad Hogan
Calgary, Alberta


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:36:26 -0800
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <hogbrew at mtaonline.net>
Subject: Thank You Pat

Your latest forays into the code have produced gold.  Today I received
Tuesday's and Wednesday's  HBD's.  Life is good, except for the fact that I
am unemployed after Friday.

Thank you for your hard work.  When I get another job, I'll send another
donation.

John Vaughn




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:35:35 -0000
From: <hazan at ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Morning Stout Tastes Better

My thanks to the trolls under the bridge for their undying loyalty in making 
my mornings so much richer.  Yes, the HBD is back and receiving it makes my 
morning stout taste so much better.


My hope is that the three billy goats never trod on your endevors again.

Al Hazan  NE Penn.


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:54:11 +0100
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Noonan's Water Calculations

Without going through Noonan's calculations in detail I was able to spot 
a couple of problems with his approach. First off acids aren't usually 
spoken of in terms of their normality unless you are operating at pH 
well above the acid's pH - a situation that usually pertains only with 
strong mineral acids. Even there you need to be a bit careful because 
sulfuric acid's 2nd pK is 1.9 and the acid can be labeled with normality 
only if the resulting solution into which it is being put will have a pK 
more than 3.9 (a general rule of thumb is 2 pH units). Now that I think 
of it the only application in which I have ever seen sulfuric acid 
labeled with a normality is in titration cartridges used for measuring 
alkalinity where the end point is around 4.3 (more than 2 above 1.9). 
For lactic acid the pK is around 3 and mash pH is a bit over 5 so the 
rule of thumb is satisfied, the  acid will be mostly dissociated and 
this error is a small one - one that can be ignored.

Another eye-catcher in Noonan's book is the statement that at pH 7,  81% 
of the alkalinity is bicarbonate. That's not true. At pH 7  81% of the 
carbo moles  (moles of carbonic + moles of bicarbonate + moles of 
carbonate) are bicarbonate, approximataely 29% are carbonic and very, 
very few are carbonate. But carbonic does not show up in an alkalinity 
measurement - only  bicarbonate (and carbonate if there is any). Thus 
all the alkalinity is due to bicarbonate at pH 7 and bicarbonate and 
alkalinity are approximately equivalent. Equivalent means that the 
number of milliequivalents of bicarbonate, obtained by dividing the ppm 
as CaCO3 by 50, is approximately equal to the alkalinity, expressed in 
millieqivalents per liter, and as ppm as CaCO3 is the equivalence 
multiplied by 50 the bicarbonate as CaCO3 and alkalinity as CaCO3 are 
also approximately the same. This is only true at pH low enough that 
carbonate is unappreciable (which is the case for most brewing 
applications).  Note that alkalinity is the number of milliequivalents 
of acid required to shift the pH down to 4.3 where almost but not quite 
all the bicarbonate is converted to carbonic.

Next thing is that the amount of bicarbonate to be removed depends upon 
the mash pH desired. At pH 5 all but 5% of the total carbo has been 
converted to carbonic and at pH 5.4 all but 10% at pH 5.6 all but 15%. 
Thus consideration of the desired strike pH is necessary in calculating 
the amount of acid needed.

The other thing I noted (and on 2nd reading I see that Tom referred to 
it) is that Noonan appears to assume that 88% lactic acid weighs 1 gram 
per ml. It is acually more like 1.2 gram/mL. So ignoring that is the 
source of an error of 20% magnitude.

Finally, and this is another small error, in shifting pH by adding acid 
to a bicarbonate system one has to add some extra acid beyond that 
required to neutralize the bicarbonate. Water at pH 4 has a hydrogen ion 
concentration 1000 times higher than the concentration at pH 7 (but it's 
still only 0.1 millimole per liter).

The algorithm set forth at the web site Tom mentioned considers all the 
nettlesome details I've referred to above some of which Noonan ignores. 
Thus I'm not terribly surprised that the differences are 50%. But in the 
real world of beermaking 50% error is not really that bad. One should 
assume that level of error from any calculation and add the acid very 
slowly in increments of say 10% of the calculated volume, stir, wait, 
check pH and then add more. Experience should be your ultimate guide. 
The calculations are only to get you into the ball park.

BTW I agree that Noonan's book is top drawer. He's not a water chemist 
(nor, for that matter am I) but his books have taught me much of what I 
know.

Cheers, A.J.



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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:19:42 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: acid additions to reduce alkalinity

The subject of pH and alkalinity is large to discuss
here in depth. First I recommend finding out what your alkalinity
in your area is. For example, at our location
(Boscos, Hillsboro Village, Nashville, TN) we have
a alkalinity of 53 mg/L (as CaCO3) and a pH of 6.55  at  22*C.
You also should look at your total hardness; in our case it is 96 ppm/L.
As you see, we are in no need to ad any form of acid, which in
my experience makes the finished beer very dry in aftertaste.
For homebrewers as yourself, you can adjust water quite easily.

If your water has a less than ~ 60 ppm in hardness and the pH
is around 7, you are lucky and don't need acid in the water.

When your brew-water has a high hardness and a higher ph (as discussed),
boiling your water and adding Gypsum will help correcting the water.

If your water has a pH of 7.5 and hardness of more than 300 ppm,
some homebrewers correct the water with adding FOOD grade acids.
In this case you neutralize carbonates, but not eliminating too much 
calcium.
Lot's of homebrewers correcting the situation by calculating a certain
amount of distilled water to their "home" water.

Also, before adding any acid to your brew-water, please make sure
that you look up the water composition of the "beer style" origins
you attempt to brew.

The NEW BREWER (Association of Brewers) had lots of good articles
on brew-water. Also, if you go through past discussion on water,
AJ Lange has posted extensively here on the subject.
I have contacted in the past AJ myself several times and discussed
water with him, I don't think he minds to discuss with you the
scientific side more in details.

Also, the Music City Homebrew Club in Nashville, TN 
(www.musiccitybrewers.com)
is a good source of help.


Fred M. Scheer
Nashville, TN 


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:45:33 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: protein rest with Rye in Beer

Elmer:
We at Boscos just finished brewing our award winning (GABF)
"Rays Honey Rye; which was originally formulated by
Chuck Skypeck (Owner/Headbrewer for Boscos) and no other
than Ray Daniels. 
Rye is strongly flavored, and therefore a lower amount
should be used in your batch. Most Craft Brewers that I know use
10 - 20% rye in their formulations. Most German Brewers I know
who brew "Roggenbier" (Rye Beer) stay in the <20% range.
Like wheat, rye comes in hulled form, rye also has a high
water retention capacity and will create a sticky mash.
Rye is high in B-glutan, which are starches made up of
long strands of glucose molecules, which increase wort viscosity.
As you see, it is more important to give your mash a longer
beta glucan rest.
And, in case you want a more trouble free homebrew,
you still can use Rye Flakes.
Please let me give you a method for homebrew with Rye:

For a 5 gal recipe, mash in your rye with 14 qt of water
to get a mash temperature of 154 - 156*F. Hold for at
least 75 minutes at that temperature, stirring gently after
30 minutes for ~ 3 minutes. 
Sparge with a sparge temperature of 177*F 
(you see, a bit higher than normal), and PLEASE,
don't ad any acid in your mash or sparge water.

I hope this helps,

Fred M. Scheer
Nashville, TN


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:08:39 -0700
From: Greg Tatarian <gregtat at pacbell.net>
Subject: Priming in soda kegs?

Hello all,
I'm back to homebrewing after 9 years off. I have what may be a stupid 
question, but is it feasible to prime one's beer for carbonation in a 
soda keg? It seems the vessel is certainly made for the pressure, so why 
can't one just prime as normal for bottling, but rack into the keg? 
Laugh if you must, but please don't be shy to respond; I've got a 
fantastic-smelling all-grain Trappist ready for secondary fermentation 
in a couple of days, and I've got more kegs than bottles!
Cheers,
Greg Tatarian




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:59:45 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re:Protein Rest with Rye in Beer

As you may have heard, I make a LOT of rye beers.  A protein rest is 
completely unnecessary, IMO.  I've never used one and had no problems due 
to not using one.  I do a single infusion mash about 153F for my rye 
beers.  Rogue is now brewing a commercial version of my recipe (they call 
it Gone Awry) with the same single infusion mash.  Save yourself some 
trouble and go with the single infusion.

         -------------->Denny

At 11:30 PM 7/28/04 -0400, Elmer Steingass wrote:

>Esteemed HBD Readers:
>
>   We were having a discussion at our last brew club
>meeting and the question came up about the need to do
>a protein rest when using rye in beer.  I realize that
>a protein rest will help with clearing, but is this
>rest really necessary?
>
>   Inquiring minds want to know.
>
>Thanks in advance
>




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:56:15 +0000
From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
Subject: I Hate Bottling

I absolutely love brewing, and almost everything about it.  I love 
formulating recipes, selecting ingredients, mashing, sparging, boiling, 
fermenting, kegging, and imbibing.  However, if there is one thing I've 
always hated, it is bottling.

I used to prime the beer in the bottle, using a bottling bucket, priming 
sugar and a spigot.  I hated it.  It was such a chore and would always leave 
a layer of sediment in the bottle.

Now I bottle straight from the keg using a counter-pressure bottle filler, 
just like the big boys, and I still hate it.  Even though my bottles are 
crystal clear, it always spews beer all over my kitchen and equipment.  I 
end up with beer all over me, my hair, and my eyeglasses.  It is a simply a 
task I detest.

Bottling usually entails a lot of screaming, cursing, and fuming.  In fact, 
I think that after a bottling session, it is usually the closest I ever get 
to getting divorced.

I just thought I'd say that.  Does anybody else hate anything about their 
brewing process?

Dave
Tucson, AZ



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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:05:30 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <Gary at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Mead Day

Don't forget, the American Homebrewers Association's 3rd Annual Mead Day,
held Saturday August 7 (always on the first Saturday in August) is fast
approaching.  

Check out www.beertown.org/events/meadday/index.html for details, then grab
some honey, grab some yeast, grab some friends, grab a loved one, and get
ready to get sticky!

This year's official Mead Day recipe comes to us from three-time Meadmaker of
the Year, Byron Burch. This recipe took best-of-show for mead at the 2001 AHA
National Homebrew Competition.  Here are the specifics:

"Epiphanaic Exspearmint" Mead with Fresh Spearmint

Ingredients for 5 U.S. gal (19 L)

18 lb clover honey
4 gal. water (or enough to make 5 gal of mead)
4 Tbs tartaric acid
1 Tbs malic acid
8 oz bruised spearmint leaves
2 oz The Beverage PeopleTM yeast nutrient for mead (or 2 tsp each of yeast
energizer and yeast nutrient)
4 tsp acid blend
10 g dry Prise de Mousse wine yeast
6 g Sparkalloid
5 tsp stock Sodium Metabisulfite solution (after fermentation)

O.G.: 26o Brix (Approx. 1.110 SG)
Total Acid 6-6.5%

Instructions

Heat water until warm, turn off stove and stir in the honey until it is
dissolved. Boil five minutes, skimming, and add nutrient and acid. Cool to
room temperature and transfer to a sanitized fermenter. Sprinkle yeast on the
surface. Stir in after 12 hours. Ferment two to three weeks. Place spearmint
leaves in a mesh bag in another fermenter and rack mead onto the leaves. Age
one week, then fine with Sparkalloid (boil in 1-2 cups of water for 15
minutes, then stir into mead) and add Sodium Metabisulfite. Age four more
weeks, rack off the lees, then bottle.

Feel free to use this recipe or any other you care to come up with.  

Happy fermenting!

Gary Glass, Project Coordinator
Association of Brewers
888-U-CAN-BREW
(303) 447-0816 x 121
gary at aob.org 
www.beertown.org 

P.S. If you're into mead, check out the International Mead Festival,
11/5/2004 - 11/6/2004, in Boulder, CO: www.meadfest.com

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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lagers by Shawn

Shawn asked some lager questions.  I have made lagers using ordinary
refrigurators with an external temp controller.  Some of my practices
may have their slack side.  This is a hobby after all.

>1)  I bottle my beer.  How does self carbonation work after the long
>lagering process?  Do I need to add extra yeast for bottling?  If so, 
>an ale or lager yeast?  After carbonation, do the bottles need to be 
>stored at a refrigerated temperature to avoid off flavors?  

I too bottle condition lagers.  Sometimes, the yeast is not viable
after the long lagering periods.  My solution is to add some dry
brewing yeast when priming the beer.  Lager or ale will do.  My theory
is the tiny bit of fermenting that it takes to carbonate is not
changing the flavor significantly.  I go through the dry yeast
rehydration practices.  Dry yeast instead of liquid because it is easy
to store, and put to use when needed.  It's inexpensive too!

Liquid lager is worth the trouble and cost as primary fermenation
yeast.

>2)  I don't have a PID temperature controller.  Can I still make good
>lagers with a fridge?  I can control the temperature relatively well
>from ~46 F to 55 F, but I won't be able to do a one degree step down
as
>I've heard some people ferment lagers.  

I use a controller that is not PID.  In the days before you could buy
an off the shelf external controller, I made one from a controller that
is intended to be a temp controller for a walk in cooler.  I need two
parts - the controller and an extension cord that I could cut up and
use the parts.  

When you say you can control the temp between 46F and 55F - do you mean
you can keep it stable?  I would not like to have it changing withing
that temp range.  But a stable (+/- 2F) temp somewhere in that range
will work fine for primary fermentation.  

>3)  Is it best to pitch at room temp and ramp down to 50 F or can I 
>grow my yeast starter at 50 F and then pitch when my wort has chilled 
>to 50F?

I do starters at room temp.  Is that best?  That could be debated.  The
purpose of a starter is to grow yeast not make beer.  Its the sediment
I'm after, especially with the larger starters I use for lagers - 3
quarts in a one gallon jug.  I want to throw out most of the liquid
when pitching into the primary fermenter.

>4)  I've also heard of a higher primary fermentation followed by a
much
>cooler lagering temp.  What works best? 

I use about 50F primary, and as close to freezing as my frig will go
for secondary.  That's about 36F.  The frig's internal termostat takes
over once the external controller is set low enough.

My primary fermentations can take as long as 3 weeks.  About 2 months
for seconary.  

2 degree steps per day - I don't worry about it.  Several times, I have
had new primary fermenting lagers, one moved to secondary and one half
way through secondary.  That makes it hard to take the one that is
moving through daily temp changes.  I just move it into the seconary
frig, but after the diacytal rest.

What's a Diacytal rest?  Did I spell that right?  lol!
Warm up the beer at the end of primary fermentation to room temp in the
primary fermenter.  The yeast should absorb any diacytal that is
created during fermentaton.  I let is sit there 2 days.  Then rack and
move into secondary.  Room temp in this example is not 80F!   I use
room temp when it is in the 60s or low 70s.

  


=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE


		


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