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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Subject: RE: Beer in Hershey area (Donald Hellen)
  NHC 2004 Slideshow Online (mjkid)
  re: cp filling minikegs (tmeier)
  Beer Pubs in Vienna ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  RE: Substituting Light for Extra Light DME ("Rogers, Mike")
  Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary? (gornicwm)
  NYC Beer (David Perez)
  Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary for An APA/IPA? ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  beer in Toronto NOT (Robin Griller)
  Re:  pLambic Questions (MOREY Dan)
  Re: Counterpressure fill Minikegs? ("Mike Sharp")
  Mash out ("3rbecks")
  Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary for An APA/IPA? (Denny Conn)
  plambic inoculation (Raj B Apte)
  MFL? FFL? (Jeremy Hansen)
  Counterpressure Filling Minikegs ("Dan Listermann")


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Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:19:13 -0400
From: Donald Hellen <donhellen at horizonview.net>
Subject: Subject: RE: Beer in Hershey area

Scott D. Braker-Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com> wrote:
I have to say that there is no place greater anywhere on
earth than Shangy's . . . You will
never again be at a distributor that has this selection of
beer. Take a suitcase of cash and leave the car half
empty... You will need the space for the beer you buy. 

Maybe in the Hershey area. In the Cincinnati area, Jungle
Jim's grocery store has a selection of over 3,500 beers. You
can buy many of them in single-bottle quantities. 

Does Shangy's top that?

If so, I'll have to find an excuse to drive through Hershey
on my way to New York State sometime.

Don

Early to bed and early to rise make a man 
healthy -- if he exercises, 
wealthy -- if he strikes oil, and 
wise -- if he studies hard. 
 
- -- Anonymous
 




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Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:47:32 -0400
From: mjkid at rochester.rr.com
Subject: NHC 2004 Slideshow Online

Greetings,

	I'm in the process of putting a slideshow from the Las 
Vegas NHC online. Check it out at http://beerguy.smugmug.com/

More to come, I'm still sorting, cropping, etc.

Comments appreciated!

Cheers,

Mike Kidulich
Rochester, NY



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Date: Wed,  4 Aug 2004 04:43:11 +0100
From: tmeier at real-ale.net
Subject: re: cp filling minikegs


Jonathan Nail queried:
>Has anyone attempted to counterpressure fill
>a minikeg?

Absolutely.  I use a drilled stopper (#4 or 5?) over 
the outer/short tube of my Phil's Philler. This would
work the same for any similiarly built filler.

It foams a bit at first due to the short drop to the
bottom but you can either tilt the keg or attach a 
piece of hose to reach bottom and prevent that if its
a highly carbonated beer.  I never bother.

Great for traveling even if you already have a full
keg setup.

Tom Meier
Nashville, TN




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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:18:21 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: Beer Pubs in Vienna

>That said, here's my question:
>   What are some 'must-see' places in Vienna?
>(Beer-related or otherwise)  I'll be there from
>September 22nd thru the 24th.

Regards Vienna, been there quite a few times myself. The following link 
contains a brief overview, directions,  and phone numbers:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/keith-cgi-bin/austria/wien/pubpage

My recommendations are the following:

Fischerbraeu: http://www.fischerbraeu.at/
This place rocks, great food, they always have two beers on tap (and maybe a 
third seasonal). One beer is always their "Helles", and then at least one 
seasonal. Currently I believe they also have a Weizen. Sometimes they have a 
third seasonal. They also have some commercial beers on tap and in bottles. 
It gets really crowded in the evenings so call for reservations.  They have 
great snacks (various toasts: I recommend the Bieraufstrich) as well as real 
meals. Try the steak if you are hungry.

Salm Braeu: (no web site)
Really decent beer and food next to an old Schloss. Last time I was there 
they had a Pils, Maerzen, and Weizen on tap. All of them were good.

Schweizerhaus: located in the Prater amusement part. They don't brew any of 
there own beer but they have real Budvar and your mug never gets empty 
because the waiters are walking around with trays full of mugs and ready to 
replace your dry one. Nice garden to sit in during the afternoon.

Krah Krah: They don't brew but have a great selection of bottled and tap 
beer. I seem to remember close to a 100 different beers (of which about 10 
to 15 were on tap). It is located in one of Vienna's pub and nightlife 
areas. It gets crowded and loud. More of a party place with great beer if 
that is what you are looking for.

The Fischerbraeu is a must in my opinion.

Prost!
Marty



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:40:13 -0400 
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: RE: Substituting Light for Extra Light DME

Steve Smith asked about the difference between light and extra light DME for
use in future ales (Belgian / Barley Wines).

There should be very little difference.  According to ProMash, the potential
starting gravity is the same at 1.037 and the color difference is very
minimal at SRM 3 for xlight and 5 for light.

Mike Rogers
Cass River Homebrewers
Frankenmuth, Mi.
www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers <www.hbd.org/cassriverhomebrewers> 



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:06:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: gornicwm at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary?

In a word, "No".

Do I do one?  Sort of...I find that raising the temp of my mash before I sparge
makes lautering easier and improves my conversion efficiency.  

I do not purposely raise my temps to stop enzymatic action in 
any way, though this could be happening too.

Bill


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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:07:04 -0400
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: NYC Beer

Dean are you still around or already in the city? Either way, I have 
been neglect in sending this. I just got back from a fairly intense (but 
definitely not comprehensive) beer exploration of the city.

My favorite and most highly recommend is Blind Tiger, 518 Hudson & 
W.10th St. They have an incredible selection of excellent taps and the 
best service in the city. Ask for Chris who is very knowledgeable and 
respects customers who know their beer. Veronica and Osbaldo are very 
good tenders as well. Two weeks ago they had 90 Minute on Randle (but I 
blew that keg) and a bunch of high gravity Avery taps. Try the Avery 
Salvation if still available.

I also love The Ginger Man at 11 E. 36th St (between 5th and Madison) 
Especially when not crowded. Over 60 taps and the best looking and most 
spacious place you will find in NY.

d.b.a., 41 1st Ave between 2nd and 3rd St.s, is good and very popular 
with beer geeks in the city but I found it a bit too crowded. But good 
selection and quickish service.

Someone suggested Heartland Brew Pub (locations spreading like a virus 
around the city). I would avoid at all costs and it will cost. They 
charge $8 for nearly flavorless beer and are often packed by people who 
like nearly flavorless beer.

There are a bunch of great places in Brooklyn, Spuyten Duvil, Mugs, 
Sparky's, The Gate, and Waterfront Ale House (also in Manhattan). I can 
give more details if desired.

May your cup runith over in the City!!

Dave Perez
Gainesville, FL
Home of the 2nd Annual Hogtown Brew-Off. More info coming to an hbd 
posting soon!!!



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 06:30:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary for An APA/IPA?

Charles asks about mashouts and quotes Palmer: 

"Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed
(sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. ... For
most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the
mashout is not needed."

ahhhh 1.5-2 quarts per pound is a rather thin mash in my mind. I personally go
with 1.1 quarts per pound. I also always do a mash out and would recommend
doing one. The final product is always more clear and all around better when I
perform a mashout. 

John goes on to state: 

"For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a
mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the
grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent
this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold
honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water
according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of
homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no
consequences."

A thicker mash will yield better extraction no? It always has for me. That is
why I stick with a 1.1 ratio. Often I will mashout... Add my sparge water to
the top of the grainbed; let the mash sit for 10 more minutes and then batch
sparge.

I guess that the differences in opinions have to do with a couple of things

1. water to grain ratio
2. what works for you 

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club


		


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:09:46 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: beer in Toronto NOT

Hi Raj,

Unlike Terry, I must say that you will likely *not* enjoy shopping for
beer in Ontario. The LCBO used to always have three or four interesting
belgians in at any time, now they have nothing essentially (their idea of
a lambic selection is Belle Vue and Mort Subite for crying out loud!). The
LCBO is absolutely atrocious when it comes to beer, though there are some
interesting beers on the permanent shelves (Koestritzer, etc.). For the
most part, the LCBO thinks it is serving beer drinkers if it carries every
crappy international lager from every country in the world. They usually
have four or five imports that are not part of the regular line, but at
the moment there's nothing interesting as far as I can see. The LCBO is
even useless for Canadian Microbrews, carrying, for the most part, the
most popular and locally most easily accessible. The beer store is a
little better as they have to carry all of the micros that pay for the
privilege. There at least you will be able to find breweries like
Wellington, Durham County, Magnotta, etc., which have some good beer.

Shopping for beer in Toronto has become appalling as the LCBO has
completely abdicated its responsibility to beer drinkers. Yes, you can
find just about any wine or whiskey you might like, but the beer selection
is grotesquely inadequate. I've seen better import beer selections at a
small bodega in New York than the LCBO, the single biggest purchaser of
alcohol in the world, manages. Pathetic.

Oh, and don't bother telling them the selection is no good, they just
ignore you. I know, I've tried!!

Looking forward to shopping at Sam's in Chicago!

call me pissed,
Robin



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:29:10 -0500 
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Re:  pLambic Questions

Bill is seeking advise on pLambic:

> If using a plambic yeast blend (wyeast), is it neccesary to do primary
fermentation w/ another strain or can I simply pitch the blend?

I have found no advantage to pitching a neutral strain for primary
fermentation.  I have used both blends #3278 Lambic and #3763 Roeselare
without any other primary yeast.  There was very little difference between
the batch with a primary yeast an the other only fermented with the blend.

> If I can have a lambic aging, before bottling, for years, is it aging on
its primary trub OR has it been racked to a secondary?

I recommend you primary ferment with the blend for one to two weeks and then
transfer to secondary.  Consider adding 4 oz of oak chips or cubes during
secondary.  If you have access to some commercial Lambic, seriously consider
adding the dregs from several bottles to your secondary.  I find #3278 lacks
the complexity I'm looking for, so I'm certainly going to add dregs from
commercial examples in the future.  Don't be surprised if the "sourness"
diminishes over time.  My only batch with the Roeselare blend is too young
to draw conclusions.

> What is the order of operation, is it...

Primary w/ blend 1-2 weeks
rack to secondary
   - add oak chips/cubes
   - add dregs from commercial examples for greater complexity
   - if a fruit pLambic, add fruit at this time.
   - age for a minimum of 9 months.  2-3 years I believe is traditional.
bottle (you will need to add additional yeast)
ENJOY!

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club BABBLE  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:13:59 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Counterpressure fill Minikegs?

Jonathan Nail asks about:
> Subject: Counterpressure fill Minikegs?
>
> Has anyone attempted to counterpressure fill a
> minikeg?
>

I've never bothered with CP filling a minikeg, but I've filled them from
larger kegs plenty of times.  However, the fitting I'm going to show you
would make it easy.  Many many years ago my brew buddy and I created this
modification to make filling minikegs easy.  At the time, we couldn't find
replacement bungs, so once we modified the minikeg as shown, we never
removed the bung.  You can force carbonate in the minikeg using this mod,
which makes CP filling unneeded, though if you really wanted to, you could
easily CP fill one--that fitting you see in the photo would allow you to do
almost anything you want:

http://rdcpro.freezope.org/brewing/minikeg

The hard part is the nylon cup seal you see on the head of the keg, sealing
the fitting.  It's actually not that hard to make, but we've used standard
threaded reducers an a large washer with o-rings instead.

Regards,
Mike Sharp


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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:19:13 -0500
From: "3rbecks" <3rbecks at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Mash out

Charles,
I would definitely reccommend doing a mash out for your APA/IPA. As long as
you are sure that you have converted all the starches, the mash out will
keep the dextrine profile that you have planned where you want it. The
recirculation during the mash out will help clarity in the boil kettle and
in the finished beer. The pH of the mash should be set after the
saccrification rest, so just try not to let the mash out temperature go
above 170 degF, to avoid astringency.
Rob
Kansas City




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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:39:28 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Is A Mash-Out Necessary for An APA/IPA?

Charles, a mashout is _never_ necessary...sometimes it may be beneficial, 
but evenm in those cases it won't be a big deal if you don't do one.  I've 
found that most brewers I know don't hold the mashout temp long enough to 
really denature the enzymes anyway.  And if you happen to be batch sparging 
( or maybe even if you're not), you get the wort to a boil so quickly that 
it denatures the enzymes anyway.  The main benefit for me for a mashout is 
that it reduces the viscosity of the wort and raise my efficiency by a 
point or 2....not a big deal!  In general, If it's easy to do a mashout 
(say, by adding boiling water to my cooler tun), I do it...if the tun is 
near full or I miss the temp, no big deal.

         -------------->Denny

At 11:28 PM 8/3/04 -0400, you wrote:


>Hi folks,
>
>I am getting conflicting advice on mashing out an APA/IPA that I am
>planning on making this weekend.  One of brew-buddies is saying that by
>all means I need to do it, and another one says (correctly) that John
>Palmer and other master brewers say it is not necessary.  He adds that
>de-naturing will occur anyway in the boil kettle, so it is redundant and
>that I risk astringency if I performa  mash out and do not closely monitor
>the temperature and pH. Given that I have one of the cheap handheld ATC pH
>meters, I'm tempted to agree with  him.
>
>Anyway, as a reminder, here's what Palmer says in "How to Brew":
>
>reference : http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html
>
>"Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed
>(sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. ... For
>most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the
>mashout is not needed."
>
>I am making an APA that's edging towards an IPA, with Two Row, Munich, as
>well as small amounts of Crystal and Munich.  I plan on a single infusion
>mash with no protein rest.  So, should I do a mash out?
>
>Thanks as ever for your sage advice.
>
>Cheers,
>Charles




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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raj B Apte <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: plambic inoculation

Bill asks about plambic inoculation.

Bill, I think both your options are wrong. When the wort is
boiled, force cool to 50C. You can pitch a tiny amount
(20%) of your plambic mixed starter or just a handfull of
grain at this point. Allow to slowly cool from 50C, maybe
over 12 hours or more. The longer the time between 40 and
50 the 'cleaner' the final taste will be. If you can
measure pH, hold between 40 and 50 until pH delines to 4.5,
then let chill. Once cooled to 25C or less, rack to
fermentation/aging vessel (I do the cooling and first pitch
in kettle). The trub should be left in the cooling tun
(kettle). Then pitch the plambic mixed starter. Wyeast's is
sufficient, you don't need anything else. It starts slowly.
Be careful about oxygenation--do it gently if at all. I
transfer it with splashing and that's it, no airstone.

The brew will live in the fermentation vessel for at least
a year, if not more. Consider HDPE or wood to allow some
oxygen in, or glass to make a more lactic brew. Don't
consider adding fruit until 8 months, though 18 might be
better. The fermentation should be slow and cool. Maybe
12-15C for several weeks. If using wood, replace airlock
with stopper when it starts sucking. If using plastic or
glass, the airlock is fine for the duration. When it gets
warm, it will bubble more.

You didn't say how you would mash, but do concentrate on
making an unfermentable wort. The simplest is infusion at
68C-70C, all the way to the full turbid mash (its on the
web somewhere). If you use a normal wort, you may not
develop enough sourness. 

good luck,
raj



		


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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 14:36:30 -0500
From: Jeremy Hansen <cfjh at eiu.edu>
Subject: MFL? FFL?

I wanted to thank everyone for the great advice on flare fittings. I am
chagrined that I overlooked the flare fitting section on morebeer.com. I
dutifully looked around at all the local propane equipment businesses, and
all the area hardware stores, and they had at best one male flare to barbed
fitting, and had never heard of (?!?) the corresponding nut and flare. This
is what you get for living in Paris,....wait for it....Illinois.

On a whim I stopped at my LHBS, and they gave me a quick disconnect
apparently from pneumatic tools. It is self sealing, and passes a nice long
leak test under pressure. I got two downstream shanks (which are NOT self
sealing, so watch out) so I can dispense with removing hose clamps to change
my setup. He said that for such pressure-worthy disconnects, AutoZone is a
good place to look.

I am a big fan of this fitting.


Thanks, and cheers.

Jeremy Hansen



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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:03:06 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Counterpressure Filling Minikegs

 Jonathan Nail <rocketmunkee at yahoo.com>asks about the subject.  I have
done this a lot.  It is no big deal just use a #3 drilled stopper instead of
the usual #2.

Dan Listermann







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