---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Pumps - Food Grade and Heat Resistant (homebrewdigest)
  Queuing Theory (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  Re: Cleaning Tap Lines ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: Oxidized Beer ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: Re: Queuing Theory ("Pat Babcock")
  Counterpressure Fillers and Oxidation ("Dan Listermann")
  oxidation and bottled beers ("John D. Misrahi")
  CP Madness!!! ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: fermenting coffee (Grant Family)
  re: So you hate bottling- line cleaning ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Draining yeast/trub from conicals (Jack Corbett)
  NYC Brew ("andrew stevens")
  Freezing fresh hops (Chris Locke)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 22:16:19 -0400
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
Subject: Pumps - Food Grade and Heat Resistant

I am interested in purchasing a pump to transfer hot wort among other
liquids.  Can anyone please recommend a good source for an inexpensive pump?
Any other pump purchasing tips will be appreciated.  Thanks for the help.


 - Michael




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 07:36:56 -0400
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: Queuing Theory


>Please cast your eyes upon the humble HTML version of the HBD at hbd.org. In
>the past, clicking "next" on the current issue of the HBD got you a page that
>simply informed you that that issue has not yet been published. Now, I 
>hope you
>will be pleased to find that it provides you with a snapshot of the HBD queue.
>
>Whattaya think?

>Currently, the page is static, updated every 15 minutes, and is only intended
>to be a "proof of concept". It's next iteration will be a realtime look at the
>queue at the click of your mouse...

Pretty Snazzy.  I like it.  I just have two thoughts:
Could you put a link to it in the initial page 
(http://hbd.org/hbd/)?  (Hey, I'm lazy and the extra mouse click takes time! :)
Does it really need to be updated much more often than every 15 
minutes?  Unless you really want to keep up with those programming skills, 
I think a lot of us would be ok with a note in the online page saying: 
"Updated every 15 minutes".


Travis Dahl
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian
A.K.A. A2, MI 




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Tap Lines

Dave Perez writes about the evil dirty tap lines and cleaning: 

snip snip snip...

"There has to be an easier way to do this. What methods do you use?"

At each keg switch I rinse out the line with extremely hot tap water. In my
case that is 172f. Then I do a quick rinse of StarSan. I always have a 5 gallon
cornie of StarSan Premixed and laying around doesn't everyone?

During normal tap use I also reguarly wipe down the taps and sanitize them with
a spray bottle of StarSan to keep them non sticky and flowing freely. 

I really don't think keeping clean lines is as hard and cumbersome as bottling.
Bottling is stinky and sweaty and I hope not to ever have to do it on a regualr
basis again. 

In my old house I had a walkin 5.5' x 10' walkin cooler that had 10 taps
flowing beer at all times ( http://www.brewrats.org/ > Brewing Info > Building
a Walk In Cooler at Home ). It was a pain to keep clean but ever so worth it. I
worked for as a bartender in NYC in college and the owner was crazy about
keeping the lines clean. I now know he was right. 

C'ya!

 -Skotrat

=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club


	
		


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oxidized Beer

Clinitest Dave Burley Writes: 

"Even if you normally counterpressure fill, I recommend you condition your
beer naturally for contests." 

I will second this and go as far to say that all kegged homebrews should be
naturally carbed/krausened. It makes a huge difference. I do my best to grab my
beers a couple points above being done and then rack them to kegs for the
carbonation to happen there. 

"Without a doubt, the head on naturally conditioned beer from the keg has a
superior head and to me a better taste and mouthfeel."

Indeed... 

"You will get a glass or two of cloudy beer but the result for the rest of the
keg is worth it, IMHO."

I definitely agree with this. YEAST IS GOOD for the beer and for the Brewer.
There is a local New Hampshire beer that (Tuckerman Pale Ale) that is bottle 
condition with a lager yeast. It is amazingly smooth, has those tiny bubbles
and great head. Naturally carbed keg beer or slightly force carbed beer from
the keg definitely have that smooth taste and mouthfeel.

"I have never had the stability of yeast conditioned beer in counterpressure
filled bottles."

I still believe as previously stated that process and equipment are to blame
more than lack of natural conditioning.
 
"I had to give up on filtering beer"

Filtering HomeBrew is just down right silliness. Been there... Done that... Not
the path homebrewers or Pros should be following in my opinionated opinion. 

OH DEAR GOD! I have agreed with Dave!

C'ya!

 -Scott "writing my apology letter to Al K. as we speak" Abene

SAVE THE PLAID!

=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club


		


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:55:16 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Queuing Theory

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu> writes...

> Pretty Snazzy.  I like it.  I just have two thoughts:
> Could you put a link to it in the initial page 
> (http://hbd.org/hbd/)?  (Hey, I'm lazy and the extra mouse click takes
> time! :)

Not in its current instantiation (remember: it's only proof-of-concept at the
moment...) To keep it compatible with the HTMLized Digest, the script writes
the file into the archive as the next digest. To link it on the main page, I'd
have to update the links on the main page each day. Not worth the effort...

In it's NEXT life, it will be a cgi script that executes when you click the
button (hence: the term real-time). This will also require a minor rewrite to 
the HBD-to-HTML script ro redefine the "next" button generated with each new 
Digest...

> Does it really need to be updated much more often than every 15 
> minutes?  Unless you really want to keep up with those programming skills,
> I think a lot of us would be ok with a note in the online page saying:
> "Updated every 15 minutes".

Actually, I ended up making it update every five, but I won't split hairs :^).
This was done more for me to ensure it was working without waiting forever to 
verify that it was working properly, than for unsers' convenience, but then I
figgered I'd just leave it that way. I prefer the planned cgi method that will 
create the page "on the fly". Once that's completed, a link on the main page 
is possible. I'm also planning to add a web-submission portal. This will be 
designed to allow "registered" HBD subscribers to make posts from the web; 
however, this will not "come to pass" until AFTER I finish redesigning the 
HBD's subscription engine since you'll need a username/password combo to 
authenticate yourself. (See? Status quo sucks. Change is constant. Change is 
(usually) good...)


- --

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE MI
pbabcock at hbd.org



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 13:59:26 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Counterpressure Fillers and Oxidation

<Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: I hate bottling

So... Jeff (or anyone else)...

Is it the CP bottlers?
Is it laziness by the brewers to bottle correctly (Off the cobra tap)
Is it the kegging process used by the homebrewer?
Is it just that homebrew does not stay "fresh" as long if not bottle
conditioned?>

I imagine that oxidation problems in homebrew counterpressure fillers comes
from the same problem that causes commercial breweries to obsess about air
in the head space of the bottles.  When the filler is withdrawn from the
bottle, air is sucked into the head space.  Commercial brewers induce foam
into he head space by "knocking" the bottle or blasting a jet of CO2 or
water into the head space.  The process is called "fobbing." The foam, being
very rich in CO2, pushes the O2 in the air out of the headspace.  The cap is
then installed on a bed of CO2 foam minimizing O2 in the head space.  I
heard of a bottling line that actually manages to fill the bottles in a bath
of CO2 so that the gas drawn into the head space is not air, but CO2.

Essentially the problem is the counter pressure fillers.  No matter how much
your counterpressure filler costs, if it does not make the bottle "fob," it
will allow air into the bottle.

Dan Listermann








Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:16:34 -0700
From: "John D. Misrahi" <lmoukhin at sprint.ca>
Subject: oxidation and bottled beers

I have a question about this subject....everyone is saying that C-P filled
bottles are more prone to oxidation...but there are a few experincd
tasters/judges who always taste my bottled beers and pronounce them oxidized
9 out of 10 times (though *generally* otherwise good)...I did a bunch of
study and tasting sessions and passed the BJCP exam and I like to think I
know what oxidation tastes like..and I think I agree with them...I fill all
my bottles in the 'normal' fashion with a phil's philler (no C-P
filler)...where in the process could this oxidation be happening if there is
no such thing as HSA?

John Misrahi
Dazed and Confused (And out of homebrew) in Montreal, Canada




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 14:44:01 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: CP Madness!!!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

It's not that difficult to make your CPBF bottled beer fob. Simply rap the 
bottle with something just before capping, or accelerate the flow just before 
shutting it off and cap immediately. I've never had a problem with this. On 
the contrary - at times, I've had problems with the beer fobbing too much!

Also, there is generally a bit more pressure in the bottle after CP bottling. 
My hand-held unit usually pops out of the bottle after a fill - hard to 
imagine air getting "sucked" in with the velocity at which the filler propels 
itself from the bottle when I relinquish my death-grip on it! Of course, if 
you are bottling in a temperature-controlled environment where the air, beer, 
bottle, filler, et al. are at the same temperature, this may not be the case, 
but my air conditioner can't get my kitchen anywhere hear as cold as my 
freezer gets the beer :^) There is bound to be out-gassing...

The key may be in the rather simplified and, perhaps, misguided understanding 
of the dynamics between gasses of differing densities we use when once gas is 
flowing into the space occupied by  another. The simplified model has the CO2 
doing a "bottom-up" fill of the vessel, displacing the air. I think this is 
not quite what happens, particularly with the CO2 rushing in from the top of 
the vessel (cornie keg gas-in). This simplified model assumes no mechanical 
mixing of the gasses occurs. But, even at a "gentle" rate, the gasses will mix 
at their boundaries. I'd imagine that, with the maelstrom created by pressurized 
CO2 entering a vessel whose contents are at or near atmosheric pressure, the 
mixing is occuring at a much higher rate. There can still be substantial air 
and, therefor, oxygen in the vessel after a typical purge!

I'd recommend that you use a beverage fitting rigged to your CO2 tank to allow 
you to fill your cornie with CO2 from the bottom of the keg just as the CPBF 
does in the bottle. Just crack the valve at the regulator to to allow the CO2 
to s-l-o-w-l-y flow into the keg, and let it continue for several minutes 
after you achieve the familiar CO2 nose-burn from sniffing at the safety vent 
of the keg. I believe  that using this method of "purge", will help further 
minimize the amount of air in the keg, and ensure that the keg environment has 
a very HIGH concentration of CO2 v.s. air. Afterward, you may want to close 
the vent, and ramp the pressure to that which you'll want the beer under in 
order to set the cornie's lid seal. (Be sure to vent this pressure before 
continuing with your fill :^) When filling the keg, first vent the pressure 
used to set the lid, then use low CO2 pressure at the head of the fermented 
beer in the secondary, and moderate the flow using the safety vent. When I 
wasn't being a lazy brewer, this was how I handled the process, and oxidation 
flavor notes were very rarely among the complaints I's recieved regarding my 
beers (now, if I could just kill the pedio infection my Orval clone gave to my 
draft system...).

Note that you can take this advice with a grain of salt, since I'm now one of 
the laziest brewers in history, depending on the generosity of others to slake 
my thirst for fine homebrews (and a hearty THANK YOU to those who have been my 
benefactors!)

- --

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE MI
pbabcock at hbd.org


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 11:30:02 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: fermenting coffee

Dave Burley wrote:
>One method of preparing coffee beans is by fermenting the whole berry
>first and then separating the bean before roasting. This gives the coffee
>a recognizable tang.

There's also this distinctive way of "fermenting" coffee cherries:
[from "The Complete Guide to Coffee"]
"Kopi Luak comes from the droppings of the Luak animal, containing
undigested coffee beans. The beans are collected, washed and
processes - the resulting coffee is considered a rare delicacy by coffee
lovers."

Cheers,
Stuart Grant,
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:11:44
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: So you hate bottling- line cleaning

David Perez cleans his brew lines by pushing line cleaner from a keg then
water thru the lines and wants to know of an easier way.  

I use cobra taps and 3/16" tubing and just flush them with hot tap water
using a beer-out keg post fitted to tubing (a 3/8" flare fitting screws in
the base of the post from a Challenger cornie) which gets attached to a
water facuet.  Just connect the disconnect to the post, lock the cobra tap
open and turn on the hot water.  I flush for a minute or two then drain/dry
the line by disconnecting the tubing from the facuet (with the post still
attached to disconnect) and hanging the line up.  


c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:05:39 -0700
From: Jack Corbett <jwcorbett at wavecable.com>
Subject: Draining yeast/trub from conicals

For those of you using 12-15 gal conicals, how much yeast/trub do you 
drain off after most of the fermentation is completed?  Should I wait 
'til  most of the fermentation is completed (3-6 days), or begin sooner 
and do a bit each day.  When I was brewing with 2 carboys, it seems 
that I left about 1 to 1.5 quarts of yeast/trub in the bottom after 
siphoning per carboy...so I'm wondering if I should double that amount 
for draining in the 12 gal carboy... 



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:17:28 -0700
From: "andrew stevens" <ace at cox.net>
Subject: NYC Brew

I'm surprized no one has suggested the best Belgian Beer Bar this side of
Belgium (and possibly better than most IN Belgium) "Spuyten Duyvle"
("Spitting Devil" in Old Flemmish).

Can any of you New Yorkers provide directions?

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 16:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Locke <lockechris at yahoo.com>
Subject: Freezing fresh hops

I am getting ready to harvest my hops and was
wondering why they should be dried first.  Can't I
just freeze them immediately after harvesting?

Thanks for any advice,
Chris.


	
		


Return to table of contents

---