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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Queue, queue on the web... ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: McSorley's NYC beer (Peter Flint)
  My new favorite brewing book (John Palmer)
  So you hate bottling (David Perez)
  Re:  I Hate Bottling ("Dennis Collins")
  Re: 'I Hate Bottling'  & J. Renner's Post (cboyer)
  Green coffee and cardamom ("Jim Bermingham")
  Oxidized beers, fermenting coffee and cardamom ("Dave Burley")
  RE: I hate bottling ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Re: NYC Beer ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  Proto-brewer seeks the Experienced (T.R.\)" <tdube@ford.com>
  RE: I hate bottling ("Bridges, Scott")
  Beer and Sweat 2004 ("Jenny and Brian Becker")
  Re: NYC Beer ("B.R. Rolya")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:19:11 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Queue, queue on the web...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Now that the recent debacle regarding HBD deliveries seems to be behind me,
and never being satisfied with the status quo (or staus queue, in this
case :^), I have modified HBD operations to, I hope, your benefit.

Please cast your eyes upon the humble HTML version of the HBD at hbd.org. In
the past, clicking "next" on the current issue of the HBD got you a page that
simply informed you that that issue has not yet been published. Now, I hope you
will be pleased to find that it provides you with a snapshot of the HBD queue.

Whattaya think?

Currently, the page is static, updated every 15 minutes, and is only intended
to be a "proof of concept". It's next iteration will be a realtime look at the
queue at the click of your mouse...

- --

See ya!

The Troll Beneath the HBD Bridge
Pat Babcock in SE MI
pbabcock at hbd.org


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:25:44 -0400
From: Peter Flint <peterflint at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: McSorley's NYC beer


On Aug 5, 2004, at 11:40 PM,

> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:5	7:52 -0400
> From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NYC Beer
>
> For those of you who know NYC and also know beer, what about
> McSorley's Ale House?
>

I have to admit as a long time New Yorker that I've never been in 
McSorley's.  It always gave me a slightly touristy impression.  The 
Corner Bistro in the West Village also has McSorley's Ale and Dark Ale. 
  I've always felt that both were somewhat unremarkable.  Not too strong 
and able to be drunk in quantity but without much depth.  I certainly 
don't go out of my way for it.

Peter Flint, NYC



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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:15:05 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: My new favorite brewing book

I have a new favorite brewing book - Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher. I 
must admit that I was put off by the title at first. "Radical Brewing? 
I don't want to brew weird stuff, I want to brew good stuff..." But 
after I had a chance to browse thru a copy, I realized there was 
nothing weird about it. It is full of really interesting information 
that I had not known or barely heard of before. It is radical in that I 
never imagined that brewing had been done in this or that way before, 
but there it is. This is a spectrum of brewing, brews, and brewers.

How to describe it??
Broadly, it is like Designing Great Beers in that it presents the 
ingredients of brewing, the methods for using them and how various beer 
styles were developed by using those ingredients.
The difference could be described in this way though: If DGB were 
described as a university course in the main lecture hall on brewing, 
then Radical Brewing is sitting down with the Prof one-on-one, while he 
regales with his experiences and pours you samples as he talks. And, if 
you know Randy, then this description of his book is self-explanatory. 
It really is a book that you will pick up and read for the fun of it. 
There are lots of interesting recipes, and his discussion makes you 
want to try them.

He also includes a tour of his Buck-a-Pound brewery. He is one of the 
original do-it-yourselfers.

Radical Brewing? Nah, only if you believe the sun orbits the earth. 
(Now I know better).
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing




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Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 07:14:50 -0400
From: David Perez <perez at gator.net>
Subject: So you hate bottling

So, I'm cleaning my taps and lines in preparation for our club meeting 
tonight and boy this is a pain. I use a 3 or 5 gal cornie push cleaning 
solution with Co2. I put about 2 gallons or so of line cleaner or pbw in 
the cornie and run a couple of pints through each of the 4 lines.They 
soak for about 15 to 20 minutes and then I run the rest of the cleaner 
through. Now I have to clean out the cornie and push some plain water 
through to rinse.

There has to be an easier way to do this. What methods do you use?

Dave Perez
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL
Home of the 2nd Annual Hogtown Brew-Off, October 16, 2004




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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:27:24 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Re:  I Hate Bottling

Jeff Renner writes:
"My conclusion is that counter-pressure bottling is problematic...."

Amen brother!  Tell it like it is!  I have struggled with counter pressure
bottling for quite a while now.  Even to the point of building an all
stainless steel counter pressure bottle filler after I read an article on
the evils of brass in contact with post fermented beer
(www.stainlessone.com/DPS11020-8pgReprint.pdf).  The results were better,
but in the end, after a few weeks, the beer in the bottle was nothing like
the beer out of the keg.

Now days, I bottle for short term convenience - beer for friends and club
meetings.  For these, I fill right from the tap.  It's much easier and the
beer is usually consumed within hours.  The stainless steel bottler is
mostly gathering dust.  I wholeheartedly agree with Jeff, long term CP'd
beer is problematic.  If you're going to need bottled beer long term, split
your batch and bottle condition, your efforts will be rewarded.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com



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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: cboyer at ausoleil.org
Subject: Re: 'I Hate Bottling'  & J. Renner's Post

I will completely agree with you about this Jeff, that yeast scavenges all
of the available oxygen in a closed system.  I know, I proved this to
myself using a gas chromatograph in the early '90's when I ran across
Jackson's writings on the subject and I was having problems with CP
filling from kegs.  My beers were going bad quicker than they were
maturing, and it was frustrating.  Then, one day, I had no available kegs,
and "went back" to bottling and bottle conditioning, which at the time
seemed counter-intuitive.  Everyone at the time (and this sentiment still
seems to exist) felt that bottling was too much work and that kegging was
the way to go.

Nothing against kegging, mind you, but since I brew a variety of beer
styles, I like having options when it is Beer-Thirty.  Kegs, to me, take
this away and require me to drink whatever is on tap.

Anyway, I shot some gas out of the headspace of several bottles through a
GC, and lo and behold O2 was in extremely short supply -- in fact, it was
down in the noise of the instrument, which was a professional lab quality
HP device -- in other words, this was no playtoy.

Save for a short excursion into 5 liter kegs, I have bottled everything
ever since.  Given that some of my trippels and other big beers take
months and months to truly come into their own, this was one of the best
things I ever did for my beer.  YMMV.

Now then, a question (and thanks if you have read this far) -- in a C-P
filling operation, would adding an oxygen scavenger like ascorbic acid
retard or eliminate the oxidation with little/no consequence to the beer?

Cheers all, and happy weekend.
Charles

http://www.homebrewhelp.com
Searchable HBD archives.


>
> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:28:34 -0400
> From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re:  I Hate Bottling
<SNIP>
> It has been well recognized for years, especially by British beer
> authors like Michael Jackson, that bottle conditioned beers are more
> stable.  It's not that the yeast actually consumes all the O2 in the
> head space (I think George Fix demonstrated this).  I think that it
> is that yeast is a powerful anti-oxidant.



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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 08:19:20 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Green coffee and cardamom

 Alex of Montreal asked about drink brewed with green coffee beans and
cardamom.  Alex this is Arabic Coffee.  Not to be confused with Turkish
Coffee.  Arabic coffee is made by crushing lightly roasted coffee beans with
a mortar and pestle, then adding twice the amount of cardamom seeds as the
crushed beans, along with 1 teaspoon of sugar for each small cup of coffee
to be served.  Water is then added and the mixture is then brought to a boil
and then filtered as it is poured into a serving pot.  The traditional
coffee cups used for this drink is about the same size and shape as the cups
used in Chinese restaurants for the green tea.  Sometimes the host will add
a pinch of saffron or cloves to make the drink extra special and spicy. 

This is a very traditional drink in the Arabian countries.  One of the first
things a guest is asked upon entering a home is if you would like a cup of
coffee.  The host, not the hostess prepares the coffee and he is the one
that serves it.  After preparation, the coffee is put into a brass coffee
pot, then host will pour a small amount into a cup and taste the coffee to
ensure (and to show his guests) that the coffee is suitable for his guests
and that it has just the right flavor.  After determining so, he proceeds to
pour coffee for the primary guest and then serves each guest following that.
After each guest is served, he pours a cup for himself and joins them.
Traditionally the men are served then the ladies.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:59:47 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Oxidized beers, fermenting coffee and cardamom

Brewsters:

I agree with Jeff. I have also always experienced a lot of oxidized beers when
judging and especially with lagers.I have wondered if this has to do also with
hot wort handling, and that many of the beers were extract derived.

 Even if you normally counterpressure fill, I recommend you condition your
beer naturally for contests. You may also learn something if you do a triangle
test on your own beers, comparing naturally conditioned and counterpressure
filled bottles from the same batch, esp as a function of time.

Without a doubt, the head on naturally conditoned beer from the keg has a
superior head and to me a better taste and mouthfeel. I have proposed in the
past this is due to the presence of small amounts of yeast which act as points
for the bubble to form, giving a finer bead. You will get a glass or two of
cloudy beer but the result for the rest of the keg is worth it, IMHO.

I have never had the stability of yeast conditioned beer in counterpressure
filled bottles.  I had to give up on filtering beer as I found no matter how I
purged the filter I couldn't get all of the air out.
- -----------
AleX in Montreal comments on a beverage made with green coffee beans and
cardamom. I doubt the green coffee beans would give you much extract, as the
key to coffee is the roasting of the beans.

Actually cardamom is an ancient and commonly used ingredient in the Middle
East in coffee and I have had some Starbucks blends that taste as though they
have cardamom in them.

I have tried roasting cardamom with the green beans and also adding it to to
the cofee maker with some success, but it needs more work, as I enjoy the
coffee just as I roast it too much to fiddle.

One method of preparing coffee beans is by fermenting the whole berry first
and then separating the bean before roasting. This gives the coffee a
recognizable tang.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: I hate bottling

The honorable Jeff Renner Writes:

"My conclusion is that counter-pressure bottling is problematic.  A 
second conclusion is that brewers of delicate styles should rebrew 
for MCAB and NHC second round."

Then The Evil BrewHolio taunts the group with a seemingly never ending
diatribe:

I believe that for the most part counter-pressure bottling is not entirely to
be blamed. I know many first and second round winners that bottle on foam
directly off the cobra tap. As my 15 year old daughter would say "Dude...
That's just wrong...". 

I have also noticed that most homebrewers do not vent the keg of outside air
once they have racked the beer into the keg and pressurized it with Co2. This
to me may be the biggest cause of oxidation out there. It might also be why it
is not so apparent in the first round of the NHC. I say this because I know
from personal experience that if I have 12 weeks to the first round entry
deadline I will brew like a madman to get in as many entries in as many
categories as I can. So by the time the first round hits 90% of my entries are
less than 2 weeks in their respective bottles. 

How can a beer not end up being oxidized if it is racked/kegged/bottled in this
way and then shipped to where ever the comp is I ask? 

I also believe that in many cases improper use of handheld counter-pressure
bottlers is to be blamed. Many times brewers are not pressurizing the bottles
and venting out the air before they fill the bottle with beer from the keg.
Therefore, they are not truly counter pressure bottling are they? I must also
admit to having total and complete contempt for hand held CP bottlers. I do not
think there is a single model out there that is worth its weight or cost. 

I rarely bottle any longer but when I do I use my MELVICO Counter-pressure
bottler. A brewing buddy and myself bought one back in 1995-96 from VINOTEQUE
for about $300 delivered. I believe that MELVICO is now out of business though.
I have not experienced any oxidation in my bottled beers since using the
MELVICO. When using any of the available hand held CP bottlers I cannot make
the same statement. 

So... Jeff (or anyone else)... 

Is it the CP bottlers? 
Is it laziness by the brewers to bottle correctly (Off the cobra tap)
Is it the kegging process used by the homebrewer?
Is it just that homebrew does not stay "fresh" as long if not bottle
conditioned?

Thoughts?

C'ya!

 -Skotrat

=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club


		


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 07:22:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: NYC Beer

Hey Now, 

I grew up about two blocks from McSorley's. It was never really a place that
Locals went. It has always been a tourist trap. If you head down towards Avenue
A and 1st Avenue you will find some better all around beer bars. 

For instance, Check out DBA on the lower east side. There is not many better
selections around beer wise. Long ago back in the day I used to chef at an old
prohibition bar in the west village that is called "Chumleys". I still love
that place even though it has become a bit trendy since several newspaper
articles have been written on it. Take cash though... They accept no credit. 

On a recent trip back to NYC I was extremely disappointed in the quality of the
Brew Pubs and their beer. Everything in Manhattan Brew Pub wise seemed very
pedestrian. 

Just some thoughts from a die hard New Yorker now living in New England. 

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
 - BeetleJuice

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club


		


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:23:57 -0400
From: "Dube, Terry \(T.R.\)" <tdube at ford.com>
Subject: Proto-brewer seeks the Experienced

I am thinking of brewing my first beer.  Are there any home brewers
in or around Windsor, Ontario?

Best Regards,
Terry Dube.
Windsor,Ontario
Canada.



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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:38:18 -0400 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: RE: I hate bottling


The inestimable Jeff Renner writes:
snip
>It has been well recognized for years, especially by British beer 
>authors like Michael Jackson, that bottle conditioned beers are more 
>stable.  It's not that the yeast actually consumes all the O2 in the 
>head space (I think George Fix demonstrated this).  I think that it 
>is that yeast is a powerful anti-oxidant.
snip
>My conclusion is that counter-pressure bottling is problematic. 

Hi Jeff,
Just asking for clarifications to explore this further....  I keg these
days, and don't ever CP fill bottles.  So, I can't offer any personal
experience with this.  

I understand that a bottled conditioned beer has more active yeast than a CP
bottled beer.  The cold conditioning causing much of the yeast to drop out,
and presumably be left behind at the bottom of the keg.  However, a CP
filled beer does still have live yeast assuming no filtration, just less,
right?  So, then is it a matter of the qty of live yeast?  A bottle
conditioned beer has more yeast that live on until the beer is consumed.  Or
is it during the act of bottle conditioning that the yeast prophylactically
prevents the oxidation from occurring at a later time?  

Just to take this a step further, could you "bottle" condition in a keg
(recall recent HBD questions about keg conditioning with sugar), then CP
fill, *and* get the same benefit?  Or does the inherent addition of O2
during CP filling negate the benefits of the live yeast conditioning.  I
know it doesn't take many PPM of O2 to oxidize a beer.  Could you, say, add
live yeast upon CP bottling to improve the long term stability of
artificially carbonated kegged beer?

I'd be interested in hearing more discussion on this.  It might have some
bearing on ways to make for more stable CP filled bottles.  

Thanks,
Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC




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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:32:39 -0400
From: "Jenny and Brian Becker" <jenandbri at fuse.net>
Subject: Beer and Sweat 2004

Attention homebrewing world!!!

    This is your last reminder that the world's greatest all-draft homebrew
competition is fast approaching.  That's right, Beer and Sweat takes place
Saturday, August 21st, at the Holiday Inn Cincinnati Eastgate!  Get your
entries in ASAP!  (You have one week to get pre-registered.)
    For those of you who have lived deprived lives, Beer and Sweat is the
oldest and largest all-draft (keg-only) homebrew competition in the world.
Each year the Bloatarian Brewing League of Cincinnati conducts a secret
ritual to bless the upcoming homebrewing high season.  Saints and gods and
the uber-cool Bosmo are toasted, cheered, and sometimes jeered at the annual
ritual; but, ultimately, they are responsible for the phenomenal amount of
good beer at Beer and Sweat.  (There were 156 entries last year, and we're
expecting more this year!)  In keeping with our pagan Celtic roots, we have
the outstanding Celtic band, Roger Drawdy and the Firestarters, play from
7:00 till 11:00 PM.  We also seem to have an unusually large amount of
bourbon barrel-aged entries!?!
    Anyway, I'd advise you to check out http://hbd.org/bloat/sweat2004.html
and come to Cincinnati to see what all the fuss is about-- that is, IF you
can handle that much fun?!?

    See all the worthy there...
    Brian C. Becker
    jenandbri at fuse.net



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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:55:41 -0400
From: "B.R. Rolya" <br at triagemusic.com>
Subject:  Re: NYC Beer


Jeff Renner writes:
>For those of you who know NYC and also know beer, what about
>McSorley's Ale House?
>Reviews at
<snip>
>are generally very positive on atmosphere, although a few feel it is
>a tourist trap.  And nearly all praise the ale, but I wonder if they
>are just taken in by the atmosphere.
>
>So, how is the beer?  How would you describe it?  I suspect it's
>American cream ale and American cream ale plus caramel, but I don't
>know.


I live a few blocks east of McSorely's and haven't been there in years.
It's most definitely a tourist/frat boy destination with a line down the
street to get in on the weekends.  Local wits suggest that if your out of
town friends desire to go there, you should arrive up the little street
connecting 6th & 7th (T. Shevchenkco Pl.) so that they can savor the aroma
of over-indulgence which is often enough to turn the stomach and make them
more amenable to suggestions to go elsewhere.

It is a very old bar, however, and could be an interesting cultural stop on
a quiet weekday afternoon on the way to better beer spots.  If you just
want to try the beer, Sophie's (on E. 5th between A & B) serves it in mugs
for $2 (they raised the price from $1.50 a few years back and some patrons
are *still* complaining) and doesn't tend to get as crowded until later in
the night.  The atmosphere at Sophie's, however, leaves something to be
desired...  Order a "light" or a "dark".

I honestly don't remember too much about the beer except that it's a step
above Bud, etc.  The dark does have more flavor so I assume that there's a
bit of roast malt in there.  They were bottling it for a while and might
still be doing so (contract-brewed) but if I recall correctly, the bottled
version isn't quite the same as on draft.

My homebrew club's website has a "Beer Alert" section which lists the good
beer bars in the city plus tap lists (http://hbd.org/mbas/beer.html).  Most
of these have been mentioned already but my favorites are (in Manhattan)
Blind Tiger, dba, Zum Schneider, and Waterfront (which also has a location
in Brooklyn); in Brooklyn: Mug's Ale House, Spuyten Duyvil, Brooklyn
Brewery (open friday evenings and saturday afternoons), and the Gate.
Sadly Sparky's - one of my favorites - is closing tonight.


 - BR Rolya
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
NYC
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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---