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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Berliner Weisse and Alt (Roger Deschner)
  Groggy's Rain Water ("Phil Yates")
  Something from up North(not Oliver for those remembering) (Thomas Rohner)
  RE: Grind and Efficiency (gornicwm)
  Yeast Problems ( maybe) ("Dave Burley")
  mash efficiency ("Dave Burley")
  Beer Fun in Milwaukee? ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Except extracts & kits, how do you brew without mashing? (Bill Velek)
  Upper Mississippi Mashout (Bill Velek)
  Container Gardening General (T.R.\)" <tdube@ford.com>
  Cleaning Sankey Fermenters. ("Dan Listermann")
  RE: Grind & Efficiency ("Richard S Sloan")
  Sanke keg fermenter ("Jay Spies")
  pLambic Newbie (gornicwm)
  Re: Cleaning Sankey Keg fermenter (Jeff Renner)
  Enlightenment ("Jim Bermingham")


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:58:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Roger Deschner <rogerd at uic.edu>
Subject: Re: Berliner Weisse and Alt

Your first recipe (with the Pils malt) is more authentic, although it
sounds like you are way off in your hop calculations somehow (Perhaps
that batch of Spalt wasn't really 4.5%AA.) because this beer should have
been over 50 IBUs and very noticably bitter, according to your recipe.
How much of that 3 oz did you boil for the full time? In Dusseldorf they
boil the bejesus out of those hops and yet they still get some hop
aroma, simply because there is such a huge green mass of low-alpha
hop vegetation in there. Target bitterness is 50 IBU.

The sulfur nose is authentic, and is quite noticable in the beers as
served in Dusseldorf. It comes from the yeast strains.

Process is critical! This beer depends on a warm primary fermentation,
like an ale, and then cold conditioning, like a lager, which dulls down
the ale esters without removing them completely.

Visit http://www.uerige.de (which has an English option) for more
details.

There is still, 18 years after I first visited Dusseldorf, no decent
Altbier brewed in the United States. Several of my favorite micro
brewers have produced laughably bad Altbiers. The closest thing we have
to it is Anchor Steam, or the increasingly frequent well-made home
brewed examples. Fly to Dusseldorf and try it for yourself - there in
its home it is a magical brew.

Roger Deschner                                            rogerd at uic.edu
============ "Beer is the reason we get up each afternoon." ============
================ -- McNeill's Brewery, Brattleboro, VT =================

>From: Robert Sandefer <robertsandefer at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Berliner Weisse and Alt
>
<snip>
>Alt:
>
>Between Designing Great Beers and the HBD archives,
>there seems to be a big question as to the best grist
>for Dusseldorf altbier. Unfortunately, I have not
>tasted the real thing so all comments are based on my
>personal opinion as to which was the better beer.
>
>I brewed two 5-gal batches. Each was bittered with 3oz
>Spalt (4.5% alpha acids), fermented with Wyeast
>European ale yeast, and bottled with 4oz corn sugar.
>
>The first had a grist of 7.5 lbs German pilsener malt,
>2 lbs light German Munich malt, .5 lb German
>Caramunich, and 3 oz Carafa II.
>
>The second (based on Al K's posts) had a grist of 9
>lbs light German Munich malt, 1 lb Belgian aromatic
>malt, and 1 oz Carafa II.
>
>These two beers are decent and not that similiar. The
>first's taste was sulfury and roasted with hints of
>malt, chocolate, earth, and herb. The second (my
>favorite) was malty, nutty, chocolate with hints of
>earth and herb.
>
>PS Anyone looking for a decent dunkelweizen grist,
>here one is: 50% Munich malt 50% wheat malt (thanks
>Jeff Renner!).
>
>Robert Sandefer
>Novato, CA


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:08:22 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Groggy's Rain Water

Groggy Greg says:

>One obvious reason: if somebody says "I've tried that, and it gives
>results that makes Bud Light look good", you might save yourself a lot
>of effort and some expense.

You've missed my point entirely Groggy. Fred got told a 20 minute mash works
real fine. Now he wants to have data to convince him this is so. I'm not
saying a 20 minute mash does work (as I have eliminated mashing all
together - can't see why you'd bother even doing 20 minutes), but you can
accept the guys results or not. If you're half way inclined to accept his
results - give it a bloody go yourself, if you are curious. You don't need
further data on the matter. You could find enough data to send you round and
round in circles for months and still not know who the hell to believe. If
you want data before you do it, check out the Cof A of the malt you are
using beforehand. How many homebrewers ever check a malt Cof A? How do you
know what the DP is?!!, if you don't see the Cof A?

Then Groggy further says in relation to using heavy wort aeration and adding
magnesium to his wort:

>So which made the difference?  To find out, I'd have to retrace my
>steps and make another ruined batch of beer.  Guess how much interest
>I have in doing that.

So whose data is going to tell you Groggy? You've just proved to yourself
that you could resolve your problem. Certainly there is plenty of helpful
information to come out of HBD. But people who think this is a science lab
are having themselves on. For a start, there are no controlled experiments
between brewers. Some do their own. For all I know Groggy, you could well
have wombats crapping in your rain water tanks, or even the next door
neighbour who maybe doesn't like you? You have your rain water under
suspicion but who in here knows what you are really brewing with?

All you can really say is the pesky phenolic taste in your beer seems to
have gone since you heavily aerated the wort and poured some magnesium in.

If you want to now go and find a book with data to prove your results, good
luck. You can join Fred in the same library.

Phil





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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:02:47 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Something from up North(not Oliver for those remembering)

SEATTLE, Washington (Reuters) -- A black bear was found passed out at a 
campground in Washington state recently after guzzling down three dozen 
cans of a local beer, a campground worker said on Wednesday.

"We noticed a bear sleeping on the common lawn and wondered what was 
going on until we discovered that there were a lot of beer cans lying 
around," said Lisa Broxson, a worker at the Baker Lake Resort, 80 miles 
(129 kilometers) northeast of Seattle.

The hard-drinking bear, estimated to be about two years old, broke into 
campers' coolers and, using his claws and teeth to open the cans, 
swilled down the suds.

It turns out the bear was a bit of a beer sophisticate. He tried a 
mass-market Busch beer, but switched to Rainier Beer, a local ale, and 
stuck with it for his drinking binge.

Wildlife agents chased the bear away, but it returned the next day, said 
Broxson.

They set a trap using as bait some doughnuts, honey and two cans of 
Rainier Beer. It worked, and the bear was captured for relocation.





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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:59:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: gornicwm at earthlink.net
Subject: RE: Grind and Efficiency

Andrew,

My club had the same issues with our club system (a PICO brew system).

We had similar efficiency numbers to yours and have recently improved our 
efficiency into the 80% range!!!

It turns out that OUR main culprit was the speed of the lauter.  If you
lauter/sparge too quickly your efficiency will suffer.  Some members in our
club spent some time with the system and actually built a neat little 
contraption that rests on the PICO and shows the volume that we are sparging
off.

Long story short, slowing the sparge may help.  For a 5 gallon batch your 
sparge should be taking 30-45 minutes, at least.

- ---------

Other tips to improve efficiency (IMHO):

Perform a mash-out
Conduct and Iodine test to ensure conversion
Grain crush, of course

- ---------

 ...Slow and steady sparge is PROBABLY your key, though.

Bill Gornicki
CRAFT Homebrew Club
Michigan


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:23:23 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Yeast Problems ( maybe)

Mike Swayza asks why his yeast pooped out on his second reuse of the yeast and
asks what to do with his carboy which has stopped fermenting at 1.028.

It's what you did the last use that likely matters.

A high SG ( and resulting high alcohol) is reputed to damage the yeast to some
extent, although I have never really found such a problem.

A low amino acid content  in the previous brew ( e.g. lots of sugar or
adjuncts like a lawnmower beer) and even in the present brew will not allow
the yeast to go to a high alcohol content.

A poorly developed cell wall, due to too many replications of the yeast
without an opportunity to develop a new supply of sterols in the cell wall,
can be cured by allowing the pure malt starter to be heavily oxygenated by
stirring during the growth phase of the yeast and before pitching. Be sure to
pour off this stale starter beer ( and even rinse with cold sterilized water)
before pitching.

Lastly ( I'd do this first)  check to be sure you really have a yeast problem
as you can have a high final SG if you have lots of dextrins generated by too
high a mash temperature and have no fermentables left. My favorite way to do
this? Clinitest, of course.

If you really do have a problem yeast , then I'd pitch a new version and add a
yeast nutrient to be sure. Assuming, of course, that things like temperature
are appropriate for your yeast.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:48:54 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: mash efficiency

Andrew,

Without a doubt milling has a major effect on your efficiency and rate of
sparging as I showed many years ago when I developed the two pass milling
procedure to emulate a four roll mill in an amateur setting..

To be efficient at milling, start with the nip closed and  open the nip just
to the point that the malt grinds quickly and is cracked.  The husk will be
intact.  Grind again using the same procedure but at a smaller nip and you
will have a good grind which will efficiently and quickly sparge since the
husks will be intact and you will not have malt dust from too fine a grind.

You can improve your efficiency also by not
batch sparging but by doing it continuously.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 9:11:23 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Beer Fun in Milwaukee?

A buddy from NC is coming up to Madison to see why I've 
been raving about the beer for the past couple of months 
and we're planning a side trip to Milwaukee to visit his 
ex-roommate and get him to buy a few beers for a change 
(at the time that he was rooming with Brian, Andy was in 
grad-school and broke).

I've got the weekend figured out for Madison, but I don't 
know what highlites there are for Milwaukee. Keep in mind 
that we'll only be there for about 6 hours, so we want to 
hit only the *best* spots for beer guys.

Thanks for any help!

Rick




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:21:58 -0500
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Except extracts & kits, how do you brew without mashing?

In HBD No. 4586, Phil Yates said:

I've recently discovered you can make superb beer, without doing any 
mashing at all. But I doubt my enlightenment would be of any interest in 
this forum.

Well, Phil, I figured someone would have asked in the last digest, but I 
guess I'll be the one to bite on this one: how do you make beer without 
mashing?  Obviously we all know about kits and extract brewing, so I 
assume that you have something else in mind.

Thanks.

Bill Velek




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:26:19 -0500
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Upper Mississippi Mashout

In HBD No. 4587, Steve Fletty made mention of a brewing competition in 
Mississippi.  I had heard that homebrewing is still illegal in 
Mississippi.   Now I realize that drinking and judging homebrew does not 
constitute brewing, so it is presumably not illegal to hold the 
competition, but if homebrewing is illegal there, I'm surprised that 
they have a contest.  Just curious.

Thanks.

Bill Velek




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:17:22 -0400
From: "Dube, Terry \(T.R.\)" <tdube at ford.com>
Subject: Container Gardening General

Chris and Jay have been discussing growing hops in 
containers.  Since im lurking HBD in order to grow 
into a HomeBrewer, I thought I'd drop a little 
advice on something I know a little more about: 
Gardening.

One common reason container gardening fails is 
salt built-up.  Using drip-irrigation will 
exacerbate the problem.  Water your containers 
until fluid runs freely from the hole in the bottom.  
Do not collect this fluid (it can contain disease, 
and is high in dissolved nutrients).

Fertilizing is probably unnecessary if you put 
your plants in rich soil.  Consider originally 
ammending your potting-soil liberally with wormcastings 
and/or cured compost.  But, if you must, I 
recommend Liquid Organic fertilizers.  They 
are gentle, responsible and readily available.  
A worm-bin in the home will provide you all 
the runoff (fertilizer-tea) and soil your 
need for amending.  It also diverts a 
valuable resource from the wasteful 
trash collection industry.

When thinking about growing, your goal should 
be good, nutritious soil -- you are adding 
ferts to the soil, not the plant.  The plant 
derives all its nutrients from the soil.  Start 
with a rich and healthy soil and you can grow 
anything.

Heck, I think I might even try growing some.

Best Luck,
Terry Dube.
Windsor, Ontario, Canada.



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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:45:00 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Cleaning Sankey Fermenters.

<Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:27:56 -0700
From: "Cave, Jim" <Cave at psc.org>
Subject: Cleaning Sankey Keg fermenter

 I would like
to use a sankey keg from now on as a fermenter. My thoughts are to
remove the valve assembly and then use a bung with blow off tube in the
existing coupling for the valve assembly.  I checked out the archives
for information on cleaning sankey kegs, and got a couple of ideas, but
has anyone out there been doing this, and what is the best approach to
remove the sticky residue on the sides of the keg, when you can't
actually see it?>

I sometimes ferment in Sankeys.  Antifoam keeps the need for blow off to a
minimum.

Red Devil Lye or Chlorinated TSP work well to clean.  I use a dental mirror
and a Xmas light bulb to see above the top rung.  Sometimes the mirror
steams up.

Dan Listermann





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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:39:25 -0700
From: "Richard S Sloan" <rssloan at household.com>
Subject: RE: Grind & Efficiency

>>Is the crush of my grist a reasonable culprit?  If I run it through their
>>mill twice will this help?  Any other suggestions are appreciated.  Thank
>>you!

I do single infusion mashes and batch sparge myself. I use a Corona Mill at
home so my crush isn't very consistent. I get some powder and some whole
kernels but I usually just plan for the 65% and adjust the recipe
accordingly. Sometimes I crush it small and add rice hulls to help the
sparge, but I always get an average of 65% efficiency.

However, for my last batch, a rye beer, I had picked up some Amalyze Enzyme
at my LHBS. I added approx 1 tsp to my mash and I realized a 14% jump in
efficiency to 79%. This is a recipe I have made a few times so it must have
been the extra enzymes that kicked it up. It is still in primary so I do
not know what effect this has had on attenuation or taste. Time will tell.

Richard Sloan
Brewing in the well hopped city of San Diego, CA




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:50:55 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: Sanke keg fermenter

All -

Jim Cave wonders about cleaning the inside of an unmodified sanke keg as a
fermenter.

Jim, why not just cut the top off to fit a 12" lid?  Then you can just reach
inside and clean it.  Positive pressure during fermentation will keep
nasties out...

Just my .02

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:03:26 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: gornicwm at earthlink.net
Subject: pLambic Newbie

I brewed my first pLambic over the week-end and here's how it
went...in case ANYONE cares.  ;-)

The grist was kept simple:

9# belgian pils
4# flaked Wheat
 .5 Caramunich

2ozs. Saaz (Leaf)
1oz   Hallertaurer (Leaf)

Hops: Aged only a mere two weeks as opposed to the
years stated in traditional Lambics.  Hops were placed in 
a brown paper bag, and slits were cut into the bag so that 
it could vent properly - I don't pretend that this had ANY
effect, but HEY, this is pLambic not Lambic...and my first
to boot.

Yeast:  I used a VERY fresh Wyeast Lambic Blend in a 1 Qt.
starter consisting of:

1 cup DME
1/4 cup raspberry/cranberry fruit juice (100% Juice)
2 Tablespoons 3787 yeast slurry and trub (Served as nutrient).

Starter was prepared 2 weeks prior to pitching.

I step mashed (Much like the recipe on the "BioHazard Lambic Site")

15 minute  at  95 degrees
15 minute  at  115 degrees
15 minute  at  125 degrees
15 minute  at  150 degrees

Brought mash to a boil...ROLLING BOIL for 5 minutes and then sparged
w/ 200 degree water.

At this point the wort smelled so good, I felt guilty about
"infecting" it.  Onward, I went!!!  

I cooled the wort, with an immersion chiller, down to 78 degrees.
The hops were strained from the wort.  I did NOT aerate like I 
usually do.  The wort went into the bucket and the "funky slurry"
was pitched.  I ended up with 6 gallons.

The aroma after a few days, from the airlock, is EXACTLY what
I expected - Sweet initially, then a Horsey, Sweaty, Sour aroma.

- ----

I have had differing opinions as what to do as far as racking. Some
pLambic brewers say leave it on the trub - its good for pLambic.

Still others say Rack it off after 2-3 weeks.

I am taking the road of leaving it ON THE TRUB.  I think this is the
general practice with traditional Belgium Lambics.  Is this correct?

- ----

The plan is to forget about the brew until next Summer and then rack 
over some fruits and forget about it again.

Any opinions???  Note: I do NOT have the Lambic Beer Style book yet, 
but I am looking to get one.

Bill Gornicki
CRAFT Homebrew Club
Michigan


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:53:27 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Sankey Keg fermenter

"Cave, Jim" <Cave at psc.org> plans to ferment in a Sankey and asks

>what is the best approach to remove the sticky residue on the sides 
>of the keg, when you can't
>actually see it?

I've had good luck with soaking them in a mild bleach solution.  I've 
let them soak for >24 hours because I don't use a very strong 
solution.  I suspect it is actually the caustic that does the job, so 
using lye should work just as well without the corrosion concern.  I 
follow up with a bent carboy brush that gets to the sides, then I 
turn it to get the top.

With a carboy, you can see that the kraeusen ring gets soft in a few 
hours and washes away, so I figure it works inside the Sankey, too.

See my instructions on removing a Sankey valve assembly at 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4027.html#4027-14

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:09:14 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Enlightenment

 I'm going to try this one more time.  Pat didn't like my first post and
ripped it out of the queue.  I'll see if the censors accept this one.  Phil
said he could make a no mash beer.  Phil enquiring minds want to know so
please enlighten me. How?  I'm all for saving time.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap,TX


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