---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Pats asking for it ("Graham L Sanders")
  fresh barley (leavitdg)
  RIMS PID ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation ("Martin Brungard")
  re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (Michael Owings)
  RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (homebrewdigest)
  BBBW update (Ken Pendergrass)
  Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation (Michael Owings)
  Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Drying / Adding Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite for Chloramine Removal (homebrewdigest)
  Hop analysis services ("Keith Lemcke")
  Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc..... ("C.D. Pritchard")
  RE: Thermocouples & rims, etc.... ("Ronald La Borde")
  RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation ("Ronald La Borde")
  shank to tower conversion (Dean)


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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:56:50 +1000
From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer at bigpond.com>
Subject: Pats asking for it

G'day All

Well one is finding out they aint as young as they think. One time you could
bounce back from all sorts of youthful activities, from B & S Balls, where
you are basically permanently pissed for three days without sleep, to having
nuptials on the hour every hour. Not any more, as for yet again I have been
out of action from posting due to my duelling with a bus and losing. The
back decided to throw itself out. I now know what a pro goes thru, being
flat out on my back for a week.

But I blame Pat firmly for this latest incapacity. Its bad enough I am
"sleeping with SWMBO",  but Pats determined I "sleep with SWMBO" as well.
You bastard!!!!!!!!!. Its on occasion that SWMBO will actually read the HBD,
and what does she read, every thing from - Put some zip back in your
love life, to - Attract the opposite s*x. Well that was enough for a poor
bloke to be plucked from a computer screen, raced into the bedroom, and
there she left me, flat out with a busted back. I'm sending you a free
passport for entry to North Queensland Pat, with a free pass to enjoy the
wildlife - even the non-human stuff.

You'll keep mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now what gems can I pick thru as I catch up. Paul asks on Liability
insurance for homebrew clubs? This seems to be a problem the world wide.
With everyone wanting to blame some-one else for there own actions, and then
sue them, insurance premiums have gone thru the roof. Our club was forced to
leave our local shop due to doubts the insurance would cover anyone drinking
in the shop. And it gets worse that halls wont cover you either unless you
get alcohol permits.

Our clubs used to run competitions and meetings in our local microbrewery.
We were covered by their policy, but it got too cumbersome, with access to
fridges etc really restricted. But pubs, infact anywhere where alcohol is
served is one solution. Hold the meetings there. We solved our problem by
holding all our meeting at craftbrewers houses. As long as your insurance
cover is up-to-date for the house, you are covered. And many peoples places,
especially here in the tropics, its ideal. Huge outdoor areas, and many like
myself have bars that are the envy of a well stocked pub. And on a barmy
tropical afternoon/night, nothing beats a group of craftbrewers enjoying a
few.

Got to thank Tidmarsh for the Subject: Listen to your yeast. Now I have
heard everything. You got bets I wont give this curry on the radio program.
Now one doesn't what to make of an organism that makes more noise when
alcohol is added, considering they excrete the stuff anyway. I recon the
buggers are getting into party mode, and starting to really "get down" with
the extra booze. Got to love a living creature that gets off on its own
excrement.

Now one was truly shocked Phil Yates has returned. I thought I am pushed him
so far outback, I would see come from the Pacific Ocean to return to
Australia. But on 20 minute mashes Phil is correct "I sometimes think some
brewers prefer to read something in a book, rather than draw their knowledge
from their own brewing experiences. ". I have to agree brewers dont
experiment enough. When you do, you find out a lot of information floating
around out there is at the least "depends on the situation" and not written
in stone as people believe. Myself I am a great experimenter, and I have
found there is a lot out there that people should revisit.

I have done nearly every experiment possible, and many not even thought of.
And I'm still doing it. (got a Grand Cru made from a most unusual method
that is the ducks nuts). From mastering mashes with over 50% wheat flour,
(they said it couldn't be done), to the benefits of home made candy sugar,
(cant make a good triple without it), your brewing only improves across the
board when you experiment. Yes I've done 20 minute mashes. And yes the
results shows it can be done. In fact most HERMS/RIMS people get full
conversion in 20 minutes. I find the finishing gravity finishes a few points
higher thou with a short mash.

Now I'm off to catch up on the digests.

Shout
Graham Sanders

Oh

I have got to thank Pat for at least putting me onto some cheap drugs. Pain
relief for me, and slipping some valium in for SWMBO.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:16:28 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: fresh barley


Thanks to Fred, and Chad (offline) who commented on the fresh barley, and to 
Steve (online) for the instructions for malting.  I have placed a few of 
the "Barleycorns" into water and they are sprouting,so I will go ahead with 
the 'spurment'.  

A remaining question for me is: is there so much protein in this malt that it 
will make a hazy, or in other ways, dammaged batch of beer?  Perhaps a Lambic 
is appropriate to this "raw" aspect of Mother Earth ?

Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell

[ having just secondaried a "Red Rye Pilsner" I am having a hard time waiting 
to taste the final product: 5 lb Moravian Pils, 2 lb Vienna, 1 lb wheat, 27 oz 
corn, 2 lb Cara Amber, 1 lb rye......2 yeasts (in that they were older in 
tubes): German Bock and Czech Bud, Yum!



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 06:22:08 -0800
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: RIMS PID

Mark Nesdoly's questions about PID use in a RIMS can be answered pretty 
succinctly.  Anytime the flow rate through a RIMS slows, the potential for 
overheating wort increases.  At lower flow rates, the heater may bring the 
wort well above the temperature needed to denature enzymes.

When I first created my RIMS, I used only an On/Off switch to control the 
element heating.  It only took a few years of hit or miss mash conversion 
performance for me to recognize that I was overheating my wort.  This was 
frequently the case when the grainbed permeability was lower than usual.  I 
didn't have a thermometer in the outlet leg from my heater chamber in those 
days.

When I installed a thermometer in the outlet leg I was stunned to see how 
quickly the system could produce overheated wort.  I quickly found that 
trying to the manage the wort temperature with an On/Off switch was folly.  
I went ahead and upgraded to PID control.  I have not had a problem with my 
mash conversion and fermentability since.

There was an in-depth discussion on PID and RIMS about a year ago.  Read 
Digests 4424 through 4431 for some pretty good insight.  Some of it is even 
my own ;-)

Don't be cheap.  Get (or make) a PID and thermocouple for a RIMS.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:11:24 -0800
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation

Michael posed a question about the care of carbon filters.

I am a big believer in carbon filter use for brewing water chlorine and 
chloramine removal.  Its quick and easy and doesn't involve adding any other 
chemicals to the water.

The possibility for microbial infection in a carbon filter is very real when 
it is not in a constantly sealed environment.  In the case of my brewing 
practices, the filter system is exposed to infection when I store it.

Microbial infection is not a problem as long as the filtered water is not 
consumed prior to boiling.  In the case of brewing, our water is always 
boiled.  If the user understands that the output from the filter is 
non-potable, then there is no need to be concerned with filter sanitation.  
Don't ever top off a fermenter with un-boiled filtered water...its almost 
sure to be full of critters.

I'm not sure if there is a practicle method of sanitizing a carbon filter 
other than heat.  Chemical sanitizers would likely exhaust the filter's 
adsorptive capacity.

Just drain all the free water from the filter housing and leave the unit 
assembled.  That reduces the filter's contact with the air.  Air contact can 
also allow the filter's capacity to be used up by air-borne contaminants.

Since it can be difficult to know when your filter capacity is exhausted, 
here is a good way to assess the chlorine removal efficiency of your filter. 
  A swimming pool chlorine test kit will show you if chlorine is getting 
past the filter (break-through).  You can check the unfiltered water and 
then the filtered water to show the difference.  A simple chlorine test kit 
is less than $10 and they are available anywhere with pool supplies.

Another thing the understand about carbon filters.  The volume of water that 
the manufacturer says it will treat is usually based on a flow rate of one 
gallon per minute (gpm) or less.  Most hose bibs will easily put out 4 to 5 
gpm.  You need to throttle the flow down to get the best performance from a 
carbon filter.

I have installed an orfice plate in my filter system to limit the flow rate. 
  Since my filter housing is attached to hose fittings, I have found that a 
copper end cap for 1/2" copper piping fits nicely inside the inlet hose, 
next to the filter housing.  Drill a 1/16" to 3/32" hole in the cap to 
provide about a 1 gpm flow rate.  I also had to place a hose clamp around 
the cap to prevent water from leaking around it inside the hose.

All these tips will make a brewer's life a little easier.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:38:43 -0500
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation

homebrewdigest at myxware.com writes:
======================================
I recently purchased GE GXWH04F water filter canister along with the
FXWTC activated carbon paper filter from Home Depot.  I have read a good
amount on similar filtration setups on HBD.  I have a few points I would
like some knowledgeable / experienced readers to help clarify for me.
[snip]

I have a concern about the potential of bacterial growth in the
tubes, fittings, etc through which the filtered water runs through.
[snip]

This brings me to my second concern; the storage of the filter
cartridge when not in use.
[snip]
==========================================
I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter. 
I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then 
disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the 
couple of years I've been doing this.

I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you 
intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't -- 
or boil it first).

After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long 
period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in 
the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps 
spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil 
and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top.

Hope that helps -- m








- -- 
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:46:14 -0400
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
Subject: RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation

mikey at swampgas.com writes in response to my original post:

I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter.
I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then
disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the
couple of years I've been doing this.

I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you
intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't --
or boil it first).

After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long
period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in
the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps
spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil
and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top.

Hope that helps - m

- -------------------
I write in response:

I agree with you that there isn't much concern for bacteria / spores
surviving the boil of the wort.  Ideally I would like to be able to add this
filtered water (not pre-boiled) into my wort if necessary, even though I do
full boils.  I would also like to use it to rinse sanitized equipment
without introducing bacteria.

The main reason why I purchased the filter (which I can still return) is to
filter out chlorine and chloramines, and to be able to use in without
boiling it.  If I have to boil the water (to remove bacteria) even if I use
the filter what is the reason to use the filter since the chlorine and
chloramines would be boiled off anyway?

 - Michael




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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:47:23 -0400
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at comcast.net>
Subject: BBBW update

Where is the barrel stored. Is it possible that the dust is coming from 
a joist above the cask? I'm in the violin luthier business. We see a lot 
of infested instruments. You don't want to contemplate the cure if you 
intend drinking the beer. We put it in a plastic bag with insecticide 
for a month or so. These bugs are after wet wood. I doubt is they would 
affect the quality of the drink unless one tunnels all the way through a 
stave and it leaks out. Seems like nothing to do but pretend it doesn't 
exist.
Ken



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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:26:47 -0500
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation

homebrewdigest at myxware.com wrote:

> mikey at swampgas.com writes in response to my original post:
> 
> I use a similar setup -- a filter canister and activated carbon filter.
> I generally only use mine to filter my brewing water, and then
> disassemble the canister and let the filter air dry. No problems for the
> couple of years I've been doing this.
> 
> I'm not sure why bacteria would be a concern in any case, unless you
> intend to add the water to your beer post-boil. (In which case, don't --
> or boil it first).
> 
> After all, you'll ultimately be boiling your wort for a reasonably long
> period of time. This should kill any bacteria that managed to live in
> the filter (assuming they're beer spoilers to begin with). Perhaps
> spores could survive, but IMHO, concern about spores surviving the boil
> and ultimately infecting your beer are probably a tad over the top.
> 
> Hope that helps - m
> 
> -------------------
> I write in response:
> 
> I agree with you that there isn't much concern for bacteria / spores
> surviving the boil of the wort.  Ideally I would like to be able to add this
> filtered water (not pre-boiled) into my wort if necessary, even though I do
> full boils.  I would also like to use it to rinse sanitized equipment
> without introducing bacteria.

Makes sense -- although if you use idophor at a reasonable levels, it 
really is no rinse stuff. I've pretty much given up rinsing it. Bleach 
is another matter, though.

If you don't have a lot of stuff to rinse a can of cheap beer works 
well, and is sterile. If your tapwater really reeks of chlorine, I 
wouldn't worry about the bacterial load. In fact, I imagine for most 
municipal supplies tapwater is pretty close to sterile anyway. You 
probably don't want to add it to your wort, though.

For post-boil wort dilution, I've had good luck with bottled drinking 
water (unopened, obviously), although once I almost mistakenly added 
"sports water" to a batch.

> 
> The main reason why I purchased the filter (which I can still return) is to
> filter out chlorine and chloramines, and to be able to use in without
> boiling it.  If I have to boil the water (to remove bacteria) even if I use
> the filter what is the reason to use the filter since the chlorine and
> chloramines would be boiled off anyway?

Because boiling allegedly won't rid your water of chloramines with 
anywhere near the same ease as it drives off chlorine -- although this 
may to some extent be a myth. To get rid of chloramines in a large 
volume of water carbon filtration is really a much easier option, not to 
mention significantly more energy efficient. Additionally, someone (Kirk 
Fleming?) posted an HBD article a few years back suggesting that Campden 
tablets (sodium metabisulfite?) can be used for this purpose, but I 
haven't tried it personally.

In any case, if you just have some equipment to rinse, it's a lot less 
hassle to boil a couple of quarts of water than it is to boil, say, 10- 
12 gallons.



- -- 
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:14:21 -0400
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
Subject: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Drying / Adding Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite for Chloramine Removal

mikey at swampgas.com:

>Makes sense -- although if you use idophor at a reasonable levels, it
>really is no rinse stuff. I've pretty much given up rinsing it. Bleach
>is another matter, though.
>
>If you don't have a lot of stuff to rinse a can of cheap beer works
>well, and is sterile. If your tapwater really reeks of chlorine, I
>wouldn't worry about the bacterial load. In fact, I imagine for most
>municipal supplies tapwater is pretty close to sterile anyway. You
>probably don't want to add it to your wort, though.
>
>For post-boil wort dilution, I've had good luck with bottled drinking
>water (unopened, obviously), although once I almost mistakenly added
>"sports water" to a batch.


Rinsing with cheap beer, or sterilized (autoclaved) water would work well,
good point. I called about a water report from my water source and they told
me that they did not have problems with microbiological contamination (so no
bacterial coming in through the water).  They also told me that they
introduced between 1.2 to 1.4 ppm of free-chlorine into the water.  This
leads me to believe that my chloramine levels are not very high based on
some of A.J. de Lange posts a few years back.


>Because boiling allegedly won't rid your water of chloramines with
>anywhere near the same ease as it drives off chlorine -- although this
>may to some extent be a myth. To get rid of chloramines in a large
>volume of water carbon filtration is really a much easier option, not to
>mention significantly more energy efficient. Additionally, someone (Kirk
>Fleming?) posted an HBD article a few years back suggesting that Campden
>tablets (sodium metabisulfite?) can be used for this purpose, but I
>haven't tried it personally.


In HBD #3410 A.J. de Lange writes:

"Boiling drives free chlorine off very quicky. The gas is gone by the
time the water reaches the boil so that it is not necessary to boil it
but rather just bring it to the boil. With chloramine a full hour or
more of boiling was found to be necessary depending on the source of the
chloramine. Thus boiling works with chloramine but again is not very
convenient ... The most convenient methods of chloramine removal are
granulated active carbon and chemical treatment ... Several sulfites will
remove chloramine effectively without adding significant amounts of new ions
to the water. Sodium thiosulfate(photographer's hypo) will work but I
recommend sodium or potassium metabisulfite which is sold in brewing and
winemaking shops as powder and as "Campden Tablets" i.e. it's a readily
available food grade source. I Campden tablet should treat 20 gallons of
water unless the water authority is really loading it up. As a simple test,
if it still smells chlorine-like, there's still un-neutralized chloramine."


>In any case, if you just have some equipment to rinse, it's a lot less
>hassle to boil a couple of quarts of water than it is to boil, say, 10-
>12 gallons.


Does anyone have any knowledge about the differences between granulated
active carbon filters and activated carbon filters.  I know what the
physical difference are, but I do no know anything about effectiveness,
lifespan, bacterial resistance, etc.

mikey at swampgas.com thank you for the great information.  Could you please
describe to me how you dry your filter (temp, container, fans, etc)?  Also
how long does it usually take to dry out the filter, and do you have any
experience with storing it in a sanitizer.

I could also treat the water with potassium or sodium metabisulfite.  Does
anyone have any experience with this, (rates, change in ion distribution,
other affects on finished beer)?

 - Michael





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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:00:14 -0700
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Hop analysis services

Over the last few years, a lot of homebrewers have become "home-based
hop-farmers". If you are about to harvest your Fuggles, Cascades, or Galenas
and you want to know everything about them before you add them to your ales
or lagers, Siebel Institute offers a complete range of hop testing services.
You can see a listing of our hop analysis services on our web site at
http://www.siebelinstitute.com/services/materials.html . If you have any
questions about hop analysis services, you can contact James Murphey in our
Laboratory Services division at jmurphey at northlandlabs.com .



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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:41:14
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Re: of RIMS, thermocouples, accurate readings, etc.....

Mark bemoaned thermocouples and inquired about putting a temperature sensor
IC on the exterior of his RIMS piping and covering with insulation.  A
problem with this is slow response.  It can be improved if thermal paste is
used between the sensor and piping.  

The best bet is to put the sensor in the piping / in the flow.  I use
thermistors but the method will work for ICs if you file them down a bit.
This helps the response time also.  They are mounted using silicone selant
in short lengths of 1/4" copper tubing which in turn are installed in the
piping using 1/4" compression fittings - details at:
chattanooga.net/~cdp/thermis/thermist.htm. 
A photo of one installed in a RIMS: chattanooga.net/~cdp/rimsnew/rexit1.jpg

c.d. pritchard     cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:52:19 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Thermocouples & rims, etc....

<<<<<
From: "Mark Nesdoly" <mnesdoly at ouc.bc.ca>
Subject: Thermocouples & rims, etc....

I guess where I'm going with this (and my reason for posting in the
first
place) is:  why does everyone run a PID controller on their rims
system?
It's overkill.
>>>>>>>

I often wondered the same thing, Mark. The PID's most people use have
all the circuitry for the temperature probe and readout; the control
buttons; the output relay: most importantly, its already built!

So then, for the same reason that most people buy their radios instead
of building them!

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:12:27 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Carbon Water Filtration / Filter Storage and Sanitation

<<<<<<<<
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>

This brings me to my second concern; the storage of the filter
cartridge when not in use.  If the cartridge is left in the water
which was
in the filtering canister could bacteria grow on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My first use of the new filter was as you describe above. About four
months of use, I decided to open it up for a look. The rubber parts
were coated with a whitish slime, and the O' ring had a bad odor when
smelled. Since then, I open, drain, and dry the filter between uses.

<<<<<<<
Drying seems like a
good option, but there will still be some bacterial growth since it
would
take at least a few days (3+) if dried at about 73 degrees F and
slightly
under 50 % relative humidity.  Also I do not know if the filter can
withstand repeated drying. Is it possible that it cannot handle this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder the same things, and would like to hear from others who may
have the answers. I think someone suggested freezing the filter after
it dried.

I can tell you this, my refrigerator manual suggests replacing the
filter after six months of use. This would be for normal household
use, with perhaps daily cycling.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:00:14 -0700
From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net>
Subject: shank to tower conversion

I have two faucets and shanks that I took off a kegerator bestowed to me.

I would like to use the faucets in a home-built tower instead of the shanks
and am looking for some guidance.  On morebeer.com I see three parts -
gooseneck, compression gromet, and brass nut (D1390, D1391, 1392 respectively)
 - that look like they may be just the ticket.  Can I make the conversion with
these parts?

Any other tips?

Thanks,
- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
- --
Quality Web Hosting http://www.3llamas.com
Take your time, take your chances
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul.    -- Invictus --
                                                        -- William E Henley --


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