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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: ATC Refractometer from Northern Brewer ("Charles Boyer")
  That British Caramel Taste ("William Frazier")
  Re: ATC Refractometer from Northern Brewer (Christopher Farley)
  Re: Jeff Renner's priming method (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Tuff-Tank from EC Krause (stencil)
  Re: Rye IPA/Candi sugar (Denny Conn)
  RE:  Tuff Tank (Kevin Brown)
  sankey spear removal (MICAH MILLSPAW)
  Re: wild hops (Ed Westemeier)
  Son of WLP-802, The Movie (Michael Owings)
  The Story of one Brewpub. (Philip J Wilcox)


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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:37:12 -0400
From: "Charles Boyer" <cboyer at ausoleil.org>
Subject: re: ATC Refractometer from Northern Brewer

I use one, and get quite accurate results from mine.

Rather than using a friend's refractometer, I would suggest using a
hydrometer instead, to see if specific gravity reading from it matches the
specific gravity calculated from the Brix reading on your hydrometer.

Thomas Eibner wrote a little web page for conversions here:
http://brew.stderr.net/refractometer.htm

Good luck -- once you get the hang of using a refractometer, your hydrometer
will start gathering dust!

Charles Boyer
http://www.homebrewhelp.com





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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:47:06 -0500
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: That British Caramel Taste

Fred Johnson likes British beers with a caramel flavor.  He says "I have not
been able to reproduce (the flavor) very well in my many attempts at the
style. My beers come out more like the American style except for the
distinctive English hops character."

Fred - If you are able to keg your beer try this out.  Make your typical
British-style ale.  Rack to the keg.  Figure how much sugar you want to add
to carbonate and carmalize this sugar in your kitchen.  Make a syrup out of
the caramel and add this to the keg.  Let the beer carbonate naturally and
see if this will give you the flavor you are after.  My experience is that
you will have some caramel flavor for a while and it will fade as the sugar
is fermented.

Fuller Brewery adds about 5 gallons of caramel syrup to each batch of beer.
They say it's for color but who knows.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA







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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:34:30 -0500
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: ATC Refractometer from Northern Brewer

Rob Dewhirst wrote:
> 
> I have the relatively inexpensive refractometer sold by Northern Brewer.  I 
> am getting consistently LOW brix readings with both wort and grape juice. 
> Samples reading 22-24 brix with friends refractometers read 17-18 with mine.
> 
> I calibrate the device before each "session" with distilled water.  I let 
> the sample and refractometer sit for at least a minute so they are the same 
> temperature.  I look at the sample in good outdoor sunlight.  I have no 
> bubbles on the sample glass.  I still get low readings.
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this with this model?  I made a quick look and 
> could not identify a manufacturer. 

Hand held refractometers are pretty durable, but can be knocked out of
calibration. This can happen during shipping, or if you drop it, etc. Our
refractometer includes a small screwdriver to mechanically calibrate the 
scale.  It may not sufficient to calibrate at zero with distilled 
water; you may want to make up a solution of known gravity.

If you have a good scale, you can put 10 grams of sugar in a large cup.
Add water until you have a total of 100 grams. Completely dissolve the
sugar, and then test this solution at 68 degrees -- it should be 10 brix.
(68 degrees is from memory, check the refractometer documentation to
determine what the "standard" temperature is. It is either 60 or 68
degrees.)

If you don't have a high-quality gram scale, you can use bigger numbers.
1 pound of corn sugar in 1 gallon of water should yield 9 brix. 

After calibrating at a non-zero point, try distilled water again and
make sure that reads zero. If it doesn't, then something is definitely
wrong with the instrument and you should return it for a replacement.
We have sold hundreds of these instruments, and have found very few
(<<1%) defective units. If you suspect the unit is faulty and don't want
to go through the bother of testing it, just ship it back and we can
test it for you.

By the way, I find that refractometers (unlike, say, pH meters) are very
low-maintenance instruments. You shouldn't need to calibrate them often
once they're set, unless you drop them or something...

- -- 
Christopher Farley
www.northernbrewer.com


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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:44:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's priming method

Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net> writes:

>In HBD No. 4599, in reply to a comment by Glynn Crossno that he
>dissolves 3.77 ounces of priming sugar in a quart of water, Jeff Renner
>then commented that:
>
>"... that's way more water than I use, and often I use
>beer because I don't like to dilute the beer."
>
>Jeff, do you boil your priming sugar in the beer, or just add it at room
>temp and stir until it dissolves before putting it in the bottling bucket?
>Also, what proportion of beer to sugar do you use for what size batch?

I don't bottle a lot, but lately I have been brewing with several new 
brewers so I have been.

When bottling my usual 7.75 gallon/30 liter batch, I probably use 
about 1-1/2 cups of beer or water and 5 oz/150 grams of sugar, maybe 
less for less carbonated styles or strong  ones that I expect to keep 
a long time (they tend to ferment some of the slow fermenting sugars 
left from the original mash and become more highly carbonated).  I 
generally heat it with the sugar in the microwave in a 4-cup Pyrex 
measuring cup.  When it gets warm enough for the sugar to dissolve 
easily with a little stirring, I stop heating it.  I suppose that is 
a little hotter than hot water out of the tap.  Maybe 125F/50C?  I 
don't want to cook the beer.

Then I top it up with beer to and add it to the beer as I rack it to 
the priming bucket, making sure to gently but thoroughly mix it.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:29:05 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Tuff-Tank from EC Krause

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:51:28 -0400, 
in Homebrew Digest #4600 (September 07, 2004)
Rob Dewhirst  wrote:

>(PS, if you research this product you will find a thread on
>rec.crafts.brewing about this and a claim that these can be purchased
>through US Plastics.  The product sold through US Plastics is not the
>same.  It has a rubber seal.  The Tuff-Tank does not have any separate
>seal or gasket.)
>
Beg to differ.  Quoting Kraus's page:
>22 GAL TUFF-TANK VESSEL	 	
> 	
>Price	Quantity	Buy Now	
>$73.30 			
>Click Price to view special pricing	
>
>(TT220) Holds 22 gallons. These specially designed tanks come with a 
>patented gliding "Thread & Gasket" lid design.

Basically this is the GammaSeal, an adapter sold to convert standard plastic
buckets into screw-top containers, mated to a very practical rectangular body.
It is variously marketed as GrainVault, VittlesVault, and TuffTank.  In its
80# VittlesVault incarnation, the 22gal TuffTank can be had for $44, far
cheaper than Kraus's offering (cf www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com.) 

FWIW, I have three of the 14gal units and they make superb fermenters.  The
thread-on lid means you can easily replace an airlock with a spigot, and their
shape makes them very handy to fill, empty, and clean.  The major caveat is
that since these employ the snapped-on GammaSeal assembly, there is a channel
running around the interior just below the mouth that has a high potential for
harboring soil and bacteria.  Further, I'm not convinced that this attachment
seam is hermetic (although the screw-on lid certainly is) and that renders the
whole oxygen-permeability question moot.

Gamma Plastics keeps a very low profile on the Web but one who was really
motivated to investigate the airtight/O2permeable question could chat with
them:
Gamma Plastics
4606 Santa Fe St.
San Diego, CA 92109
619-272-5099
800-842-6543
619-272-5659
gamma at fda.net

stencil sends


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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:43:35 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Rye IPA/Candi sugar

Guy, hearing that you loved the Rogue Two Tier Bier is music to my 
ears!  John Maier developed it pretty much directly from my homebrew recipe 
after trying my Rye IPA at Big Brew last year.  He had asked me for the 
recipe there and commented on how it was just the taste he was looking 
for.  I was highly honored when I found a few months later that it would be 
one of their 15th Anniversary beers.  There are some slight differences...I 
use a high proportion of crystal, which is something I got from John, along 
with just a bit of wheat.  John had carawheat on hand, so he used that for 
both of them.  It makes for a little less crystal that I use and that, 
coupled with Rogue's Pacman yeast, yields a little less body and a bit 
sharper taste than my recipe.  But I'm pleased that the overall flavor is 
so true to my recipe.  Having a brewery like Rogue brew one of my recipes 
is about the biggest honor I can think of for me as a homebrewer, and I'm 
extremely grateful to them.  If you'd like to see my original recipe, it's 
at http://hbd.org/cascade/recipes/recipes.html .  Just scroll down the page 
to it.

Graham, I'm grateful for the time you took in responding to my inquiry on 
candi sugar.  However, I must not have phrased my question very well, 
becaus in spite of your information I still don't have an answer!  I have 
looked and looked and still can't find any references to candi sugar being 
either inverted or carmelized.  Maybe it's because my only experience with 
candi sugar is the Brewer's Garden brand,. but I was under the impression 
that Brewer's Garden produced an authentic candi sugar, so I use that as my 
example.  As far as I can find, candi sugar is made by crystallization, not 
cooking.  Also, in tasting medium and dark candi sugars, I don't detect any 
hint of carmel at all...almost as if the sugar is just using a coloring to 
darken it. Maybe there are other candi sugars that I'm not aware of that 
are the basis of your comments?  If so, I'd appreciate any information you 
or anyone else could point me to in this regard.

Thanks for any help,

	--------------->Denny Conn
		     Noti OR



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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 14:17:34 -0400
From: Kevin Brown <kbrown at uvi.edu>
Subject: RE:  Tuff Tank

Rob,

This is a version of what I use for a primary fermenter. I purchased a 
"Vittles Vault" from a local store. They are made by this company 
http://www.gammaplastics.com/ and mine is the Vittles Vault 50. I paid 
25 bucks for mine. The one you are looking at is the  Vittles Vault 80. 
You should be able to pick one up at Petco or Petsmart for about 50 
bucks. I use mine for 10 gallon batches and could probably go to about 
12 gallons. I added an airlock to the center of the lid and located a 
spigot in the corner section as shown in your reference.(The corner has 
a heavier wall than the sides.) You state there is not a seal/gasket, 
well they do come with one, maybe the home brew vendor removed it. The 
o-ring is captive in the lid and seals it against the seat on the 
container. It may be hard see with a casual inspection. It is not always 
that captive and can be remove for cleaning.

I have used mine for about 6 batches so far and it has been working out 
O.K. I don't think it is a long term solution for me but it sure was 
cost effective for a large fermenter. The biggest problem I have 
encountered so far is in cleaning and sanitizing. The problem is it will 
not completely drain by just inverting the container. There is a rather 
large lip that protrudes into the inside forming sort of a well that 
keeps solutions captive in the container. I have a complete cleaning 
regiment for it and will post it if anyone is interested.

Kevin
St.Thomas, VI




"Rob Dewhirst"  wrote:


 > Over the weekend a friend showed me his 22 gallon Tuff-Tank from EC
 > Krause.  I was very impressed with how light and durable it was, and the
 > price seems quite reasonable.
 >
 > I am concerned about oxygen permeability of the plastic, and the amount
 > of light they seem to let through.  Has anyone used one of these long
 > enough to age beer in them or dry hop in them (for which they would be
 > ideal with the large opening)?
 >
 > 
<http://www.eckraus.com/prodinfo.asp?number=TT220&variation=&aitem=3&mitem=7>
 >
 > <http://snipurl.com/8wpx>
 >
 > (PS, if you research this product you will find a thread on
 > rec.crafts.brewing about this and a claim that these can be purchased
 > through US Plastics.  The product sold through US Plastics is not the
 > same.  It has a rubber seal.  The Tuff-Tank does not have any separate
 > seal or gasket.)







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:20:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: MICAH MILLSPAW <mmillspaw at ameritech.net>
Subject: sankey spear removal


> I have a couple of freshly donated kegs that are
>different and I'm at a loss. The brewery gave them
>to me because they don't know how either.

>Keg #1 is a sankey type valve but it screws in
>rather than just
>slide in. I have unscrewed it where it is nice and
>loose. I can raise it up about a half inch but it
>will not come out. I thought
>maybe it had a second set of threads down low but I
>don't seem able to engage them if they exist. I was
>pretty sure I've
>removed screw in valves before without this problem
>but apparently not.

the reason that the probe does not come out easily is
because of a safety catch that prevents it from being
shot out under pressure if someone tries to take apart
the keg.
there is a tool for removing getting it out and
cheaper way (5 cents). The correct way is to use a
wash coupling, which is what a  keg washing machine
uses to couple to sankeys, it has a longer probe that
depresses the catch and allow the probe to come free.

The cheap way to do this is to use a regular sankey
tavern head and a nickel (US). Place the coin on the
ball in the center of the sankey valve and the
carefully place the tavern head over it and twist it
to lock on. Then depress the lever on the head (this
may require some extra effort) this will push the ball
in far enough to depress the catch and release the
probe.

After the probe is removed the safety catch could be
removed if so desired.

micah  


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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:16:23 -0400
From: Ed Westemeier <hopfen at malz.com>
Subject: Re: wild hops


On Sep 6, 2004,  "Sean Harper" <seanjharper at hotmail.com>  wrote:

>  I
> happened to look at the crown of this long-departed tree and see 
> something
> quite interesting. The vines that are quite litterally keeping the 
> dead-wood
> from collaps appered to be hops!
 ...
> . I would also love to identify the type of
> hops growing on my land... Any idea's? All suggestions will be greatly
> appreciated!

The native hops growing in North America since time immemorial are 
generally regarded as belonging to the Clusters variety. You can find 
them in almost any part of the continent north of a latitude line the 
approximately bisects the USA. We have them in numerous places here in 
the southern Ohio area. Of course, the Clusters hops you would buy from 
a hop merchant today are actually a hybrid of traditional European hops 
and the native, wild hops.

Most of these "wild" hops are rather scraggly things compared to 
cultivated varieties, but they were what our foreparents used to brew 
with, and can still be used for that purpose today. They tend to be 
relatively low acid hops with not very desirable flavor 
characteristics. For that reason, if you want to use some in your home 
brewing, I would recommend just throwing a handful in the early boil 
for bittering. You won't raise your calculated IBUs by much, and you'll 
be better off without the flavor contribution, but you'll be able to 
say you did it.

Ed Westemeier
Midwestern hop gardener



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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:26:00 -0500
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: Son of WLP-802, The Movie

(Also posted to rec.crafts.brewing)

One more clip added. This time I've stained the sample with methylene 
blue -- you can see that a couple of cells have taken up the dye. There 
is also an individual in the process of budding.

Run this puppy full screen at work when you're not at your desk. Women 
will love you -- men will fear you. You'll get a raise.

At some point, I'll do a time lapse of cells actually budding. I need to 
stablize the slides with some agar or gelatin, I think. Mebbe next week. 
Suggestions welcome on procedures for doing this.

http://www.swampgas.com/microscopy/yeast/index.html

Have fun -- m
- -- 
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:39:57 -0400
From: Philip J Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: The Story of one Brewpub.

Bill,

Jackson Brewing Co./ Zigs went out because of poor management and 
declining location. They never had great management, but had a good thing 
going the first few years with higher overhead in separate GM, Chef, 
Brewer and Bar Manager positions. The problems started with those 4 jobs 
went to 3 people...

Spencer  hit the nail on the head, Brewpub are restaurants that have a 
brewery on the side. The top three rules in restauranting are Location, 
Location, Location. JBC was surviving its early growing pains but was not 
making much money for the two investors. They started in 95-96 before the 
legislation was completed. They essentially betted they could economically 
do both a small distributing micro and a Brewpub in the same location. 
They built a 15 bbl brewhouse with room enough to add a bottling line if 
they got the right legislation -- they didn't) Hence, they overbuilt and 
overspent and overleveredged financially on capacity they couldn't never 
hope to use...So after the initial success, and a slow decline eventually 
the Managing partner wanted out. The blind partner, having more money and 
time than brains took over. They could have gone up (.2 probability), or 
down (.4) or stayed the same (.4) in my estimate. 

Not wanting to stay the same the new owner got rid of the talented 
executive chef who couldn't manage a staff for beans. Which was a good 
move. And hired 3 managers who claimed to have experience from 
somewhere... Unfortunately Larry, Curly, and Moe couldn't run a restaurant 
any better than they could make Duck Soup. (Being the blind partner he 
didn't know jack about this type of business, [but to an accountant, which 
he was, it at least looked good on paper]) He hired the first people 
through the door, and it really burned him in the end.

Somebody wanted to make a name for themselves and the place was renamed 
for the owner, this was not only unnecessary, but also unwise. They had 
been in business 6 years and had a good reputation. Good Beer, good food, 
poor service and its way the hell outside of town, but right next to a 
good sized lake community. In other words it had a good share of regulars. 
They announced they were closing for 2 months to renovate into a more 
sports themed place and promptly re-opened half a year later. The new 
drywall and carpet looked new, and the 60 inch high definition TVs were 
cool, but the old world Bavarian charm was gone. It was rather blah and 
scantly had any more sports stuff than the previous place. The menu was 
totally new and really sucked. Gone was the famous whitefish dip, the 
salmon sandwich, the fish and chips, the biggest thickest fries in town... 
Gone were the free muscles during happy hour, and the best hand dipped 
beer battered fish sandwich I have ever had... lastly gone was the tasty 
breads and funky multi seed crackers served with the samplers that had 
been their hallmark. -- They threw the baby out with the bathwater. 
Pissed off the locals something fierce. The new bread looked exactly like 
the hamburger buns at the Whitecastle across the street. The food was 
horrid. Directly out of the Cisco catalog. Like a greasy spoon out on the 
county line gone bad. 

But the owner did do something right. He didn't fire the brewer. He gave 
him free reign to do whatever he wanted. And that kept him in business for 
longer than they deserved. The brewer kept but renamed a few of the 
regular beers and rotated 5 different beers. He kept the beer crowd happy. 
Great beers. He dropped to making 7 bbl batches on a 15 bbl system. A 
serious PITA for himself, but worth it to keep the beers fresh.  He 
resurrected the handpump; and dealt with all its problems, rebuilt it, 
junked it, and bought a new one. When business started getting really 
lean. He brought in his 1/2 bbl system and brewed on that to create fresh 
beers for the handpump and later for the regular taps too. Dedicated 
brewers cannot save a beached whale, however. 

Eventually management did bring back some of the favorites from the old 
place, but it was too little too late. They had been losing their traffic 
off the interstate to the big chains on the other side of town. Olive 
Garden, Texas Road House, Cracker-barrel, Hudson Grille were all clustered 
a few exits down and had been picking away the traffic for years. With a 
"soft opening" and no advertising to speak of, sans 2 expensive neon signs 
on the property where one did the same thing at half the cost. And one 
placed 75 feet higher would have allowed both the East bound AND the West 
bound I-94 traffic to see it... but no... one monstrous redundant sign for 
the locals on the street, and one for half of the highway traffic. They 
even reengineered and repaved the entrance and exit to the place around 
the sign. Completely utter waste of capital....  They lost the local 
market, never gained the highway traffic the didn't have in the first 
place, and when the brewer finally left to pursue his own place, they 
quickly lost the beer crowd. They were closed in less than four months.

Could this location make it? Yes, it could. Its been closed almost 2 years 
now or there about... enough for the bad taste of Zigs to go away.  With 
real management, real marketing and real ale, a hardworking owner/manager 
could make it happen. Necessary ingredients: Food to please the locals. 
Beer good enough to attract the beer crowd off the highway. A brewer that 
knows how to brew AND train a staff to serve the beer knowledgeably and 
with a first class smile. A lunch menu/philosophy that will get people out 
of downtown, in for lunch, and back to their office in 1:20 minutes. An 
hour would be better, but that's wishful thinking. Purchase the old name 
if the price is right, if not, remember the locals are not Jackson--but in 
Gillette's Lake. That's the market you have to own. Gillette's Lake Road 
House would do nicely. Places to emulate include The Beach Bar in Clark 
Lake for service and local attention, The Hudson Grille for target 
marketing strategies. The arbor brewing co for knowledgeable staff and 
local owner/operator experience.  It could make it. Add a beach volleyball 
league like Hudson Grille, supplement with a darts and/or pool league for 
the winter...

Or...

One could junk the declining location take the equipment downtown Jackson 
and try to work the New Holland model. File as a micro, distribute custom 
beers around town to help foster a beer culture. Be the only upscale 
downtown hang out after work. Focus on great hors de ovures and beer. 
Double as a coffee house in the morning/afternoon if you have to. Use 
extra space for conference space. If you decide to do a Brewpub the lunch 
crowd will be crucial. Avoid putting brewing/beer in the name and make 
sure to do custom soda's to over come the no beer during lunch for the 
downtown business folks.  Resurrect one of the 1930 local brewery names 
like Henley's or Schele...

This could also be done well...Do I sound like I am trying to convince 
myself? I am. I just need to find someone with a large fortune who is 
willing to have me make a small fortune out of it for them ... ;<)

Phil Wilcox
Graphic Designer
Corporate Communications - Consumers Energy
Parent of three kids five and under...


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---