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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Budvar clone? (Peter Flint)
  RE: Crocs and Beer (Kevin Pratt)
  Re: Electric Brewery ("Jodie Davis")
  Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 - Starters/Cell Counts ("Mike Dixon")
  Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 - Freezing Dried Yeast ("Mike Dixon")
  Re: Attempt#2 Explianing idea on "Energy balance" / sugar residuals ("Dave Burley")
  Alan Meeker, Passive Transport ("Dave Burley")
  yeast physiology (Kurt Thorn)
  Responses to my Stainless Steel parts question (Benjy Edwards)
  Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 -Dry yeast rehydration conditions (Joe Gibbens)
  Centrifugal Pump Operation ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: Electric kettles (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: More on pump orientation (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Electric Brewery ("Pete Calinski")


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:05:23 -0400
From: Peter Flint <peterflint at mindspring.com>
Subject: Budvar clone?

I'd love to have any input on a clone or even an approximation of 
Budvar (or Czechvar, as they call it here in the States).   Obviously, 
I can start with a general bohemian pilsner recipe and tweak it a bit.  
There are tons of Pilsner Urquell references out there too but Budvar 
is distinctly different, and to my taste much better.  I know I'll want 
to tone down the hops a bit and tone up the malt flavors and I have a 
decent idea about how to go about this technically.  However, if anyone 
has any good insights into this goal, I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance,

Peter



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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:20:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Pratt <oh2bontv at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Crocs and Beer

Graham L Sanders was overheard saying:

"On the beer front the Qld Brewing competition is in full
swing. The last
round of judging is this weekend. Now we up North are
rather a radical lot
(or basically cant be told anything - cant really decide),
but I did cause
quite a bit of discussion in Austalia with how we judge
beers. Seems people
are split whether consensus judging is the way to go, or
stick to the "Three
Blind Mice" principle. That for those who dont know,
consensus judging is
where we have a judging panel, (sometimes getting to 9
people), but only one
score and all the judges discuss the beer."

"The other massive debate is our practice of warming beers
to lift hidden
flavours (good and bad) that may be hidden behind big bold
beers. Boy
aren't there polar opinions on this. Is it OK that a brewer
is hiding an
obvious brewing fault behind a big cascade dominated beer.
Does it
matter?????. In a classic example, we had a ripper English
Pale Ale, scoring
near perfect scores. And it would have won. But on warming
it let off a
distinct chessy aroma, that was not evident at serving
temperatures. To me a
minor fault, that had to be marked down."

<snip>

Well, here's my view on these two points....  As far as
warming up big beers, I'm in favor of it.  This is how the
beers taste best when they're good and show flaws when
they're not.  Beer that's too cold just numbs the palate
and that short-circuits the brewer's hard work.

Perhaps the brewer isn't hiding anything at all.  There are
different levels of brewers entering competitions. 
Sometimes it's the competition ace that knows exactly what
they're doing.  Sometimes it is a frustrated brewer with a
bad beer that they just can't figure out.  In each case,
the flaws present need to be noted and given feedback. 
Just don't go into it thinking 'every beer is flawed.'
 
As long as they're all being judged equally unfairly....
:-)
 
On the judging methods:
 
Judging consensus is how it is done within the BJCP.  The
judges independently score the beer, then the scores are
discussed and perhaps adjusted to be within a certain range
(usually 5 to 7 points).  This gives an average or cume
score which decides ranking within a flight.  It is
supposed to give a perception of consistency to the brewer,
too.
 
However, I don't think it makes any statistical difference
whether we judge this way, or as wine judges do.  Wine
judges score and rank a flight usually without discussing
anything.  That's the method I interpret as your "three
blind mice."  The best beers of that round are going to be
the best scored by attentive judges.
 
I prefer that the beers are discussed to give good,
complete feedback to the brewer, but I don't think that
scores need to be within a small range.  Adjusted, sure,
that's up to each judge, but not compromised.



		


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:31:02 -0400
From: "Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>
Subject:  Re: Electric Brewery





> 
> Jodie, I just use a light switch to control each stick and turn it off
and
> on as needed.  However, to keep 6 gallons of wort going at a
> rolling boil, you pretty much have to keep two sticks at full power.
The
> only times I have felt a need to switch one off is during that first 5
> minutes after the boil starts and it threatens to boil over.
> 
> You can see pictures of my sticks and "controller" at
> http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/album12
> 
> Paul Clarke
> Ottawa, ON, Canada
> 
> 

Paul,

Could that be a dimmer light switch then?

Jodie




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:32:46 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 - Starters/Cell Counts

I'll start by saying thanks very much for the FOY opportunity.

Recently I saw a note that a 2L starter made using a "vial" of yeast
containing 30-60 billion cells would grow to 240 billion cells.  Since the
note appeared to be general, the assumption would have to be an aerated
starter when made and then left to sit with no swirling or further aeration.
A four to eight fold growth seems extremely high to me.  Is this
reasonable/achievable with no additional agitation or aeration?

Cheers,
Mike Dixon
Wake Forest, NC



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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:42:18 -0400
From: "Mike Dixon" <mpdixon at ipass.net>
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 - Freezing Dried Yeast

I have always frozen my dried yeasts after purchase and before use.  I have
not noticed any detriment to the final product, but I seem to remember
reading somewhere in that past year or so not to freeze dry yeast, perhaps
even on a package.  Is it acceptable to freeze dry yeast or is there some
detriment to the practice?

Cheers,
Mike Dixon
Wake Forest, NC



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:16:07 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Attempt#2 Explianing idea on "Energy balance" / sugar residuals

/Fredrik,

You said:

> I think a biological
>organism is way too complex for >you to ever be
>able to successfully model it >terms of thermodynamics
>and molecular kinetics alone

Hmmm. You were the one who was trying to explain this fermentation model based 
on "energy". I just commented that your energy approach was not valid from a 
thermodynamics point of view. Despite your comments that you do understand 
thermodynamics, you are not using it in your "energy" modelling discussions.

Why do yeast flocculate? Do you wany a philosophical reason or a physical one?

Flocculation is a fact. The yeast did not somehow reason this out.

SteveA had a looong discussion of this some months ago. Why not check out the 
HBD archives for his point of view?

There are perhaps some evolutionary needs for this or perhaps not. It could be 
a "mistake" or a shortcoming as far as the yeast population's ability to 
consume all potential food sources are concerned.

You need to take floccuation into account in any model of fermentation.  The 
flocculated yeast are still alive just not in the field of action where the 
fermentable wort is.  Stirring flocculated yeast does allow them to come into 
contact with wort with residual fermentable sugars by moving this solution 
past the yeast and the attentuation % rises over the non-stirred one.

In a normal fermentations the carbon dioxide performs the agitation role 
suspending the yeast and bringing new wort past the yeast cell.

Obviously if different strains of yeast flocculate under different conditons, 
then they are only similar and not exacty the same at the molecular level. In 
contrast to your belief.

Basically, I would look at it as though the  forces which separate the yeast 
bodies are no longer effective at keeping them apart.

This may be a surface charge phenomenon or have to do with hydrogen bonding of 
generated alcohol or other components in parallel with the alcohol production.

 Alternatively, as in other flocculation phenomena ( e.g. water clarification) 
, high molecular weight molecules attach themselves to the surface of the 
finely divided body and collect them together and bring them down.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:09:44 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Alan Meeker, Passive Transport

Brewsters:

Alan Meeker,

I think you still misunderstand my point to /Fredrik.. A comprehensive <model> 
has to take into account all pathways of interest throughout the entire 
fermentation. As conditions change, diffferent pathways become important. If 
you don't do this you will have to have a series of approximate models which 
you will have to change to as the fermentation progresses.

Alan said:

>Again, this idea of parallel sugar >utilizatiuon is incorrect, as >confirmed 
>by
>Dr. Fischborn and Dr.Waldrop

Although that is not my point in this discussion with /Fredrik, I  suggest you 
go back and re-read these experts' response.

They said:
"Sugars like glucose
fructose and sucrose do not require their presence to have their transporters 
in the membrane, maltose and maltotriose do."

I have never disagreed with this position. If you go back and re-read 
carefully what I said, you will find my comments to /Fredrik include the 
kinetics of transport phenomenon.

Changing my discussion point now to the area you are talking about whether or 
not parallel sugar consumption occurs:

In the above comments by Fischborn and Waldrop, if the presence of the 
transporters in the membrane are not concentration dependent on the 
transported sugar, then I presume they are always there?  If so, why wouldn't 
the sugars be consumed in parallel, but at a likely different rate from each 
other?

- -----------------

SteveA, just to keep it clear, definition of "Passive Transport" is the same 
as your "facilitated transport" and the transport protein is not an enzyme. As 
far as I know, "Passive Diffusion" is not a term used in this discussion just 
"diffusion". For glucose, diffusion does happen into an erythrocyte, but it is 
about 50,000 times slower than Passive Transport according to Lehninger, etc. 
"Princ. of BioChem...".

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:27:38 -0400
From: Kurt Thorn <Kthorn at CGR.Harvard.edu>
Subject: yeast physiology

Hi all - 

I just wanted to note a few things regarding the recent discussions of yeast
physiology.  From the point of view of trying to model yeast fermentation,
it may be worth drawing on some of the computational studies of yeast
metabolism.  I'm not an expert in this area, but I know a substantial amount
of work has been done, though it almost certainly omits sugars like
maltotriose.  One place to start looking is in this recent paper:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/5/63 

With regards to flocculation, it is under genetic control and I suspect
probably has been selected for by brewers and vintners.  Certainly lab
strains have been selected to be non-flocculant.  What the benefit to wild
yeast of flocculation is, I have no idea.  Ethanol tolerance is under
genetic control as well, but I don't know if any of the genes responsible
have been identified.  (The flocculation genetic network is known and is
pretty simple).

I have no idea if this will help your brewing, but it's fun to know about!

Kurt


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:49:32 -0400
From: Benjy Edwards <rdbedwards at gmail.com>
Subject: Responses to my Stainless Steel parts question

Many thanks to all who responded to my inquiry about stainless steel
fittings for a March pump.  Most of the responses recommended
McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com), and it seems to be a great resource
for brewing-related parts.

However, it appears that nobody McMaster-Carr included) sells the part
I was looking for: a stainless steel fitting with a 1/2" female NPT
end for attaching to the input or output of a March pump, and a hose
barb (either 1/2" or 3/8") on the other end.

My thought now is to get a 1/2" male NPT x 3/8" hose barb fitting, and
adapt it to the pump using a stainless coupling that's female 1/2" NPT
on each end.  Anyone else done this, or have any other
thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks again!

Benjy Edwards
Boathouse Brewery
www.boathousebrewery.com


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:38:17 -0500
From: Joe Gibbens <jgibbens at gmail.com>
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 -Dry yeast rehydration conditions

Interested in giving dry yeast a try and have a rehydration question.

>From the instructions on Danstar's website, it states that distilled
or reverse-osmosis water should not be used.

For those of us with water unsuitable for brewing, any suggestions for
a rehydration water recipe (salts, yeast nutrients) starting with RO
water?   Thanks in advance.

Joe Gibbens
Hopedale, IL


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:05:40 -0800
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Centrifugal Pump Operation


I have noted that there have been many comments on the operation of 
centrifugal pumps in HBD recently.  I can add some information that will 
help brewers with the operation of their centrifugal pumps like March and 
Little Giant.

One idea that has been offered here is the idea of using a dimmer switch to 
adjust the speed and pumping rate of a pump.  As pointed out frequently, 
dimmers definitely should not be used on any motor application.  There is a 
way to control the speed of a motor, but the voltage control offered by a 
dimmer is not the way to go.

Speed control on pumps is sometimes used in pumping applications where the 
head and flow conditions vary greatly. In this case, varying the motor speed 
to better match the conditions can save money if the cost of the controller 
isn't too high.

Industrial speed controllers for AC motors work by varying the frequency of 
the power supply (60 hz in US, 50 hz in other parts of the world).  The 
voltage stays constant while the AC frequency is varied.  The motor speed is 
proportional to the frequency that you feed it.  These units work by 
converting the AC voltage into DC voltage and then back to an adjustable 
frequency AC supply.

Variable fan controllers work through the action of a Triac controller.  The 
old 3-speed fan controllers work by switching in a series of capaciters into 
the circuit, adjusting the power factor.  Either of these controllers work 
with motors, but as I point out later, you don't need to have a controller 
for our centrifugal pumping applications.

Centifugal pumps can be a pain in the *** in that they must be primed in 
order to pump.  Displacement and peristaltic pumps are nice in that they can 
usually prime themselves.  But the very thing that makes centrifugal pumps a 
pain, also makes them a pleasure to operate.

A Centrifugal pump can be throttled all the way to zero flow with no 
ill-effects.  That's correct, you can close the outlet valve all the way and 
the pump will be none the worse for wear.  The only thing the happens is 
that the liquid just spins around in the pump chamber.  The motor even feels 
less load when the valve is closed, so that's not a problem.  You can leave 
the valve closed for hours and the only thing that will happen is the liquid 
in the pump will get hotter.  Of course, you probably wouldn't leave a pump 
running for that long if the valve was closed, but you could.  Even the 
March Pump operators manual states that running the pump with the outlet 
valve closed is OK temporarily.

As a case in point, let me relate my operating procedures that I has to 
institute to avoid a problem with my March pump.  The problem was that the 
impeller shaft would get glazed with sugars during the mash.  When I shut 
off the pump to reset the valves or hoses, the impeller would stick on the 
shaft.  This required a quick disassembly of the pump chamber to clear the 
problem.  The glaze wasn't very hard, but it was enough to keep that little 
motor from restarting.

Now, I just close all the outlet valves and leave the pump running while I 
reconnect the hoses.  This works beautifully.  The glaze never has the 
opportunity to stick up the impeller.  Once the sparge is underway, the 
glaze is undoubtedly dissolved by the lower gravity wort.

What I want everyone to understand from the lengthy discussion above, is 
that throttling a centrifugal pump to any flow, from wide-open to fully 
closed, is perfectly OK.  Its not abusing the pump.  This is in contrast to 
peristaltic and constant displacement pumps that can be damaged if the 
outlet valve is closed to far.

Enjoy the knowledge!

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:15:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electric kettles

Chad mentioned:
> I'm going to natural gas; it's infinitely 
> adjustable and cheaper in the long run.  Plus, 
> I enjoy the sense of satisfaction I get from
> punching holes in walls and playing with galv 
> pipe and especially enjoy conquering all the 
> planning department hurdles enroot to a permit 
> and final inspection.  

In that case, Chad, you might want to know that
Galvanized pipe and Natural Gas do not go together,
and the building inspector will make you do it all
over again in black pipe.  There may be some places
where you can use Gal for gas, but I've not heard of
them.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: More on pump orientation

Reif offered:

> (snippage)If we were to assume that mounting 
> vertically shortens the life by 95%(worst case
> guess), and that the design life is 5 years
> continuous, then we are left with 2190 hours of
> operation.  With a 2 hour mash, this is a
> mash a week for 20 years.  I don't think I would 
> be overly worried about decreasing the pump's 
> life in this application.

Operating the pump vertically can kill it in a very
short time.  It voids the warranty, as well.  The only
thing worse is running it dry.

> Mounting vertically does raise another concern if
> the pump head is on top.  Any leaks will flow down
> onto, and unless it is a sealed motor, into the
> motor.  That could shorten (no pun intended) the
> motor life and yours.

It's actually pretty unusual to have a liquid cause a
short in an induction motor.  Remember, there are no
brushes or commutators, and of course the windings are
insulated.  Besides that, nodody should be running any
electrical equipment while brewing that is not
connected to a GFCI outlet or breaker.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal




	
		


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:54:58 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Electric Brewery

First,  WOW "Paul Clarke" <ptclarke at sympatico.ca>,  great job on the web
page.  I guess I better think about graduating from writing raw html in
notepad.

"Jodie Davis" <JodieDavis at adelphia.net>,

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1%2D4758

is definitely an answer.  It should work but I think you should have at
least two to get a good strong boil.  I even wrap my (7 gal) boil pot with a
few turns of plastic bubble wrap to insulate it and keep in the heat (take
the bubble wrap off when you want to start cooling of course).

Since it is rated at 1000 watts, that means it draws about 8.33 amps
(1000/120).  Two on a typical 15 amp circuit is an overload so you would
need either a 20 amp circuit or two 15 amp circuits.

As Paul says, you can stand there and flip the switch off and on to control
the boil.  Or, as I mention on my web page, use a surface burner controller
from a stove.  I canalized mine from an old stove so I don't know the cost
but I don't think they are too expensive.   Paul's solution for a pilot lamp
is great.

I like the shield on that unit but it could be a problem when using the
heatstick to maintain mash temperature.  The grain would jam in the shield
and burn I'm sure.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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