HOMEBREW Digest #4632 Tue 19 October 2004

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  Re: Responses to my Stainless Steel parts question ("Rob Dewhirst")
  re. Galv pipe and flocculation value ("zuvaruvi")
  March fitting (Bjoern.Thegeby)
  Electric Brewery ("richard")
  Wyeast #2278 (HOMEBRE973)
  Hops for Irish Red ("Christian Rausch")
  Lagering Schedule ("Paul Niebergall")
  South Africa (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Electric Brewery ("Paul Clarke")
  Galvanized pipe and gas ("Mike Sharp")
  Re: Attempt#2 Explianing idea on "Energy balance" / sugar residuals ("Fredrik")
  Short overview over model lineout ("Fredrik")
  Re: Electric Brewery ("Doug Moyer")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:44:29 -0500 From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: Responses to my Stainless Steel parts question > However, it appears that nobody McMaster-Carr included) sells the part > I was looking for: a stainless steel fitting with a 1/2" female NPT > end for attaching to the input or output of a March pump, and a hose > barb (either 1/2" or 3/8") on the other end. > > My thought now is to get a 1/2" male NPT x 3/8" hose barb fitting, and > adapt it to the pump using a stainless coupling that's female 1/2" NPT > on each end. Anyone else done this, or have any other > thoughts/suggestions? The "fitting" you are looking for is indeed two parts. You want two 1/2" SS NPT couplers, and two nylon or polysulfone($) 1/2" NPT->barb adapters, one for each threaded side of the pump housing. Lots of people have done this. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:11:27 -0700 From: "zuvaruvi" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: re. Galv pipe and flocculation value Kent says: >and the building inspector will make you do it all >over again in black pipe. Galv, black, green...it's all that heavy steel stuff (insert Tim Allen grunting ape noises). Yes, black pipe, of course; thank you for saving me from a fate worse than permit payment. Steve asks: >Now if someone would explain the survival value of yeast flocculation to >me, >please. Where's the sense in non-sexual cells calling a 'huddle' at the >start of dormancy? Brewer & vintner's appreciate this property but >couldn't have influenced it (much). Just talking out my wazoo here.. First, we're looking at the wrong media, wort, must.... Show me wort in nature; you're not going to find it. Secondly, weather yeast colonize and sink (sacch), or colonize and float (brett), is largely a function of cell density (specific gravity) and (incidental) ability to entrain co2 (ale vs. lager) and the number of buds in a chain.... (And I realize flocculation and colonization are two different mechanisms but bear with me here). Flocculation merely describes what we observe occurring in an artificial medium, wort. But, regardless of weather it floats or sinks, "sticking together" provides obvious natural benefits with regard to survival: trapped intercellular nutrient, residual moisture, co-existing with non-predatory partners.. And when you take into account these mechanisms are occurring in drops of sap, in grapes that have been penetrated by insects, in apricots that have fallen to the ground and ruptured.colonization is a perfectly sensible strategy. I think flocculation in wort is merely incidental to natural colonization mechanisms; an assertion I can make as long as yeast philosophy seams to be prevailing over yeast physiology.... Now you can argue that after 5000 years of brewing, wort has affected natural selection of yeast sp. I won't argue one way or the other. But having five gallons of 18-22% nutrient/ 7% alcohol wort floating overhead seems a far more hospitable environment than a 0% nutrient/ 8.4% alcohol environment. Is yeast at the bottom of a vat of beer truly dormant? Were they truly dormant, autolysis wouldn't occur. Allowing a certain percentage of slowly metabolized nutrient to remain in solution makes perfect sense with regard to longevity if yeast are never completely dormant while in liquid. I'm a yeast rancher; I've kept about 20 different strains viable under beer for a year or more at a time. True dormancy may only occur in dry environments. Being in the company of true yeast greatness for the next fortnight, I'm sure to be corrected swiftly and surely if my wazoo is too far askew. FWIW, Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:45:18 +0200 From: Bjoern.Thegeby at cec.eu.int Subject: March fitting Benjy asked: "However, it appears that nobody McMaster-Carr included) sells the part I was looking for: a stainless steel fitting with a 1/2" female NPT end for attaching to the input or output of a March pump, and a hose barb (either 1/2" or 3/8") on the other end" How about this at www.morebeer.com "H618B: Stainless- 1/2'' FPT x 1/2'' Barb" Cheers Bjorn Thegeby Rennerian, schmennerian, five miles from Lembeek. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:34:20 +1000 From: "richard" <richard_beattie at optusnet.com.au> Subject: Electric Brewery Many thanks for the posts and personal emails. It has given me a fair bit of information to think about. I've installed a 2200W (240V) kettle element, (pulled out of a cheap kettle bought at a department store for under $10), in a plastic bucket for the HLT. No problems here with scorching as you can't scorch water - so this is fine and working well. I'll post some pics on the web at some stage. Kettle elements are very easy to mount in the plastic buckets as they come ready with a good "bulkhead" fitting. For those in OZ I bought them from Big W. "Belle" brand. (link to the actual element tech info - this is an interesting web site. I never realised that there are counterfeit kettle elements !!???: http://www.strix.com/product/t72_data.htm ) (bucket was polypropylene, rather than HDPE - any thoughts on the use of polypropylene - anyone?? It was a cheap bucket at the local hardware store - but did say "Food Contact Approved" on the label. It was also a bit thin at about 1.9mm - so I bought two and am using one inside the other to beef up the strength. I may take the opportunity of adding a layer of aluminium foil between the two buckets to give a bit of insulation) Now onto the kettle.. The posts and emails sent in were fairly mixed. Some people are using 2200W or 2400W elements with no issues. Some have had dramas and suggest going straight to gas. Reading back through the early posts on this subject, the critical factor seems to be power per surface area of the element - with a "safe" zone proposed to be about 50 - 83 watts / square inch, (refer to Ken Schartz and C.D Pritchard's excellent posts in the archives plus their web sites - many thanks !!). My element is about 5/16 inch diameter and about 20 inches long - so surface area (I think) is 5/16 x 3.1416 (PI) x 20 = say 19 square inches, (maths aint my strong point). At 2200W the power per square inch is 115, which is well over the safety zone. (my maths maybe wrong. I reviewed a few similar equations on the web and could not understand the maths for this. Am I missing something or it this logic correct.??) However - there seems to be a lot of people using similar kettle elements with no issue. Most look pretty similar in terms of surface area. One example is Dave Pickett: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/dpickett/docs/brewery/boiler.htm who actually has two in his kettle. So is it really an issue?? My options at this point: 1/ Install one element in the kettle and run at the full 2200W and see what happens. Maybe I can do a trial run by dissolving some sugar in water and boiling it up. Any scorching or scorched taste should be evident after an hour boil. (????) 2/ Use a diode to bring the voltage back to about 170V - which will roughly halve the wattage of the elements and run them at 1100W. I can then install 2 elements for a total of 2200W. I'm not that good at "electricity" so am not too keen on this sort of tinkering. 3/ Install two elements in series - but this means each element will only run at 550W so I'm halving the power in the kettle. (another quick thought - at only A$10 an element it maybe an idea to install 4 elements (2 x 2 in series) and run each at only 550W - but with 4 you still get 2200W in the kettle. Also has the advantage of being able to switch off one of the circuits thus having an easy way to half power for some control. 4 elements maybe a little crowded - but it also has the advantage of spreading the heat out nicely as well. 4/ See if I can find a cheap kettle with a 1200W element (or thereabouts) and install two of these. 5/ Forget about an element approach for the kettle and buy a couple of SS pots and do a split boil on the stove. When I bought the cheap kettles I noticed that the same department store was selling19 litre thin walled SS pots with a glass lid for A$19. So this maybe an option to get going. Thanks again all for assistance. I'll send through a link when I post some pics. Cheers- Richard. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:59:47 -0400 From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com Subject: Wyeast #2278 I have just made a Pilsener with Wyeast#2278. It is now finishing its ferment at 50 F. before lagering. I was wondering if anyone has tried to use this yeast in an ale fermented around 60 to 70 degrees F.? While the Pilsener is lagering, I was hoping to make a quicker style British ALe--is using this yeast feasible for the task? Thanks Andy from Hillsborough, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:30:54 -0400 From: "Christian Rausch" <brewmaster at rauschbiercompany.com> Subject: Hops for Irish Red Hello everyone. I am planning on brewing this weekend. I want to make an Irish red ale. Thing is I am out of Fuggles. I was going to use Willemette, but was not sure if this hop is the right substitute. Does anyone have any experience with this? I am out of Kent Goldings as well. Maybe I should just say the heck with it and brew a Bock. Ideas welcome. Cheers, Christian Rausch www.rauschbiercompany.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:51:09 -0500 From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> Subject: Lagering Schedule Hello, I bought a temperature controller for my extra fridge and am planning my first lager (Oktoberfest) this weekend. (Figured I would finally take the plunge after 18 years of brewing ales.). Anyway I have been searching the web for a good lagering time/temperature schedule, but everything I have found seems pretty vague. Can anyone out there recommend or point me in the direction of a decent lagering schedule?? BTW - I am using an Oktoberfest Yeast. I cant remember right now if it was Wyeast or White Labs, but it came in a sodapop blank (test tube) and was labeled "Oktoberfest". The manufacture date was July 2004, the starter has been in the fridge for 2 days at 47 to 52 degrees F, and I am seeing some pretty decent activity in the airlock. Roused and fed it some fresh wort this morning. Also I think I got the 47 to 52 degree F range from Noonan (BLB - 1986) , but the label says to brew at like 55 to 60 degrees. Isnt that kind of warm? Should I bump up the starter temp to increase activity? It seems to being doing well were it is at. TIA, Paul Niebergall Stilwell Kansas Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:47:00 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: South Africa Brewers Did you all feel the giant lurch in the Homebrewing Universe coordinates? [0,0] Rennerian shifted precisely 8486 miles to the SE from 4 to 15 Oct. It was a wonderful trip, and the brewers in Johannesburg took me at my word when I asked to be sent home tired. They showed me a wonderful time in their beautiful country. Since arriving home Friday I've been trying to catch up on sleep and email, with little avail. We leave Thursday for a week in California for our daughter's college graduation (Hooray!!!), so it will only get worse, so a complete report will have to wait. Until then, a big thanks to the Wort Hog Brewers of Johannesburg, and especially Ant Hayes and Llew van Rensburg, for their wonderful hospitality. And congratulations to the nine brewers who sat the first BJCP exam to be given outside North America. I'm sure they did their club proud. Cheers Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:12:44 -0400 From: "Paul Clarke" <ptclarke at sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Electric Brewery Pete Calinski - I can't take credit for that web page. The owner's name is Alan McKay ( www.bodensatz.com ). Alan is kind enough to supply space and tools to allow his registered members to post pictures and albums on his site. As for my pilot lamps, if I had been smart enough to originally purchase GFCI units with the lamps built in, I wouldn't have had to buy these little things. I was actually looking for a couple of night lights when I stumbled across them. Jody - While these heating elements are rated at wattages above 1250, you will find that most household dimmer switches are rated at less than half that number. So right off the top, I would say no, don't use one for this job. Dimmer switches are designed to dissipate heat when under load. If you have one in the house, touch it's cover plate after it has been on for several minutes. You may be surprised at how warm it is. I'm afraid that a load of 1250+ watts would cause so much heat to be generated, you would risk at least a melt down if not a fire. It's possible that there are industrial models that can handle much higher loads, but I haven't looked around for any and can't imagine what the price might be. I think you would be better off trying Pete's stove top burner idea, but you may have to do some "mcgyvering" to make it fit the electical box. I'm sure Pete can help you out with that. As I said in my earlier post, I haven't found a need to do this yet. You only really need to hover over it and cycle the switch until after the first boil over threat has passed. After that everything settles down to a nice rolling boil and you don't have to be so dilligent. Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:49:51 -0700 From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> Subject: Galvanized pipe and gas Kent Fletcher correctly points out that galvanized pipe can't be used for natural gas. A very good point--good catch! And I'm sure that's true where Chad lives. In the past I've used PVC coated black pipe for gas installations where corrosion might be a problem. It's rated for gas (uncoated on the inside) and there is a black PVC tape that can be used at the joints and where a pipe wrench messes up the coating. Regards, Mike Sharp Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:42:29 +0200 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Attempt#2 Explianing idea on "Energy balance" / sugar residuals > Hmmm. You were the one who was trying to explain this > fermentation model based on "energy". I just commented > that your energy approach was not valid from a There is alot more to it too. I had the impression that you suggested I start out by listing the kinetics for every single molecule in a cell. Perhaps it's a misunderstanding again. Anyway, I've received some of the initial comments I wanted on this particular part.Thanks Dave. > You need to take floccuation into account in any model of > fermentation. The flocculated yeast are still alive just not in > the field of action where the fermentable wort is. Stirring > flocculated yeast does allow them to come into contact with > wort with residual fermentable sugars by moving this solution > past the yeast and the attentuation % rises over the non-stirred > one. I agree with the effect. My preferred theory is that removing CO2 and gradients reduces the stress, making the cells come *back out of dormancy*. Ate end of fermentation I think there may be some slight circulation here. High flocculation may favour the dormancy in this circulation I had planned to account at least partly for flocculation, I like to think of it as a defence mechanism (sticking together and decrease the surface area to a hostile and toxic environment). It's just the way I like to think of it until I know better, this may be wrong. "Facts" are annoying to me :) I rather have some crazy working hypothesis that I at least can prove wrong. Just makes me feel better than live with a fact and have not explanation. The question is exactly what triggers it, I am leaning toward the same triggering as dormancy?? One way I can realize flocculation as "cause rather than an effect" is that a cell can go dormant, and then go back online later, if conditions fluctuate, due to oscillation in pressure or inhomogen mixtures. At that point it is the rate of transitions from dormancy to active state may be slower if the cells already flocculated alot. So the point where the cells are borderline to favaouring dormancy, maybe a high flocculation tendency may turn this balancing into a quicker ending, by pulling it over the edge. This is what I would expect in a simulation of this. I haven't found much other info on this so far. I am currently assuming that only dormant cell flocculate. Does anyone think this is an incorrect assumption? Any good explanations why an active cell would flocculate? I might see some less compelling, but I wonder? > Basically, I would look at it as though the forces which separate > the yeast bodies are no longer effective at keeping them apart. Sounds like think modelling surface molecule states for triggering will be difficult. Perhaps initiation of dormancy will provide more managable triggering giving the similar output? If one can find the "reason" for the flocculation, that might be easier to model than the acual molecular mechanism that executes it. I realized already that I can not attempt to model everything from the molecular mechanism level. I have to try and model the mechanism that relate to flavour compounds though. That would be complex and probably fairly chaotic. I am trying to make the model as general as possible, but I have to keep the complexity down as much as possible or it will not be practical. /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:44:42 +0200 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Short overview over model lineout (2nd try, do I have email problems?) After discussing details, fwiw, to put it into context here is a short overview of the model (so far) I am working on... I divided the variables, and parameters into three parts (that interact). The point is that I want the parametrization of the wort, yeast strain, and fermentor to be independent. For example, the specific growth rate obviously depends on the wort composition and alot of other things, therefore the growth rate would not be a parameter intrisic to the yeast strain, and a bad chose of parametrization. Most model I have see so far (I've seen a few at least) fail in two ways. First the model only a subset of all interesting variables. Second they are often parametrized in a way that makes little sense. Parameters that depend both on sugar composition, and on the yeast strain, and on ambient conditions. I am using a complete *functional approach*. (I am not considering linking any dynamics to a specific gene, because I am not modelling the actual DNA and transcription stuff anyway, that's just way out of scope. That said these insights can still be useful and provide hints during the process.) I try to model how the fermentation dynamics works, and find a suitable decomposed parametrization. The model is intended for realistic batch fermentations as used by homebrewers like myself and should be able to handle variations in ambient conditions like air pressure and temperature. 1) Yeast This further decomposes the cells into three states - Active - Dormant - Dead I am modelling this as 3 variables. # of active cells # of dormant cells # of dead cells Assumptions - Only Active cells reproduce - Only active cells significantly consume external sugars - Only dormant cells flocculate The transitions between all the states are treated on a statistical basis. This is where some of the energy analogies apply. active <-> dormant active -> dead dormant -> dead All cells are not in the sames state all the time, at some point 5% may be dead, 80% active, 15% dormant etc. Therefor not only wort sugar concentrations is of importance, the health and age of the individuals matter too. And I attempt to solve this my considering transition probabilites which hopefully will account for the distribution. Unhealthy and damaged individuals will go dormant first, while the more healthy ones stay active longer. Therefore I will have to model some yeast variables like UFA, sterols in all 3 states also by carrying over these values during transitions. This is a simplification that I hope will be roughly ok. Furthermore I have assigned variables that may be recognized as these *health related* yeast variables - UFA - Sterols - Glycogen - Trehalose - Cell energy balance ("ATP levels") - Also perhaps Cell redox balance (I've implemented it, but it remains to see what use I will have for it) About the carobhydrate pathways I am still expanding it, but as a starter it would look something like this: http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/pathways.jpg (many parts are missing above, but to come) I fear the nitrogen pathways will be a real pain in the butt :-| so I decided to leave that for a little later. In the "first round" I just consider then basic nitrogen demand, as a single variable "FAN" but this will not do for a final version. I've learnt alot of the basic pathways from the http://www.yeastgenome.org/ which is an excellent site. 2) Wort/Beer - Wort composition, sugars, nutritions (eventually amino acids), O2 and CO2 levels - EtOH, esters, diacetyl, etc The sugar profile and maybe amino acid profile would require a mashing modell. Which would be another project. I started making some lineouts on that I it doesn't look too hairy, at least not worse than the fermentation model. I think some of the hardest parts may be distribution phenomena in the liquification process. Acconting for stirring and crush, rehydration etc, is probably a significant part of modeling the mash. The only existing model I've found relates to simulating starch breakdown some stuff relating to rice. There was a quite interesting algoritm that takes care of the recursive probability evaluations for enzyme targets at various bonds in the starch molecule. If someone wants it perhaps I can looks for the reference. 3) Fermentor/Ambient conditions - This deals with stirring, heat exchange dynamics through the fermentor walls and an ambient temperature (that can vary), headspace pressures vs ambient athmospheric pressure that can also vary. Dyanmics of the CO2 supersaturation, production, and gas flow out of fermentor. Fermentor geometry. One of the things I will be able to measure is CO2 flow. I will correlate the model with actual CO2 flows eventually. So to explain what I aim at. As this is quite complex, and considering I am no biologist nor biochemist I must remember that I do not intend to come up with a full blown model that can model the cell purvate levels to within 1% or the actual ATP levels at any time. Neither do I intend to model the internal cell organells and machinery itself. That is a much harder task, that I leave for someone else to do. All I want is, using this functional appraoch to model the beer fermentation, and the basic yeast responses as relevant for brewing. Using some reasonable simplifications based on insights how yeast are likely to work. Once the model is in place, it will need alot of training the model against data, to tune all parameters, also some of the regulation function might be changed as a result of training. The reason I invent a variable that I relate to ATP for example, is that it "symbolises" the energy state of the cell, kind of like the ATP-ADP-AMP balance. But of course it makes little sense for me to pinpoint these things to an absolute level as I will never measure the ATP level in a cell. For me, it's basically a mathematical exploit, that does have a real counterpart, but the linking is soft, and not hard. The first step is to organize all this into parts of the equations and leave place for future changes. The typical "constants" are implemented as state functions, where the case of an actual constant would be the most trivial case. There are many details yet to work out. But I don't want to start hardcoding details until I've got the right structure in place, and I'm still working on the structure. This is why I haven't posted any equations yet. The math is only a tool and I don't want to post formulas to obscure the discussions of interesting concepts. Once the concept and principles are clear the equations will pop out themselves. But I will be back with more details when I have had time to do more work. /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:31:18 -0400 From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Electric Brewery Jodie asks about using a dimmer switch to control a water heater element. Be careful with this option, as the dimmer switches go up dramatically (exponentially!) in price as you increase power. You'd be better off having two elements operating at less than 10 amps, each with its own dimmer vs. going for a 15 amp or 20 amp dimmer. Of course, then you have more assembly work, but you're using a cheap resistive dimmer vs. an expensive SCR dimmer... Brew on! Return to table of contents
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