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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  FOY-2004 Response-Sources of FAN (free amino nitrogen)? ("Rob Moline")
  Re: Bottles and Labels ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  YEAST ENERGIZER VS YEAST NUTRIENT, RIMSimulation, ("Dave Burley")
  New Malt Information Resource ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
  reg. Tony Brown Bottles and labels (CRESENZI)
  Re: recirculation experiments ("Kevin Morgan")


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:13:38 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: FOY-2004 Response-Sources of FAN (free amino nitrogen)?

	FOY-2004 Response-Sources of FAN (free amino nitrogen)?

Sources of FAN (free amino nitrogen)?
Well, unfortunately I missed the FOY, but perhaps someone can still 
answer these questions about yeast.

First, I assume that commercially produced yeast nutrient probably has 
FAN included in it, probably along with zinc and magnesium, etc.

Second, there has been previous discussion some time ago about adding 
quantities of dried yeast to the boil -- with the really cheap baker's 
yeast (2 pounds or almost a kilo for a bit more than $3.00 U.S.) being a
very economical way to do that.  [I realize there is special yeast made 
with extremely high zinc content, but I'm speaking now of just baker's 
yeast, or perhaps old packets of regular brewer's yeast.]

Questions:
1.  Does boiling dried yeast provide FAN, or just minerals?
2.  Assuming that boiling dried yeast does provide FAN and minerals that
yeast need to grow, how much dried yeast would be the _optimum_ amount 
to add to the boil when making a 5 U.S. Gallon batch (19 liters)?
3.  Besides yeast nutrient, and perhaps dried yeast, is there any other 
source of FAN that is readily available as an adjunct?
Thanks.
Bill Velek

Bill, 
Yeast usually has a protein content of 35-50 % of its dry weight. But
this protein and not free amino nitrogen. FAN is around 1-3 % of the dry
weight. 

If you want to add 60 mg/L FAN ( all malt wort has usually 150 - 220
mg/L FAN) you need to add 2-6 g of dry yeast per liter of wort to your
boil. So for 19 L wort it would be 38-114 g of dry yeast. As side
note... we tried in Weihenstephan to raise the FAN level in wort by
adding yeast to the boil but the finished beer tasted awfull.  

The same for mineral addition by adding dry yeast to the boil. In
regular brewer's yeast you have around 40-60 mg zinc per kg of dry
yeast. To increase the zinc concentration by 0.2 mg/L you have to add
around 5 g dry yeast per liter to the kettle.

Besides comercial yeast nutrients you could buy mono- or di-ammonium
phosphate as a nitrogen source.
Regards
Forbes & Tobias
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:05:41 -0500
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig at cottingham.net>
Subject: Re: Bottles and Labels

On Oct 25, 2004, at 16:39:18, Tony Brown <speleobopper at gmail.com> 
wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can get some twelve or sixteen ounce
> label-less glass bottles for a reasonable price.  I can buy them at
> the local Great Fermentations but they are $9.00 a case.  I think they
> should cost about half that much.

If you're willing to buy in bulk, check the Thomas Register for a 
nearby bottle and glassware supplier. The disadvantage is that you'll 
usually have to buy several hundred dollars worth at a time.

> Otherwise, which beers should I be drinking that have labels that use
> water soluable glue for easy removal (and are re-cappable of course)?

New Belgium, Sam Adams, and Pete's Wicked come to mind immediately, but 
all of them use custom bottles with some kind of identifying mark 
molded in the glass. A lot of the little regional brewers still use 
pry-off bottles; what's available will depend on where you are. As an 
absolute fallback example, I picked up six Dos Equis bottles at a 
recent poker game.

As far as removing labels goes, it's been my experience that a solution 
of household ammonia in tap water will soak off almost every label. For 
the occasional stubborn one, I remove the bulk of it with a paint 
scraper from the hardware store and drop the bottle back in the 
ammonia; with the paper gone, the ammonia can get at the rest of the 
glue easier.

It sounds like a lot of manual labor, but I have discovered that
(a) twelve bottles fit comfortably in a standard 5-gallon bucket, and
(b) if you have access to lots of 5-gallon buckets and a gallon of 
no-name household ammonia, you can do all of the soaking in parallel.

> Then, where should I order my labels from that are economical and have
> water soluable glue?

I've been using self-adhesive mailing labels. A 1" x 2-5/8" label will 
fit four lines of text comfortably, and a typical 5-gallon batch of 
homebrew uses less than two whole sheets of labels. I've recently 
started using 3-1/3" x 4" labels, as they're closer to the size of a 
"normal" label and allow more room for artwork, but they're also more 
expensive.

If you're really serious, refer again to the Thomas Register, or call a 
local print shop. If they can't set you up, they may know someone who 
can.

- --
Craig S. Cottingham
craig at cottingham.net
OpenPGP key available from:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x7977F79C



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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:33:54 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: YEAST ENERGIZER VS YEAST NUTRIENT, RIMSimulation,

Brewsters:

Bill Velek asks what is the difference between a yeast nutrient and a yeast 
energizer.

This distinction has grown up over the past few years mainly in the hobby 
trade as far as I can tell.

A yeast nutrient appears to be a source of nitrogen, esp ammonium phosphate 
providing both nitrogen for amino acid generation and phosphate for various 
energetic requirements. Urea is sometimes included as a source of nitrogen but 
not phosphorous.

A yeast energizer appears to have yeast nutrients like ammonium phosphate but 
also B vitamin sources ( often from dead brewers yeast)  and cell wall 
building blocks from the yeast ghosts ( dead yeast bodies). Occasionally in 
the more sophisticated ones a source of zinc may be included

Yeast energizers are particularly useful to restart  a stuck fermentation as 
it allows yeast populations to increase in a brew or wine which likely has 
been depleted of these components due to an earlier yeast population growth.

Unless you are using a lot of sugar ( and many prepared inexpensive malt 
extracts and grape concentrates are) you will have no need of either a yeast 
nutrient or a yeast energizer under most typical circumstances of normal 
alcohol beers and wines production.

Montrachet yeast in white wines need some form of extra nitrogen to avoid 
hydrogen sulfide formation, even under normal circumstances. It is unusual in 
this requirement. In the absence of sufficient oxygen -based amino acids this 
yeast goes after the sulfur based ones and generates hydrogen sulfide as a 
side product. To prevent this an additional source of nitrogen is suggested.

I would shy away from the urea containing additives as it is not too healthy 
to ingest this.These pelletized ( prilled) forms of urea do not provide a 
uniform physical mixture so they may not be mixed thoroughly at the 
manufacturer and can separate during shipping moreso than the powdered 
ammonium phosphate. You could take in an unwanted amount.
- ---------------------
Josh Meekhof is simulating a RIMS system as  a meams of evaluating if it is 
worth it to him to build a RIMS. He is physically recycling hot wort by hand.

My only caution is to avoid oxygen entrainment in the hot wort during your 
"sprinkling" recycle of the wort. Try introducing the hot wort under the 
grain/wort surface using a tube. Your final design should also include this 
feature.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 



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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: New Malt Information Resource

 Hey Now,

Once again I got bored (too many conference calls lately) and I got even more
tired of opening the DREADED EVIL PDF files... Am I the only person that hates
PDF FILES??? So... I complied a database of many of the available
malts/grains/adjuncts from many of the major maltsters out there... It is not
complete by any means but I will keep plugging away at it.

There are no OGs listed for the entries yet. I will get to these over the next
week or so. I need to go through a metric buttload of malt data first.

Anyway, you can find the malt pages here:

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat > Malt Information

and here:

http://www.brewrats.org > Malt Information

As usual, I will be cleaning up some of the displays over the next couple
weeks...

I hope that you use it and find it usefull in your brewing process.

Suggestions are always welcome.

C'ya!

 -Scott 

=====
"I can't help it... I love being a fart machine"
 - Heather Braker

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:06:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: CRESENZI <cresenzi at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: reg. Tony Brown Bottles and labels

I have never tried to buy bottles out right from a
package store or a redemption center for the cost of
the deposit. Then again I am from Connecticut and here
we have to pay 5 cents extra per bottle which we get
back upon return. Also the place we go to buy beer and
wine we call the package store I know from experience
that not every state does. I was sent to Mail Boxes
Etc. once getting directions in FL. Anyway if you are
going to do what I did thats drink the beer and keep
the bottles, I would go with Long Tail Ale. Its good
beer and the labels just fall off in warm water after
15 seconds. They are not twist offs either. Thats just
what I did. Having said that If you happen to be in
CT. well I keg now so I have a few hundred bottles I
could spare.


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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:23:06 -0400
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: recirculation experiments


 Joshua Meekhof <jmeekhof at gmail.com> Said


>My latest beer brewing fascination has revolved around HERMS and RIMS
>systems. I've read as much as I can digest to this point, and have
>begun experimenting with some of the concepts. Not being ready to
>invest the cash necessary to properly make one of these systems, I
>started manually approximating a RIMS system.
Snip
>What I am attempting to determine is do these systems create a better
>beer? Are beers brewed with this method more consistent? It the cost
>worthwhile for _ME_ if the only advantage that I find is the
>automation?

>Thoughts, comments, and similar experiences are welcomed.

>Josh Meekhof

My reply:

  I use a HERMS system which is NOT automated.  I simply (manually)
turn
the pump on and off to recirc wort thru a heat exchanger in the HLT to
control temperature of the mash.

  This is a simple and inexpensive way to improve your brewing

Kevin.....Brewing and Meading in South Jersey




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