---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: To pump, or not to pump (Fred Johnson)
  German-American Homebrewers? (Jerry Pierro)
  Acid mash ("Dave Burley")
  RE: that whole German thing... ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE: To pump, or not to pump...  counterflow chilling? ("Bridges, Scott")
  Re: German-American Homebrewers? (stencil)
  Re: To pump, or not to pump...  counterflow chilling? (Kent Fletcher)
  Corny fermenter ("Webb, Mike")
  HCCP -- A competition software package ("Alan Folsom")
  Vanilla bean - source? ("Doug Moyer")
  Beer and Food ("Antony Hayes")
  HBD thanks you all... ("Pat Babcock")
  Carbonating in secondary (transfer oxidation?) (Calvin Perilloux)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 06:50:40 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: To pump, or not to pump

Parker asks if it is important to pump out the kettle when using a 
counter flow chiller or if it is OK to use gravity. I'd strongly 
recommend a pump, and even then you need to make sure the pump will get 
the wort out of the kettle quickly.

 From the recent thread regarding the contribution of late hop additions 
to IBUs, you'll notice that if the wort is not chilled rather quickly, 
the wort will continue to isomerize alpha acids and you'll get more 
bitterness from mid and late hop additions. Dan Morey recently provided 
us the math useful in calculating the IBUs contributed during this 
cooling period. Minimizing the time the wort remains hot and in the 
kettle minimizes the effect, of course, and Dan showed us that draining 
a typical 5 gallon batch in 10 minutes compared to immersion chilling 
the wort over a 20-minute period theoretically produces very similar 
IBUs in the end product.  However, if one depends upon gravity to empty 
the kettle, one will significantly increase the integrated value of 
volume*temperature*time and significantly add to the IBU level in the 
beer.

I'm having some difficulty getting the wort pumped out of my kettle, 
and my beers are consistently coming out more bitter than when I used 
an immersion chiller.  (Some of this extra bitterness may be related to 
the cold break that ends up in the fermentor using a counter flow 
chiller--consider this a request for comments from the readership on 
the effect of cold break.) On Saturday, because my kettle drain kept 
plugging with hops, it took me close to an hour (ARGH!!) to drain my 
kettle with a peristaltic pump and counter flow chiller. Undoubtedly, 
this beer will come out more bitter than I had planned.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:42:24 -0500
From: Jerry Pierro <worthawg at comcast.net>
Subject: German-American Homebrewers?

Folks,

Let's hope this isn't inappropriate. If it is, just call me naive...

      I do not know how many German American Homebrewers there are but this 
one is Cherokee-Italian.....
So Much for sterotypes...Maybe I will fire up the ol' "PEACE PIPE" and make 
some Wine next time around!

                                       LOL
                                  WortHawg



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:02:21 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Acid mash

Brewsters:

Keith Busby of UW Madison, WI, asks what did he do wrong when making an acidic 
honey beer as he got no (or reduced)  conversion in the mash tun.

It appears to me you put the acidic sour in at the wrong time. Do not put it 
in the mash, but into the last part of the boil or at some other time.

Likely putting in the sour at the beginning of the mash shifted the pH out of 
the active enzyme range for many of the enzymes. It is also possible you got 
bacterial action in the mash which further increased the acidity.

So next time, mash as usual, boil as usual and then add the sour mash liquid 
at the end. This will help maintain any flavor from the sour and sterilize it 
so you don't get more acid.

I have had some sours which take on a sauerkraut aroma.
If you don't want this flavor/aroma in your beers, then put the sour liquid in 
just before the sparge after mash out so the boiling stage sterilizes and 
purges the flavor agents but manitains the acidity.

Alternatively, ( and my preferred method)  pasteurize your sour at 185F for 5 
minutes and add it to the secondary to get exactly the level of sourness you 
like if the flavor of the sour is OK.

As an aside, I had the pleasure to visit UW in Madison a few weeks ago and 
make demo French Cheeses.

I had a wonderful time and was treated very well by everyone. My visit to 
Monroe,WI , and to Baumgartner's Tavern and Cheese Shop was a lot of fun.  A 
nice big Limburger and onion sandwich on black rye bread and couple of 
Octoberfest beers were a perfect lunch.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:05 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: that whole German thing...

> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:10:22 -0500
> From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
> Subject: German-American Homebrewers?
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Let's hope this isn't inappropriate. If it is, just call me naive...
> 
> Is it just me or is there a large proportion of homebrewers 
> who are of German origin?

Of course, being Canadian, my input on this probably won't count, but...

You just might be onto something there. Take my wife (ummm.... No, I
won't say it)...

She is of German background. Her Dad came over on a boat (or maybe an
airplane, I do know he didn't drive over), liked the place (odd when you
think about it since he ended up in northern Saskatchewan), and ordered
himself a wife from back home to come over and join him.

Now, my wife hates beer. Won't bring it to her lips, grudgingly sniffs
it to evaluate my efforts, and invariably comments, "Yep, smells like
beer". If I tell her that I'm cooking with beer, she will decide up
front that dinner will be inedible and pick at her food the whole meal.

And yet, she does seem inexplicably drawn in some ways to the hobby.
When I crush the grains, she will venture downstairs, give the old
Valley Mill a few ceremonial cranks, and proclaim, "I helped!", and
expect to be listed in the ProMash file as assistant brewer. (Note the
clever use of product placement, shouldn't someone be sending me money
for that)?

On brew day, as I'm making a mess of the kitchen, it is not uncommon for
her to appear, shake her head as if to say, why does he always start
without telling me, and proceed to join in the fun by cleaning up the
pots, counters, sometimes the floor, etc. I mean, you can tell she
really enjoys the hobby by her sighs of happiness.

And yet, she never partakes of the fruits of her labours. So maybe it is
that German heritage, whether she realizes it or not, that is calling
out to her.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:09:05 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: RE: To pump, or not to pump...  counterflow chilling?


Parker writes:

>My buddy and I are constructung a counterflow wort chiller, and I am
concerned
>about the need for a pump?  I have read that a lot of folks just gravity
feed
>through the coil and have no problems.  I'd rather do it this way, as it
saves
>the need for more fittings and equipment, though I own a good magnetically
>coupled pump rated to 200 degrees, so it's in the realm of possibility. 

Parker,
I have done it both ways.  Certainly, gravity works.  You just need to make
sure that you have enough vertical height to give you room to drain from the
bottom of the kettle, down to the chiller, down to the fermenter.  You can
adjust the speed of the wort flow based on the chilling capacity (temp) of
your cooling water.  Also, make sure that you have a good filter to keep hop
particles and break material from the chiller, as I've found that they tend
to slow/clog the wort flow through the chiller.

In practice, however, I find that a pump makes it easier.  First, you don't
have to worry about the height of the kettle or fermenter.  Second, you can
adjust the speed of your wort to be faster if your chilling water is
appreciably colder.  Third, I am less concerned about the chiller clogging.
I'd say if you already have a pump, use it.  You don't really need a bunch
of expensive fittings, just tubing to connect the kettle drain (or siphon)
to the chiller and from the chiller to the fermenter.  YMMV.


Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC
  


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:19:53 -0500
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: German-American Homebrewers?

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:16:12 -0500, AleX 
 wrote in Homebrew Digest #4660 (November 28, 2004):

>------------------------------
>
> [ ... ]
>
>Is it just me or is there a large proportion of homebrewers who are of 
>German origin?
> [ ... ]
>Hey, I really don't want to play on stereotypes! I'm just not sure if 
>my observation is accurate. And I genuinely wonder why such a 
>correlation might exist.

In sociology as in printing, stereotypes are real and can be beneficial if
applied appropriately.  The trick is to make them accurate.  The first step
toward that end is to get data.  You could distribute a *short* questionnaire
to the various clubs, lists, and whatall;  perhaps even better would be to
have an academic connection who could assign it as a student exercise in
demographic database building.  FWIW, here's how I would fill out mine:

Styles most frequently brewed:  Vienna, Weizen, Porter
Mat GF Silesia  (No, not Poland.)
Mat GM  Styria  (No, not Austria)
Pat  GF  Saarland
Pat  GM  Saarland
Languages spoken at home in childhood:  English, some German (but not to me.)
Current brewing clubs and associations:  HBD, category Lurker

My uninformed guess is that the demographics will most likely match the
existing small-city (<500K) general population.  

stencil sends


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:05:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: To pump, or not to pump...  counterflow chilling?

Pacman asked about whether or not he should use his
pump in conjunction with his new CFC.

Pacman, you can go either way.  I have always used my
pump when brewing at home, but we (Maltose
Falcons)siphon through the CFC when brewing at the
LHBS.  We like to keep the monthly demo brews as
simple as possible to help encourage newer brewers. 
Of course, it takes MUCH longer to drain the kettle
this way, but that is not always a bad thing.  In the
warmer months at home I have to throttle the CFC
output (I have a ball valve at the discharge end of
the 3/8" tube) due to the warmer tap water temp.

Another factor on the plus side for using your pump is
that you can start with the chilling water shut off
and just re-circ the wort through the CFC and back
into the kettle for 10 minutes or so to assure that
your wort path is sanitized.




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:20:48 -0800
From: "Webb, Mike" <mike.webb at pse.com>
Subject: Corny fermenter

I tried to post this last week but got rejected due to formatting....  
I went ahead and tried this over the weekend,  but am still 
interested in any feedback.



I'm contemplating using a corny for a fermenter. Does anyone 
have any experience and/or reasons not to do this ?
My plan is to put the cooled wort onto the yeast in a corny. 
Then use a long piece of hose attached to the 'gas in' fitting to a 
bottle of water for a blowoff tube. When the need for this has 
passed, I would curl the hose up vertical and put a standard 
airlock on it. Every day or so I was planning on replacing the 
airlock with the normal CO2 line and tap and push out the yeast 
as it built up, then put back the airlock. If I remove the airlock 
and let it pressureize as it neared completion, I should have 
true cask conditioned beer in a corny. Or just let it finish as 
normal and carbonate. After blowing off a little yeast , it 
shouldn't pour any cloudier than any other other cask beer. 
Seems like there's many advantages to not using carboys -
the danger of glass breakage, another vessel not to clean, 
not having to rack, easier to dry hop, etc.
Any ideas or advice ??
Mike Webb
Full Moon Brewery
Beautiful Sunny (drippy) Downtown Duvall, Washington








Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:23:41 -0500
From: "Alan Folsom" <alan at folsoms.net>
Subject: HCCP -- A competition software package

I'd like to announce the official availability of HCCP, a windows 
software package for organizing and running a homebrew competition.  
HCCP is freeware, though I would appreciate an email from anyone 
who chooses to download and possibly use it, just for my own curiosity.

HCCP has quite a range of features (with more planned for version 2).  
Screenshots, documentation, and a full download are available from 
http://www.folsoms.net/hccp/

I'd like to thank all the beta testers who have helped with this over the
last few months.  In particular, I'd like to thank those recent contests
which were willing to try the beta software 'live' and in the fire of real
competitions:
    	TRUB Open October 23rd
	BONES Bash November 6th
	THIRSTY November 6th
	Foam on the Range November 6th
	Land of the Muddy Waters November 20th
	Great Brews of America (Splitrock PA) November 20th

Cheers,
Al Folsom
- -- 
Alan L. Folsom, Jr.                       alan at folsoms.net
                                    http://www.folsoms.net
PGP Public Key Available on Servers



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:40:29 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Vanilla bean - source?

Anyone know of a good source for purchasing vanilla beans?

Once I get a source, how much should I use in a stout? I assume it will go
in the secondary. (Hopefully, cause the beer's already in the primary.) How
long?

Thanks!

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:06:05 +0200
From: "Antony Hayes" <anthayes at telkomsa.net>
Subject: Beer and Food

I sat drinking an Erdinger Krystal while I ate a plate of Mozambique tiger 
prawns. It wasn't quite right, but I was not sure what would be better. 
Cantillon Gueuze or Berliner Wiesse? Or stick to Sauvignon Blanc?

Any ideas?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg 



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:29:53 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD thanks you all...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

As we near the end of this year, I wanted to express my sincere thanks to our 
Sponsors, those who have donated to ensure the finances of the HBD; as well as 
those who stuck around durng the Great Crash Of 2004.

At the year end, the HBD finances look to be in great shape for 2005. All of 
our sponsors will have their term exptended by one month to make up for the 
loss of exposure during the HBD outage, and our Masthead Sponsorship, B3, will 
be extended an additional month (2 total) due to the hiccups in porting the 
HBD scripts to the new box which precluded the mailing of the HBD when we 
finally got back online. I hope their sponsorship has been as rewarding to 
them as it is to the HBD - and I hope to have their renewals in 2005.

As the balance sheet shows, assuming no mishaps for the year, we should be in 
good shape for 2005. I'm planning no new equipment for 2005 (though, frankly, 
I hadn't planned on any for 2004, either :o), and, unless the cost of T1 
service drops substantially this year (its at around $500/month now - getting 
closer to being affordable! It was up around $1200/month when I got into this 
game...), I plan no changes on that side of the service, either. 

As always, I like to keep two years finances in the HBD's name at all times. 
We're close to that now, but, as always, your continued support would be 
greatly appreciated! Sponsors, look for me to start panhandling in January for 
your renewals :o)



HBD 2004 End Of Year Accounting (*December projected)

2003 Balance Forward:         $ 2684.42

Income:                       $12009.00
     Sponsorship                           $ 8685.00
     Donations                             $ 2877.00
     Commercial Hosting                    $  420.00
     Other Income                          $   27.00

Expenditures:                ($ 7131.23)
     Capital 
              Equipment                   ($ 2437.35)
     Expenses
              Paypal                      ($   76.07)
              ISP                         ($ 2526.06)*
              Domains, Certificates       ($  167.30)
              Upgrades/Subscriptions      ($  199.45)
              Electricity Reimbursement   ($ 1575.00)*

Net Surplus/(Shorfall):       $ 4877.77*

Expected EOY Balance:         $ 7562.19*

Projected 2005 Expenditures: ($ 4388.36)



- --

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:31:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Carbonating in secondary (transfer oxidation?)

>From 19 November, comments on carbonating beer before you
move it from a secondary (or other lagering tank) instead of after:

> if you carbonate during lagering, and then transfer to (another) 
> keg your going to have to deal with the foaming (outgassing of C02) 
> as you transfer your beer & give yourself additional issues with 
> oxidation as a result.

Not really.  If the new keg isn't ice cold, or your transfer 
method causes turbulence from fast-moving liquid, then yes, 
you could have a foam problem.

But assuming your new keg is purged, the foam will be only
be comprised of some very tiny bit of the top gas (CO2) with the
vast majority being gas previously held in the beer, which we 
should assume is CO2, not oxygen.  We should definitely hope 
that there is NOT oxygen foaming out of that beer, or your beer 
would already be oxidised.

Heck, if you haven't purged your new keg, then foaming
might actually be a GOOD thing because it could force oxygen 
out of the keg as you fill it, far better than a "quiet"
transfer that leaves a nice headspace of plain air!

Normally, the only thing you'll have to do after the traansfer
is to re-pressure the new keg and ensure that your beer gets back 
to the original, desired carbonation level again.

Note that commercial beer is moved around all the time 
when carbonated.  Homebrew can be the same, though to keep 
consistent carbonation in your beer, you have to pay attention 
to pressures in the various tanks.  And of course, each transfer 
has (for us homebrewers) the risk of passing through a dirty 
fitting or imperfectly sanitised keg, so we do want to exercise 
*some* restraint.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




Return to table of contents

---