---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Stable Cultures, Brewer's Age (Slightly OT) (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures (Chet Nunan)
  Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference Jan. 14-16 Arlington, Virginia - a la carte ticket prices ("Rick Garvin")
  Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point ("Adam M. Bumpus")
  kegs and magnetic labels (Joe Yoder)
  "Oranging" Rate for Celis Clone (Bob Hall)
  RE: Corny ked labeling/tags, Broken glass and PET carboys ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: Corny ked labeling/tags ("RYAN WILLIS")
  Confusing me.blue staining results / Viability test (help needed) ("Fredrik")
  Fridge magnets on a cornie (Calvin Perilloux)
  Re: Little room for beer... ("Meyer, Aaron D.")
  non-magnetic SS  kegs ("Dave Burley")
  Re: Labelling Kegs (Kent Fletcher)


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:29:21 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Stable Cultures, Brewer's Age (Slightly OT)

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor (at [0,0] ARC) talked about the stability of 
mixed cultures for sourdough. E.g., the starter he gave at a 
conference...

> came from the famous Poilane bakery in Paris about 15 years ago, but, 
> while it started out producing bread very much in the French style, it 
> changed in a few months to a different, stable, character.
Fascinating! Is there a good reference on this "microbiological 
stability?"
Sorry if it's too basic for microbiologists and biochemists here but, 
to this cultural anthropologist, it's just...fascinating!
Is it related to the stability of a single strain of yeast in a given 
brewery? Is it based on which bugs are dependent on which other bugs? 
Are environmental factors very influential? Might this apply to wort 
more than environment, in terms of brewing? Could this be applied to 
pLambic production? If so, does oak soaking help? Are there good 
methods to maintain a stable culture in wort? Is there a map of which 
cultures are stable in which locations?

As for age... I'm 32 and the oldest floppies I remember were 5.25". 
Never used them, only those 3.5" ones. Haven't used any kind of floppy 
since the 1990s... Of course, I do remember the cassette tapes for 
Commodore 64s and ViC 20s (I had the latter).
How does this relate to brewing? Well, think about what an entry-level 
PDA can do with brewing data in comparison with these computers which 
allegedly used 8" floppies... A while ago, brewers couldn't measure 
most of the things we take for granted. Soon, brewers will take for 
granted a lot of things we struggle with today. Chances are, computers 
will play a big part in that. And so will computer networks.

Data *can* be fun!

AleX in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] ApparentRennerianCoordinates



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:57:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures

Jeff, have you ever experimented with souring beers
with these cultures? Lambicus San Franciscus? 


		


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:38:47 -0500
From: "Rick Garvin" <rgarvin at garvin.us>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference Jan. 14-16 Arlington, Virginia - a la carte ticket prices

The Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference is one month away. Due the very large
meeting space we have this time around we are able to physically accommodate
more people. We have held off offering tickets for individual events until
now, despite enormous demand. Most of the Belgian beers we are bring in for
the tastings and banquet are very rare and could not support a large event.
We guarantee everyone has a chance to try every beer by limiting attendance.

We are now offering individual tickets for single days, tastings and the
banquet. The beer list is too long to post; most of the beers will be poured
by their brewers or importers. Check out http://burp.org/events/sob/2005/
for details on tickets and beers.

In 2005 we feature speakers from Belgium, England and all across the US.
 - Tim Webb - author of CAMRA's Good Beer Guide to Belgium & Holland and
LambicLand
 - Jean-Louis Dits - owner and brewer at Brasserie a Vapeur
 - Peter Bouckaert - brewer at New Belgium and former brewer at Rodenbach
 - US brewers of Belgian-style Beer - Rob Tod, Phil Markowski, Bill Madden
and Tomme Arthur
 - Discussions on Belgian Beer styles and homebrewing by Dave Logsden, Chris
White, Phil Markowski, Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymous
 - Full details at http://burp.org/events/sob/2005/schedule.htm

Cheers, Rick

Rick Garvin - rgarvin at garvin.us
Mobile: 703-629-4671 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:40:19 -0600
From: "Adam M. Bumpus" <adam at bump.us>
Subject: Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point

I'm sure that many of you have ordered from B3 in the past and may remember
the rather distinctive packing tape they use to seal their boxes. The tape
is white with red lettering that reads "Beer, Beer and More Beer, This
package contains NO alcohol".

This morning SWMBO attempted to reuse a box from B3 to send a Christmas gift
to my grandmother in Chicago. She was informed by the postal clerk that such
a package could not be accepted because USPS will not ship alcohol.
Apparently, the presence of the word 'Beer' anywhere on the outside of the
package will disqualify it from being sent through the postal service.

Eventually the matter was resolved by placing Priority Mail logo tape over
the offending B3 tape. This naturally converted the contents back into
Christmas gifts, reversing the earlier magic transformation into beer when
they were sealed into a box containing the word beer on the outside.

Adam




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:48:28 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: kegs and magnetic labels

Brewers:
Brian suggests using flexible magnetic labels for kegs.  It is unlikely 
that this would work very well, since most kegs are stainless steel, 
which does not attract magnets.
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:46:57 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at henry-net.com>
Subject: "Oranging" Rate for Celis Clone

I've grown attached to Celis White over the holidays and would like to try 
a clone. I have two 5 gal. recipes. The first, from BYO, calls for 1 oz. of 
bitter orange peel, 1 oz. of sweet orange peel (no indication as to dried 
or fresh for either ... can fresh be used?), and 1 oz. crushed coriander. 
The second recipe, from North American Clone Brews, calls for .25 oz. dried 
bitter orange peel and .25 oz. crushed coriander. This seems like a big 
difference, but as I've never done a Belgium I'm not sure if the difference 
is as distinct as it appears. Any advice as to "oranging," "coriandering," 
or cloning a Celis is appreciated.

Happy Holidays!
Bob Hall
Napoleon, OH




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:29:49 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Corny ked labeling/tags, Broken glass and PET carboys

>From: "Dan Hansen" <dan at hansen.org>
>Subject: Corny ked labeling/tags
>
>Has anyone come up with a system that easily label their
>kegs?

Whooee, we beezz busy makin tags it seems!

I have used some homemade plastic tags permanently tie-wrapped onto
the handle. Then I use the round sticky dots to stick onto the plastic
tags. When I PBW a keg, on goes a sticky dot with PBW written on it.
Sanitize the keg, another dot, etc... When all is done, I just scrape
the dots off and leave the plastic tag tie-wrapped on until the next
cycle.

Hey, a thought just came to me! Well, another thought anyhow. I once
read about garden tags made from beer cans! Yes, cut open a beer can,
cut out a rectangle and fold it upon itself shiny side out, crimp all
the edges over itself, and now you have a nice free (almost) metal
tag. Only problem is how to get a beer can. Anyone on HBD ever have a
beer can? :>))

==================================

>From: Seth Boquet <sboquet at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Broken glass and PET carboys
>
>I'm interested in hearing suggestions for any non-breakable
>inexpensive fermenters.

Cheap? Get any old bucket or plastic container, or even a cardboard
box and put a plastic food grade disposable bag in it. Then you can
gather the top and place the stopper and rubber band or tie all tight
and when fermentation is done, toss it!

===================================

>From: Danny WIlliams <dbwill at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC
>
> The old tubing had collapsed in no less than six
> places. Some as short as 1", and th worst a full 3'
> section was squashed flat.
> What the hell happened?

I have a somewhat different scenario about this. I suspect the tubing
was flattened when first constructed. I think when you coiled the
chiller, the radius was a bit too small and the tubing was severely
flattened at that time. Then, as you used it, some sedimentation
caused the flow to be even more restricted until you finally found it
unusable. Just a guess.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:48:26 +0000
From: "RYAN WILLIS" <montanaredeye2 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Corny ked labeling/tags 

Re: Corny ked labeling/tags

My local beer shop (closed) in Redmond Oregon had some labels which were 
used as a marketing tool. They were a vinyl label 2x 2. You could write on 
them with a pen and then take them off your fermenter and stick them on a 
keg. very reusable. when you got done with the batch (sniffle) you could 
take windex and wipe the pen ink off the label. I would use each label about 
2-3 times before it would lose it stickyness. things a include on the 
label..

Name of Beer and Date brewed
Batch name...
Promash number....
S.G.  1.065 -or whatever
F.G.  1.012  -After kegging
Kegged on...
Awards

My shop closed this last week. I'll call and see if he had an of them left. 
They come in a roll of about 200. If he has any more i write and sell  a 
few.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:16:42 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Confusing me.blue staining results / Viability test (help needed)

Hello everyone,

Maybe someone on here can help me on this. I try my best to 
understand the yeast but having no bio background I sometimes
feel limited.
 
Since I got a microscope a year ago I've tried to always examine 
the yeast in microscope, to get to know my yeasts and to learn.
I've found it extremely useful and has been able to confirm 
things that previsouly was only theory. So far I've found both 
viability testing as per the methyleneblue staining as well as 
glycogen estimating from iodine staining very easy to perform, 
also the results I've see have so far has made sense, and the 
method seem pretty reproducable - until recently(!) when I ran 
into some pretty weird results.

Though I don't know all details I am aware of the distinction 
between ability to reduce methylene blue and the ability to complete 
one initial budding cycle as I would assume that the effort to reduce 
the dye is far less than to complete a budding cycle. Also it has 
been reported in various places that incertain states, viable cells 
fail to metabolise the dye, for example very recently released buds
that are under maturation tend to be stained though alive. I have 
also seen reports that itns't not reliable below 90% etc. This is fair 
enough, but that said, I still haven't found any typical numbers for the 
magnitued of deviations? Qualitative results are of limited value,
I need numbers. What would the worst case deviation 
between methods be? I will do some future tests on this myself 
but so far I haven't gotten around to it and this is bugging me. Also 
it is way too interesting to let pass without reaching at least a likely
explanation.

Before I present the problem and to illustrate the method and show 
one test I've done so far, here is a slurry-in-the-fridge-viability-drop 
test I did during 82 days:

Background/Details ----------------------------------------------  
 The yeast/WY3463 was collected immediately after a 3-4 day 
primary of a 1.064 leffe clone attempt. At this point the viabiltiy 
was about or above 95% as per the mehtylene blue/microscope method. 
Then the sediment, around 1 liter was put into a close PET bottle 
with some headspace, so oxygen access was unavoidable, though most 
of if was flushed by release CO2. 

It was put in my fridge  at  5C. The yeast was not washed or anything. 
I just put the sediement including residual beer into the PET as 
was - this was part of the experiment. It was capped (pressure 
released manually periodically) and on each sampling I, stirred the 
bottle carefully to homogensize the sample well and poured a small 
sample that was further diluted stirred and coloured. So at each 
sampling some O2 was probably let into the bottle, most probably 
affecting the result.

The results is here 
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/graph_82days.jpg

I still have the experiment going becaseu I want to see how it flattens, 
but this is the current dataset. To me this "made sense".
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the point that confused me and is the reason for this post:

I recently opened a 19 month old WY2565 that has been in the 
fridge. In order to not screw up the results. I opened the 50ml 
smack pack without popping the wort bag.

It had 31 ml slurry (24ml wort bag), since I am going to dobulecheck 
my counting method I will omit the cell density data. Beucase it may 
or may not the incorrect. 

(I have found low counts on two wyeast packs, so the make sure it's not
something wrong with my method I have will get a new counter chamber 
next week and I will double check the counts. Due to this I avoid 
writing anything about the cell counts)

Now what shocked me was that viability appeared to be 86%. Now this 
doesn't make any sense at all, right? I have never checked viability 
of a smack pack before, and it's obvious that it would last way better 
than my fridge slurry because it was optimally packaged and no O2 
etc... but 86% after 19 months? I just don't believe it unless someone
can hammer it into my head.

So the question is, why does the method fail? (I emailed wyeast longe time
ago to hear their opinion, but they seem to not care to respond)

Another data point. I made a ~5 million/ml/P  (?estimtate) starter of this 
19 month old yeast, that got going after 2 days. So the yeast is alive, 
which it should be, but 86% is just amazingly good, so good I can't 
believe it.

I have a number of more or less speculative theories that may or many not 
explain this, but I ask for your advice here.

1) First, what is the typica deviation in the straining method? If what 
I see is due to the limitation of the method?

The cells look deeply dormant somehow where the core is shrinked? 
can someone confirm? I suspect the core is staing but not the entire 
cell - why? Is the elongated shape normalt for kolsh strain?

Here are some pics
(activated - with ome wort) I suspect this shows that the core are staine 
on some cells but not on all.
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/activated2565.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/WY25659monhts2002.jpg

I'm sorre for the crappy pics but it's the best I can get with my hobby quality
microscope at this magnification.

Oh, yeas, why the werid seemingly inconsistent budding pattern in the 
pics - someone? this kolsh strain is the weirdest stuff I've seen. What is 
up with this strain? Is this normal? I know it's not what I'm used to see
with other ale strains.

I have studied mostly nottingham, and they make more sense, only by simple
visual inspection you can see that the kolsh is really different. 

( For the issues mentioned above am eventually going to try to correlated 
  this with cfu numbers from plating - on my todo list :-(

  I am also waiting for a "industral standard" hemacytometer I've ordered 
  to arrive, so far I have used a home made procedure, that I do think 
  should work good enough. But because I have repeatadly found low counts in 
  smack packs (out of spec) I am going to get a real cell chamber so I can 
  double check my method. However most counts I've made has made sense.
)

Any insights on yeast morphology on starvation/storage or input on the 
methylene blue method is highly appreciated. Also any input what's up 
with this weird koelsh strain. I have yet no expereince with lager or wine 
strains. Koelsh doesn't seem like a typical ale strain anyway judging from 
what I've seen.

 /Fredrik



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:29:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fridge magnets on a cornie

>From the latest HBD regarding labels on cornie kegs:

> How about using some flexible magnetic material such as this:
> http://www.fridgedoor.com/5x8flexmagsh7.html
> I have a larger piece like this on my refrig [...]

Works great on the fridge.  But I dunno about on a stainless 
steel cornie keg, since magnets don't stick onto 300-series 
stainless steel very well.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:38:12 -0600
From: "Meyer, Aaron D." <Aaron.Meyer at oneok.com>
Subject: Re: Little room for beer...


>> Since keg discussion is in vogue, does the collective
>> have any hints on how to use/chill kegs in an
>> apartment without overtaking the one and only large
>> refrigerator?

>'m a huge fan of cold plates. If you can't drill holes in your fridge
(likely 
>not, right?), drop into your favorite Big Box Store, Salvation Army, or
St. 
>Vincent DePaul (or other thrift store) and find one of those little
cube 
>fridges. Pop a coldplate in, drill any necessary holes, ad faucets and,
voila! 
>A draught system that takes little space. Hell, if you don't mind
keeping it 
>iced, you could even pop a cold plate into a cooler to the same end.

I am in a simmilar situation with a small keggerator that only holds a
single soda keg. I can see using this suggestion if the keg was
pre-chilled and then taken to a party, but does it work for a longer
term serving setup with the keg at room temp?

Will the warm keg last as long as a chilled keg and will it have any off
flavors from continued warm storage?

Do I use a CO2 pressure to hold the carbonation at the room temp: 68F or
the serving temp: 44F?

Does anyone have experience with this type of setup? It would be great
have 3 kegs running off one jockey-boxed fridge... 







Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:16:18 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: non-magnetic SS  kegs

Brewsters:

Brian Milan suggests that a magnetic strip would be a good idea for a keg 
label. I guess so, if you tape it on.

I have to admit I never tested my kegs with a magnet, but check out

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1140

310 and 314 SS are non-magnetic. 304 SS if cold worked a lot can become 
magnetic, but normally isn't. I believe 310 and 314 are used in food grade 
applications and is probably the material of construction of the keg.

The Metallurgist John Palmer can clarify this.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:44:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Labelling Kegs

On the topic of keg labeling, Brian suggested:

> How about using some flexible magnetic material 
> such as this:
> http://www.fridgedoor.com/5x8flexmagsh7.html
> I have a larger piece like this on my refrig that
> we use as a message board with a dry erase marker. >
Works great!

Only problem with that idea, Brian, is that most
Stainless Steel alloys, including those used for kegs,
are non-magnetic, so there's nothing for the sign to
stick to.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



		


Return to table of contents

---