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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  re:Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point (slightly off topic) (Peter Flint)
  Oat beer ("Byron Towles")
  Re: Corny keg labeling/tags (John Bowerman)
  Cloning a Celis White (Randy Ricchi)
  ahh unity.  obbeer: wort reduction for caramel? (Jon Olsen)
  Re: Oh ye of little faith and little room for beer ("Pat Babcock")
  Celis Clone? (Randy Mosher)
  magnets and kegs ("steve lane")
  Re: Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures (Jeff Renner)
  Magnetic Keg Labels (Brian Millan)
  Sanitizers Question (Jon Yusko)
  Plastic cylindroconical ("Christian Layke")
  competition announcement - 10th annual South Shore Brewoff (McNally Geoffrey A NPRI)
  Re: hang tags (Thom Cannell)
  Yeast viability ("Dave Burley")


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:10:13 -0500
From: Peter Flint <peterflint at mindspring.com>
Subject: re:Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point (slightly off topic)

> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:40:19 -0600
> From: "Adam M. Bumpus" <adam at bump.us>
> Subject: Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point
>
> I'm sure that many of you have ordered from B3 in the past and may 
> remember
> the rather distinctive packing tape they use to seal their boxes. The 
> tape
> is white with red lettering that reads "Beer, Beer and More Beer, This
> package contains NO alcohol...

This may be related to an incident I had last year when I tried to 
reuse a box in which I had received a smoked salmon from Alaska.  The 
outside of the box had logos on it from the smokery that originally 
sent it.  I was informed that since the box was covered with 
"advertising", I couldn't send it through the USPS.  After we covered 
the logos with priority mail stickers, no problems.  Seems like beer 
might not be the only problem.  There may be some vague USPS rule that 
is getting enforced in a somewhat haphazard manner.  Things just get 
weirder and weirder there.

Peter



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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:15:05 -0600
From: "Byron Towles" <beer.man at cox.net>
Subject: Oat beer

Has anyone tried making a beer with 50% grist of chopped oats like you can 
find in the grocery store?

http://www.netrition.com/mccanns_oats_page.html

I know there is the possibility of a stuck mash, but was just curious if 
anyone had tried this? The idea struck me when I saw the ad for "Hey, I 
lowered my cholesterol by eating oatmeal". I'm sure most of you know what 
commercials I'm speaking of.

Any suggestions or wisdom appreciated.

Byron Towles 




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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:42:15 -0800
From: John Bowerman <jbowerman at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Corny keg labeling/tags

As luck would have it, a few years ago I stumbled onto a supply of toe 
tags.  Yep, the kind from the morgue.  Hey, they were free. 




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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:02:40 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Cloning a Celis White

Bob Hall is wondering how to clone a Celis White.

We used to get that beer here in Michigan, but haven't been able to for
several years now. An excellent beer and sorely missed.

I've brewed many a wit over the years, and I experimented once with
sweet orange peel (not the grocery store stuff, but the dried stuff
bought through homebrew supply places). In my opinion, you would not
want to use an ounce of that stuff. It would be very bitter (yeah, I
know, it's called "sweet" orange peel). I'm at work so I can't tell you
how much I used, but you get a strong "Grand Marnier" or "Drambuie"
flavor from the sweet orange peel.

Wits generally use the bitter orange peel, not the sweet. If you used
the sweet along with the bitter for complexity, I'd keep it down around
1/8 oz to start out.

If you're really trying to clone a Celis White, you'll need to sour part
of your mash. Celis White has a very noticeable yet balanced lactic
tang.



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 08:32:19 -0600
From: Jon Olsen <burnunit at waste.org>
Subject: ahh unity.  obbeer: wort reduction for caramel?

At least with all our history of squabbles major and minor, hbd readers 
can unite under one banner: stainless kegs aren't magnetic!

I remember thinking to myself- Oh man, that dude is gonna get a full 
inbox!

I'm curious to know how many, if any,  posters, after writing their own 
obligatory "no magnets, we're stainless" email noticed a number of 
"magnet" themed subject lines in the queue and sent the cancel command.

ok. ok. here's a beer question:
I've noticed some recipes online talking about boiling down some of the 
first runnings in order to caramelize and add malty character to a 
brew. Does anyone have experience with this? How far have you pushed 
it?
Did it work, i.e., did you get a maltier profile or more caramel color? 
What's the amount you took and boiled down?  Aside from scorching, are 
there other risks- would pushing too far cause cloying sweetness rather 
than good maltiness/mouthfeel?

I'm planning to brew this weekend and was thinking of trying just such 
a procedure with a medium body amber german lager.

JonO
Minneapolis



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:53:49 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Oh ye of little faith and little room for beer

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"Meyer, Aaron D." <Aaron.Meyer at oneok.com> blasphemes with...

> I am in a simmilar situation with a small keggerator that only holds a
> single soda keg. I can see using this suggestion if the keg was
> pre-chilled and then taken to a party, 

Sure, but if you are pre-chilling, why do you need the cold plate?!

> but does it work for a longer
> term serving setup with the keg at room temp?

Oh ye of little faith! Do you think your janitor would feed you drivel? OF 
COURSE it works for long term serving with the keg at room temp. That is the 
entire point!

> Will the warm keg last as long as a chilled keg and will it have any off
> flavors from continued warm storage?

Yes - good question. Of course you realize that, for the most part, keg 
stability and off-flavor generation are products of your sanitary practices. 
That said, your beer will evolve if left long term on a system; however, this 
is no different than storing the keg long term or, for that matter, storing 
bottled beer long term at room temperature. The body and flavor of a well-
stored beer will continue to change over time, unless pasteurisation or some 
other means is employed to kill the yeast. The neat thing about a system like 
this is you get to experience that evolution over time by sampling the beer.

Warm storage itself imparts no off flavors, short of boiling, that is.

> Do I use a CO2 pressure to hold the carbonation at the room temp: 68F or
> the serving temp: 44F?

This is the kernel of the concept here, and ties well with the recent 
discussion regarding beer mix/beverage gas and partial pressures. Because cold 
plates require a fairly high pressure for dispense, a mix is required to 
prevent overcarbonation. I use a 25/75 nitrogen mix I buy at a local welding 
supply. This gives me 75% CO2 at 32psig which yields me a partial pressure of 
24 psi CO2 at 60'F yields about 2.56 volumes, which is about "middle of the 
road" in terms of carbonation levels - a bit on the high end for most ales, 
but most suitable for lagers. In any case, this level is acceptable to most 
palates.
 
> Does anyone have experience with this type of setup? It would be great
> have 3 kegs running off one jockey-boxed fridge... 

Substantial. I built the beast in the winter of '96. Biggest tips: DO use a 
gas manifold with check valves, and never, never, never use it for root beer.

Thanks to my friend and pack rat Bob Barrett, he article I wrote for the last 
issue of BT is now published in the Brewniversity School of Engineering on the 
HBD website. 

- --
See ya!

Pat "I don't need no steenkin' pre-chillin'!" Babcock in SE MI
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:26:28 +0100
From: Randy Mosher <randymosher at rcn.com>
Subject: Celis Clone?

Bob Hall asks about brewing a knockoff of Celis.

Here's a few thoughts:

The small chunks of dried orange peel don't have all that much aroma and can
add a really unpleasant bitterness. I'm fortunate enough to live near a
Caribbean community and can get fresh sour (Seville or bitter) oranges. The
zest of one orange, peeled with a potato peeler, is about right for 5
gallons. A better grade of sour orange peer maybe found at Persian or other
Middle Eastern markets.

As a substitute, well-scrubbed peel from half a grapefruit plus a whole
sweet orange would be about right. Surprisingly, kumquats taste pretty much
like sour oranges, peelwise. Maybe eight of them, although perhaps there are
engineers lurking who could calculate the surface area.

Be aware that coriander often has a vegetal taste which is very
inappropriate in witbier. The variety sold at (East) Indian markets is a
sweeter, less savory variety.

Pierre Celis himself told me he used chamomile in Celis White. Belgian
brewers are known to give misleading information, but I have tried it with
and without, and I believe it tastes more like Celis with the chamomile.

All the spices go in the kettle for the last few minutes of the boil.
Extractions made with vodka can be added at bottling/kegging to make
adjustments if needed.

A slight sourness is appropriate. I think Celis used a lactic culture of
some kind, but he was very secretive about this aspect. Sour malt, or even a
small amount of lactic acid can give the required tang.

If you're doing an infusion mash, the traditional recipe with 45% raw wheat
may not give you the thick body you're looking for. I recommend 60-70%
malted wheat (don't forget the rice hulls) in this application.

An old Belgian trick is to throw in a small amount of plain old flour in the
boil kettle to create the traditional starch haze. A tablespoon ought to be
about right.


- --Randy Mosher

http://radicalbrewing.com



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:41:23 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa at hotmail.com>
Subject: magnets and kegs

All this talk of magnets not working on kegs is phooeeeyy.  There is so much 
iron in the Kansas City water that the magnets stick just fine to a full 
keg.  Of course, as the iron laiden beer is consumed the magnet is moved 
down the side of the keg as it chases the level in the keg.  It doubles as a 
volume monitoring system.
Great idea HBD readers!  Keep up the good work.
S.




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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:16:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures

Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com> asks

>Jeff, have you ever experimented with souring beers
>with these cultures? Lambicus San Franciscus?

The "L" is for Lactobacillus, not Lambicus.  There are many, many 
lactobacilli.  The SF bug used to be called L. sanfrancisco but I see 
the specific epithet sanfranciscensis now.  I assume it's the same 
thing.  I wonder how/why the name got changed or if I and many others 
had it wrong.  Normally they use the first name given unless there is 
some error.  I suppose sanfrancisco isn't proper Latin.

Anyway, I haven't tried souring beer with it.  My "Solera Ale" 
(search HBD for past posts and my Zymurgy article a few years ago) 
developed a very nice, mild sourness in the keg on its own, and then 
with time, it got more sour, but never unpleasantly so.  I just 
topped it up two days ago with a three month old 1.080 OG old ale. 
There was about 1/2 gallon of sour ale left in the keg/solera, which 
was established in 1993 or so.  It hasn't started to referment yet. 
I had last topped it three years ago or so, so the critters are 
likely pretty sleepy.  So at this point it has just a nice subtle 
fruity tartness.  When it restarts, I'll have to vent it every day 
until it consumes the sugars that the ale yeast left.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:57:24 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Brian Millan <ernurse at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Magnetic Keg Labels

Hmmm

Guess I never thought about the *stainless* steel aspect!
Oh well, shows you what I know. I've only ever made a few 
batches of beer which I bottled, never worked
with kegs. Thanks for setting me straight.

Happy holidays everyone.

Brian





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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:30:48 -0500
From: Jon Yusko <jyusko at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Sanitizers Question

Hey all:

Can that OxyClean powder be used as a sanitizer?  I was wondering 
because it rinses
much more easily than using, say, bleach in a carboy.  Isn't this some 
type of Hydro Peroxide derivative --
which I am always using it as an anticeptic for cuts, etc.
Just wondering.

Thanks - Jon



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:27:40 -0500
From: "Christian Layke" <clayke at wri.org>
Subject: Plastic cylindroconical

Ok, for the second time in a year I've lost 6 gallons of promising brew
due to bust carboys (luckily, I brewed 15 gallons of this one).  So far
I've avoided bodily harm but not emotional.  In short, I'm iching for a
CC fermenter like never before.  But, I've got one wee one and another
on the way, and those rare spare dollars really ought to be flowing into
college funds rather than Dad's hobby.  So, does anyone have any
experience using these plastic Inductor tanks? 
http://www.denhartogindustries.com/inductor.asp#Products.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=
usplastic&category%5Fname=20726&product%5Fid=3863 (paste link back
together)
Seems like a stainless 2 inch ball valve for the dump port and a zymico
racking assembly ought to turn this into an acceptable solution.  The
rep actually has heard of people using these and knew enough to
recommend against using it for wine because they are slightly permeable.
 So I guess long-term lagering is out (unless I can saturate the
environment inside my fermenting fridge with CO2).

Thoughts, anyone?

Christian


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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:03:32 -0500
From: McNally Geoffrey A NPRI <McNallyGA at Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil>
Subject: competition announcement - 10th annual South Shore Brewoff

  This is an early announcement that the 10th annual South Shore Brewoff
will be held on Saturday, March 26th, 2005 at the Rock Bottom Restaurant
and Brewery in Braintree, MA.

  Complete entry and judging information will be available from the
South Shore Brew Club website (http://www.southshorebrewclub.org) after
the beginning of the new year.

                                               Geoffrey McNally
                                               Competition Organizer
                                               Tiverton, RI


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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:07:46 -0500
From: Thom Cannell <t_cannell at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: hang tags

Uhhh, Pat, you can drive up to Lansing and swap some of those "old" 8" disks
for some Hollerith (sp, its been decades) cards. They have neat little holes
punched already. You can even select which hole makes a dangle-angle that
suits each and every keg, bottle, or carboy. I also may have some 1/2", 1"
and 2" mag tape that you could use to secure said cards.







I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions.

Thom Cannell

T_Cannell near compuserve.com
CannellAndAssociates near comcast.net



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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:11:18 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Yeast viability

Brewsters:

/Fredrik is looking into the viability of yeast cells.

First, nice pics and a good approach, as your plots make sense.

I suspect the (W)yeast in the packet are stored in distilled water in which 
they go dormant and have a much longer viability.

A valuable addition to your experiment would be to take the same yeast strain 
and separate it into two sections. One in which you keep some under beer as 
you did and another in which you wash it and keep it under distilled water.

I predict the yeast under distilled water will have a much longer viability. A 
comparison of true lager and ale yeast would be interesting


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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