---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Grain & Hop Storage (homebrewdigest)
  Re: Magnets and Stainless / Fit of Creativity (John Palmer)
  Re: PreChilling ("Kevin Morgan")
  Carmelizing wort (David Harsh)
  Taxonomy changes ("Dave Burley")
  Toe tag keg labels ("Kevin Kutskill")
  thermostat question ("quinn meneely")
  Plastic cylindroconical ("Joe Aistrup")
  Counterflow Chiller (CRESENZI)
  Liquid Yeast Problems (Tony Brown)
  Celis White (Leo Vitt)
  Celis White ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  AFC BOS Beer on Tap at Oggi's ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: Plastic cylindroconical ("Kevin Morgan")
  Carboy carrier (Nate & Brenda Wahl)


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:32:22 -0500
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
Subject: Grain & Hop Storage

HBD Readers/Brewers,
	I have recently purchased a Barley Crusher grain mill.  Although I
do not have it yet, I am planning on purchasing a 55# sack of grain.  I
wanted to know how everyone stores their grain.  I am thinking of using
buckets (with lids) and I'd like to know what others think about buckets as
well as what they think about these ideas/questions.  Also I do not have
room in a fridge or freezer to store grain (as of right now).
1. Are food-grade ones necessary?
2. Does any one put them in bags (zip-lock or other) which are stored in
bucket?  
3. Should I used food-grade bags and just put them in any bucket?
4. How much (approx. avg) can a regular 5 gal. Bucket hold (in terms of
lbs.)?
5. What is an ideal temperature and / or humidity range for storage?
6. How long will the grain last with minimal loss of quality?

	I also would like to know what different ways everyone stores their
hops.  I do not have a CO2 tank to purge what I store my hops in (yet).
Here are some questions I was hoping fellow brewers might have answers to:
1. Freeze or refrigerate, which is preferable (cons / pros)?
2. Zip-lock bags, or others (push all the air out until I have CO2)?

I'd like to thank everyone in advance because I know I will get the answers
I'm looking for on HBD!


Happy Holidays and Brewing,

Mike




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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 23:20:57 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: Magnets and Stainless / Fit of Creativity

Hi All,
Just catching up, forgot to reply yesterday.
Beer kegs are made of 304L stainless steel, and they are fairly 
magnetic due to the high degree of cold work in the drawing and forming 
operation. That's what gives 300 series its strength is the cold work. 
If the beer keg were annealed, you could dent it with your fist like an 
old Datsun.
The 304L facilitates the welded construction.

***
Need To Brew

Oh the weather outside is frightful,
but for brewing it's near delightful,
So before the day is through,
Need to brew, need to brew, need to brew....

Well the family said that they'd go shopping
And I'd saved some yeast by cropping
But the kids can't find their shoes
Need to brew, need to brew, need to brew....

When they finally leave the house
I can start my boil on the stove
I've been dreaming of oatmeal stout
So I'll need a mini-mash too...

The wort is nearly boiling
When I hear the garage door opening
Couldn't they wait until I'm through?
Need to brew, need to brew, need to brew....


John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:22:57 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: PreChilling

Pat wrote:

>>Snip
>Substantial. I built the beast in the winter of '96. Biggest tips: DO
use a
>gas manifold with check valves, and never, never, never use it for
root beer.

>Thanks to my friend and pack rat Bob Barrett, he article I wrote for
the last
>issue of BT is now published in the Brewniversity School of
Engineering on the
>HBD website.

 - --
>See ya!

>Pat "I don't need no steenkin' pre-chillin'!" Babcock in SE MI
>Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
>http://hbd.org
>pbabcock at hbd.org

Ok Pat, I'll bite.  Why not use this for rootbeer??

Kevin, Brewing and Meading in South Jersey (USA)




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:35:35 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Carmelizing wort

Jon Olsen <burnunit at waste.org> asks about wort reduction for caramel?
> Did it work, i.e., did you get a maltier profile or more caramel color?
> What's the amount you took and boiled down?  Aside from scorching, are
> there other risks- would pushing too far cause cloying sweetness rather
> than good maltiness/mouthfeel?

I've done this many times, but not for a german lager.  (as a side 
note, if I want more malt in a German style than I can get from a grain 
bill, I decoct, but there are few styles that I do it for.  I also know 
that many question the need or results of a decoction and that's a 
whole other thread)

For my strong scotch ale I take the first gallon of runnings and reduce 
it to about a quart.  This does require constant stirring and scraping 
of the pan surface - I recommend the high temperature spatulas for this 
purpose.  As you reach the end of the process you need to turn the heat 
down very low to avoid scorching.

I've never ended up with cloying sweetness - the last batch I made took 
its category at Beer and Sweat 2003, and I was told it had its 
advocates during the BOS round.

As a side note, this particular brew is OG 1.100, 99% pale malt, 1% 
with Styrian Goldings to ~25 IBU, bittering only.  The last batch of 
this I made I split between Wyeasts Scottish Ale yeast and WhiteLabs 
Dry English Ale yeast and the Dry English Ale yeast brew was much 
better!  The scottish produced a beer that was so clean it was just 
bland by comparison.

I can't see doing this for a german style - the only reason I do it for 
the Scotch ale is that Noonan describes a six hour boil at Traquair and 
that's what I'm trying to approximate (ok, a little large version of 
Traquair)

Dave Harsh						Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:56:24 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Taxonomy changes

Brewsters:

Jeff Renner has called to question the name changes in identifying organisms 
in sourdough bread.

These taxonomic changes have been the bane of real understanding and 
communication, in my opinion, in contrast to the position these paperclip 
counting taxonomists take of "clarifying" organisms.

What I want to know is who participates in these name changes anyway and why 
don't I get a vote? I can imagine a taxonomic convention where the 
participants are standing around after a presentation by one of their 
colleagues "Did you hear what term he used to descibe that yeast ?  That was 
LAST year's term." Ha ha ha  and lots of negative head shaking. Hmmmph.

This problem exists throughout microbiology as well as in beer brewing and in 
baking breads produced by sourdough or "naturally" fermented cultures. In 
cheese making, where name changes are legend, these changes are often ignored 
by the industry in the desire for communication with users of these cultures. 
Especially, if you are a supplier of these cultures to the industry. "Oh we 
don't sell that culture any more, NOW we sell  XYZ, which is the same 
culture". Right!. How long willl you stay in business doing that?

A simple case is the name of the Lactobacillus Sanfrancisc(is it "o" or 
"ensis")? The authors of classical US patents, Leo Kline and Takahashi 
Sugihara ( 3,734,743  and 3,891,773) named it L. Sanfrancisco. These patents 
were isssued in 1973 and 1975, resp. I still have copies of the original 
patents and these were of great help to me and others in understanding 
sourdough baking ( yes, I have been baking Sourdough Bread longer than that). 
These authors discovered that a sourdough culture consisting of two disparate 
organisms living in symbiotic support was the cause of  the stable 
SanFrancisco sourdough cultures.  They named the acid generating portion 
"Lactobacillus Sanfrancisco" and in my opinion it should stay that way.

Thinking I could settle the issue as to the correct term I decidied to check 
the available printed literature on sourdough and recent uses.I have seen this 
term "L. sanfrancisco" used in hard print under most circumtances and most 
recently by Peter Reinhart (Brother Juniper) .  But Daniel Wing, also a 
fermented bread author of great respect, uses "L. sanfranciscensis".  Wing is 
an MD and a microbiologist.  So I tended to go with him intellectually but not 
emotionally. Interestingly, Reinhart's book (Crust and Crumb)  is copyrighted 
1998 and Wing/Scott ( Bread Builders)  book 1999.

SO our search is not done:

From

http://et.springer-ny.com:8080/prokPUB/chaphtm/070/COMPLETE.htm
"Lactobacillus and Carnobacterium

 WALTER P. HAMMES
 NORBERT WEISS
 WILHELM HOLZAPFEL
Lactobacilli are characterized as Gram-positive, nonsporeforming rods, are 
catalase-negative when growing without blood, usually nonmotile, do not 
usually reduce nitrate, and utilize glucose fermentatively (Kandler and Weiss, 
1986). They may be either homofermentative, producing more than 85% lactic 
acid from glucose, or heterofermentative, producing lactic acid, CO2, ethanol, 
and/or acetic acid in equimolar amounts. The genus Lactobacillus presently 
comprises more than 50 recognized species. These are compiled in Table 1 with 
the most recent changes in nomenclature indicated by arrows. Based on the 
results of nucleic acid hybridization and sequencing studies, the genus is now 
a well-defined group of organisms"

In this table I note that the bacterium is called L. sanfrancisco and the no 
arrow indicates a name change at least before 1984.



On the other hand, they couldn't leave this alone SO 
 ...http://www.dsmz.de/bactnom/nam1537.htm#1609:

"Name:         Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis
Authors:      Weiss and Schillinger 1984
Status:       New Species, Corrected Name
Literature:   Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 34:503 (validation list); [2792], 
[3242], [6933]
Risk group:   1 (German classification)
Comment:      nom. corrig.: IJSB 47:908*; Lactobacillus sanfrancisco (sic)
Type strain:  ATCC 27651, DSM 20451, L-12, NRRL B-3934"




If you think this is limited to bacteria you would be dead wrong.  The other 
component of sourdough, the yeast, called "Torulopsis holmii" in the original 
patents, has undergone a more tortuous name change that must confuse all but 
the most insider taxonomists.

Sourdough International has this comment under "sourdo.com":

" They classified the wild yeast as a strain of Saccharomyces exiguous  ( 
actually "exiguus", unless that has been changed! - DRB)  called "Torulopsis 
holmii". It was reclassified as "Candida milleri" and has again been 
reclassified as "Candida humilis". The lactobacillus is Lactobacillus 
sanfrancisco. The two organisms thrive in a symbiotic relationship that has 
protected the culture from contamination from other yeasts and bacteria for 
well over a century of baking. It is that symbiosis that, contrary to 
widespread mythology, will prevent contamination from organisms in your 
environment. They also found that "it seems apparent that this system would 
not work if baker's yeast were teamed with the sour dough bacteria.".

SO I guess if we want to be modern in our taxonomic uses we should call the 
species Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and Candida humilis, at least until 
they change it again.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley






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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:14:34 -0500
From: "Kevin Kutskill" <beer-geek at comcast.net>
Subject: Toe tag keg labels

John Bowerman tells us of his source for keg labels:

"a few years ago I stumbled onto a supply of toe tags.  Yep, the kind from
the morgue."

This opens up a wide variety of new beer names, such as "Stiff Stout",
"Korpse Koelsch", and "Body Bag Brown Ale", to name a few!

Kevin
beer-geek at comcast.net

"Life should NOT be  a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, pizza in one hand,  beer in the other, body thoroughly used up,
totally worn out and screaming  "WOO HOO what a ride!"




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:08:09 -0600
From: "quinn meneely" <qmeneely at hotmail.com>
Subject: thermostat question

I have the controller 2 from williams brewing, made by johsons controls, it 
does both heating and cooling. The problem I have is that to switch between 
the two I have to unscrew the face plate and trip a circuit, open circuit is 
cooling closed is heating, and after many many times of finding a 
screwdriver and dropping and loosing screws I am tired of it, soooo I want 
to put a switch on the outside of the thing. I dont know any specifics of 
amps or volts (sorry) how heavy duty of a  toggle switch and wire do I need? 
          Thanks Alot    Quinn




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:01:38 -0600
From: "Joe Aistrup" <joe_aistrup at msn.com>
Subject: Plastic cylindroconical

Hi all,

Christian asks about 15 gallon inductor tanks as a viable option for conical 
fermenter.  I've wondered about them too.  They are relatively cheap (about 
1/4 the cost of SS or Minibrew system), light weight, and have the right 
dimensions for a conical fermenter.  The only concern I have is that these 
are made from food grade medium density polyethelene (MDPE) as opposed to 
high density PE.  I'm not a plastics engineer, so I don't know if this even 
matters. But, I would like to know.

Christian, I would suggest a different tact on the side port and dumping 
valve.  It seems to me if you are going to use plastic, you minus well go 
all the way.  Instead of an expensive SS racking arm, I'd suggest you use a 
bulkhead Quick Disconnect fitting (it's a female connection). It's made of 
Polysulfone plastic and is available at B3.  Make sure you buy its male 
counter part. You could add a piece of Polyethylene tubing (3/8" ID) to this 
QD (it has a barbed fitting) to make a disposable racking arm, or simply 
leave it off and tip the keg (it is light weight) when you get to the 
bottom.  Also, I'm not sure I'd go with a 2" SS dump valve either. It is 
very expensive.  I'd suggest using a food grade plastic bulkhead fitting and 
reduce the MPT to 1".  Then you can attach a 1" SS dump valve.  I think you 
can make this change when you order the inductor tank.  It may cost you 
more, but it will save you a bunch.

Finally, let me add this: Anyone who ferments in plastics should know that 
one should not store their beer in HDPE or MDPE for long periods due to 
oxygen permeating through the plastic.  I already have a 8.5 minibrew HDPE 
conical, and I have had great success with it.  After two weeks of 
fermentation, I transfer the beer to SS Corny Kegs for any secondary 
fermentation and/or lagering.

I've investigated this option a bit, but have not made the plunge.  Like 
Christian, I'd appreciate any input from my fellow beerlings.

Joe Aistrup
Little Apple Brew Crew

PS: Happy Holidays.

PSS: What the heck does SWMBO stand for.  It obviously refers one's female 
and presumably better half (at least I know mine is, or at least she tells 
me this almost everyday).  But I'd like the precise interpretation of this 
acronym.




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:19:19 -0800 (PST)
From: CRESENZI <cresenzi at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Counterflow Chiller

I would also have to agree. There is no way I can see
you putting a copper tube inside of larger copper
tube, Then carefully bending the larger tube in a
sharp radius without kinking the inner tube. I would
bend both tubes separate but the same, and then cork
screw one inside the other. Also regardless what you
hear elsewhere there are only two kinds of soft
tubing. Type K used in water mains and type L. There
is also ACR which starts off as L then is acid cleaned
and capped. Seeing as they don't make Type K smaller
than 1/2" That tells me you did not use thin copper as
one post had suggested. And I know if you were to buy
a chiller it would be constructed of type L tube and
not K anyway. I would also be curious to find how you
bent the tube in the first place. 7/8" tube does not
take sharp radius's well with out the right equipment.
Keep On Brewing!
Anthony Ellington Connecticut


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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:51:39 -0500
From: Tony Brown <speleobopper at gmail.com>
Subject: Liquid Yeast Problems

Hi All,
I have been having problems with liquid yeast lately.  I bought a
Wyeast (smackpack) for a 5 gal IPA recently.  Four hours after
smacking the pack there was no swelling at all!  I pitched it
anyway...2 days later with no bubbles/foam at all on top of the wort I
pitched a dry packet and saw fermentation within hours.  The date on
the pack was late September.

Yesterday, I bought a White Labs vial for a 5 gal hefeweizen batch
(from the same store).  Best before January 24, 2005.  I decided to
make a yeast starter.  Used 1qt of water, 5oz liquid malt, 1/2 tsp
yeast nutrient, boiled for 10min, cooled to 72 deg, aerated by
shaking, pitched yeast and put the airlock on.  This morning, every
thing is settled out and no signs of fermentation.  The brew shop said
to swirl the yeast sediment and give it some time.  My question is
should a starter take this long?  Shouldn't I see fermentation within
a few hours?

Have I been buying dead yeast?

I have also had some slow bottle conditioning.  I took 3 weeks to see
any visible carbonation in my last batch.  Shaking the bottles after 2
weeks helped this along.

I am using 1/2 tsp of iodophor sanitizer to 5 gal of water and no
rinsing of anything.  Same for my bottles.

Is the sanitizer killing my yeast?
Please advise.
Tony


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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:09:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Celis White

Every once in a while, I see a post about Celis White.  I thought the
brewery closed a few years ago.  
What's the story?  
Is somebody making the beer?  
Is the same at it was in the mid 1990's?



=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE


		


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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:46:36 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd-mod at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Celis White

Leo asks about Celis White.  Michigan Brewing Co bought the name and 
recipe from Miller a couple of years ago. Pierre Celis came in and 
advised them while they were "tuning" the recipe for their equipment. 
It is now available in Michigan and Texas and probably other markets as 
well.

I've had it a few times, and it has unfortunately been of variable 
quality. Sometimes it seems spot-on, and other times it's full of 
diacetyl or just a bit off in some other way.  I haven't had any in the 
last few months, so I can say whether they've gotten it more under control.

They did take a Gold with it at the 2003 GABF.

You can find the story at http://www.michiganbrewing.com/

They also bought the old brewery equipment, which was a thing of beauty, 
but I don't know whether they've managed to actually put it to use yet.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI


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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:27:33 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: AFC BOS Beer on Tap at Oggi's

The best of show beer from the 2004 AFC HBC, Shock and Awe Belgian Dark
Strong Ale, will be on tap at the Mission Valley (San Diego) Oggi's starting
next Monday, December 20th.  Loren Miraglia, BOS Brewer, joined Oggi's
brewers John Wilson and Tom Nickel to brew a full 7 barrel batch of the
beer.  We are going to keep it on tap for two weeks - until Jan 3rd and then
keg it off to let it build up some age.  I figure we will re-release around
the time of the 2005 AFC HBC in Feb/March.  The beer will also be on tap at
the Santee Oggi's later in January.  Any questions please email Tom Nickel
at: brewhaus at hotmail.com.

Go to:

http://www.quaff.org/AFC2005/AFCHBC.html

To register for your chance to have your beer on tap!

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego



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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:54:45 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Plastic cylindroconical


Christian said:


>Ok, for the second time in a year I've lost 6 gallons of promising
brew
>due to bust carboys (luckily, I brewed 15 gallons of this one).  So
far
>I've avoided bodily harm but not emotional.  In short, I'm iching for
a
>CC fermenter like never before.  But, I've got one wee one and
another
>on the way, and those rare spare dollars really ought to be flowing
into
>college funds rather than Dad's hobby.  So, does anyone have any
>experience using these plastic Inductor tanks?
>http://www.denhartogindustries.com/inductor.asp#Products.
>http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=
>usplastic&category%5Fname=20726&product%5Fid=3863 (paste link back
>together)
>Seems like a stainless 2 inch ball valve for the dump port and a
zymico
>racking assembly ought to turn this into an acceptable solution.  The
>rep actually has heard of people using these and knew enough to
>recommend against using it for wine because they are slightly
permeable.
> So I guess long-term lagering is out (unless I can saturate the
>environment inside my fermenting fridge with CO2).

>Thoughts, anyone?

>Christian

Christian etal:

  I've been using one of the US Plastics 15 Gal. 'mix tanks' for
primary fermenter for Mead.  Works great.  I used a reducer on the
bottom port to a 3/4" stainless ball valve for dumping.  So far I
haven't
added the racking port, I have mine sitting high enough so I can
siphon
into secondary fermentor(s).

Kevin, Brewing and Mazing in South Jersey




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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:24:44 -0500
From: Nate & Brenda Wahl <cruiser at coastalwave.net>
Subject: Carboy carrier

Brewers!

The recent flurry of carboy incidents prompted me to update the pages 
showing the carriers I made for my glass carboys, and advice was added 
on how to build them.  They really do work very well.  I highly 
recommend that if you use carboys regularly, try to come up with some 
sort of similar arrangement if you can.  Obviously any time you throw 
around a glass vessel filled with over 40 pounds of liquid you have to 
be very careful, but these at least make it a little easier and a little 
safer.

Here's the link, questions/comments welcome:
http://users.coastalwave.net/~cruiser/Carboy/carboy.html

Cheers!
Nate Wahl
aka Oogie Wa Wa
Oak Harbor, Ohio
South about 40, then East about 35 more.



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---