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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE : Collapsed inner bubing of CFC (Steven Parfitt)
  Grain storage (Jeremy Hansen)
  Lag times vs viability ("Fredrik")
  Grain Storage Containers (Fred Johnson)
  grain storage (Ed Jones)
  Re: Celis White Clone? (blutick)
  re:  Grain Storage / taxonomicizing (stencil)
  Too too serious, Yeast viability ("Dave Burley")
  Re: wort reduction for caramel (Mike_Andrews)
  SS mag drive pump (PAUL MANTOVANI)
  Re: Grain Storage ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  Good to be back ("hunter@pannicke.net")
  Re: Williams Temp Controller II (was Theermostat Question) (Kent Fletcher)
  MCAB VII Announcement ("David Houseman")


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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:00:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE : Collapsed inner bubing of CFC

The CFC was one of three that were made some seven
years ago.

Two were made by straightening the tubing and pushing
the inner tubing in, then wrapping the assembly around
a 15" form.

The third (actually the first attempt) was made by
leaving the tubing in the original form (larger than
15" dia for the larger tubing) and forcing the inner
tubing inside it. Then it was wrapped around the 15"
form to reduce the diameter.

I don't know which one I have.

The final CFC has a 15" inner diameter. There are
about five and a half turns for my chiller.

I doubt I have kinked it by turning it on a 15" dia
form.



=====
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968


		


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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:06:50 -0600
From: Jeremy Hansen <cfjh at eiu.edu>
Subject: Grain storage

The lids referred to are Gamma Seal Lids. I love them for making a cheap
plastic fermentor into something quite a bit more sanitary and secure. For
about $7, you permanently snap on a gasketed ring, which has large threads
that you screw the lid into. Online survivalist stores ("Head for the hills!
The Feds are coming! Or maybe the Messiah!") sell them for holding grain.

Jeremy Hansen



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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:14:29 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Lag times vs viability

To contribute to the lagtime/starter discussion the came up, FWIW, 
here are some of my experienced lag datapoints...

( I define apparent lag as the first significant(ie not fluctuations) 
  CO2 release, either airlock bubbling or pressure buildup in a 
  capped bottle )

1) My normal lag time when pitching into the wort/beer is 6-8 hours 
    for ales. Then I prepare the yeast, do all aeration etc prior to 
    pitching at low temp, so that most of the adaptation phase is all 
    done before pitching.

2) The only times when my lag is more than 12 hours, I have been using old 
    dry yeast, or otherwise crappy or not well prepared yeast. 

3) The worst I've seen in a beer batch was more than 24 hour lag, but then
     I used one old pack of outdated nottingham. Not activated, just 
     rehydrated.When there was no activity at 24 h I pitched more (good) 
     yeast and it took off.

In starters...

4) I made a ~5 million/ml/P(estimate only) starter out of the openend 19 month 
old (unsmacked!) smack pack WY2565 and I say ~48 hour lag, and it hit peak 
after around 60+ hours. As mention in the other post the methyelene staining 
indicated 86% viability (wich I do not trust).

5) I made a ~0.5 million/ml/P(estimate only) starter out of a frozen WY3787 
(frozen  at -20C for 6.5 months in glycerin/water) and as per the methylene 
staining it was now ~12% viable. Starter lag was 48 hour, full peak hit at
60 hours. Smells good at revival too. I have revived this yeast two times,
the last time was at 5 months, then pitching rate was 1 million/ml/P and the
performance was identical, ~48h-lag/60h-peak. Give or take some hours.

My shortest lag ever were 2-4 hours in low gravity batch fermented 
at room temp with lots of active prepared yeast.

My loose impression so far is that unprepared or dormant seem to have 
an intrinsic lag that may be up to at least 12 hours or maybe more? This 
is my impression based on the lag offset wether you prepare or not 
prepare the yeast for a given pitching rate. I have noticed that if the yeast 
is prepare there doesn't seem to be a reason for having lags longer than 
12 hours or something like that (maybe even more), that said perhaps it 
makes no difference to the beer but anyway.

 /Fredrik



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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:09:06 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Grain Storage Containers

I thought I should add my one bad experience storing bulk grain in 
plastic buckets. I used to put grain into a lidded plastic buckets in 
the tall crawl space of my house in the winter. The temperature was 
always cool or cold. However, mice find this area to be a nice shelter, 
especially in cold weather, and they can smell the grain. Mice have no 
problem chewing through plastic buckets. I think they actually enjoyed 
the conquest of getting to my grain.

I now put 55 lb sacks of grain in metal garbage cans in the crawl 
space. (I leave the grain in the sack for easy removal of the last of 
the grain as it nears the bottom.)

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:39:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Ed Jones <cuisinartoh at yahoo.com>
Subject: grain storage

Am I the only one who stores their 50 pounds of grain in the sack they
came in? I store specialty grains in vacuum bags and/or sealed 1 gallon
buckets, but I routinely store pilsner and pale malts in their original
sacks for 6-9 months at a time. Do I really need to invest $100 to buy
two of those vittles vaults just to store grain? It seems to me that
each individual grain comes with its own hard case to protect it :-)



=====
Ed Jones - Columbus, Ohio U.S.A - [163.8, 159.4] [B, D] Rennerian

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:25:57 -0600
From: blutick at juno.com
Subject: Re: Celis White Clone?

Randy Mosher wrote about his conversations with Pierre Celis on brewing 
Celis White:
>I think Celis used a lactic culture of some kind, but he was very
secretive 
>about this aspect.

I toured the Celis Brewery with a group of my fellow North Texas Home 
Brewers back in August of 2000. This was sometime after Miller Brewing 
had bought the Celis family's remaining stake in the business and taken 
complete control of the brewery. Lenzie Kinyon was the Celis brew master 
at that time and served as our tour guide.  It was a great tour and
Lenzie 
answered our questions on Celis' ingredients and brewing procedures. He 
held back a bit when we asked about their yeast strains, saying they were

proprietary. Other than that, he answered our questions in a very 
straightforward manner.

When I asked how they got the acidic bite in the White and the Grand Cru,

Lenzie told me that they added glacial acetic acid prior to bottling. As
for 
spices, he told us that bitter orange peel and coriander were used in
both the 
White and Grand Cru. They had samples of both coriander and bitter orange

peel for visitors to examine in the hospitality room. Lenzie never
mentioned 
chamomile, but I never asked about it.

It's possible, of course, that Miller changed some ingredients and
procedures 
after they took control of Celis. Maybe so but I couldn't detect any
difference 
in the beers. If Pierre Celis did indeed use acetic acid, I can
understand his 
desire to keep that a secret. Sharing that information could only lessen
the 
mystique his beers enjoyed at the time and might even hurt his image as
an 
artisanal brewer. Regardless of how he did it, I'm thankful that Pierre
Celis 
came to the US and brewed his beers. I still miss that Gran Cru.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:43:41 -0500
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: re:  Grain Storage / taxonomicizing

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:37:44 -0500, A.J.  deLange
wrote inHomebrew Digest #4679 (December 20, 2004)
>
>While at PetSmart one day a few years ago my eye was drawn to a square 
>plastic bin with screw-in (not screw-on) top complete with O-ring 

Note that the female-threaded adapter ring *snaps* onto the top of the main
container and thus is not a hermetic seal.  A bead of aquarium calk corrects
this.

> [ ... ]. These things are 
>called 'Vittles Vaults' and you can find out all about them at 
>http://www.gammaplastics.com. These are great for storage of grain 

The 40-pounder, which holds around 14 gallons, makes an excellent fermenter.  

Grain, I keep in a 30-gallon plastic garbage can, mounted on a wheeled dolly.
Within that are homemade 10-in x 20-in storage bags, made from 3-mil poly with
the aid of a 12-in impulse sealer (slave-built, via Harbor Freight.)

 =============

Dave B. laments the academic nannies who 'correct' the speciating
/sanfrancisco/  to the genitive.  This is, unfortunately, the spirit of the
age;  the hero perched on his heap of rubble cannot pause to ram a fresh clip
of hardball into his 1911 without having to kick away a pack of dogs barking,
"magazine! magazine!"

Pausing for a sip of Strong Scotland Ale before returning to tug at his
Loadmaster,

stencil sends
(and lies - only a fool drinks while reloading)


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:46:12 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Too too serious, Yeast viability

Brewsters:

Robert Sandefer took me too seriously in my comments on taxonomy changes. 
However, he acknowledges and then defends the politics involved in the 
"academic" community and the ensuing name changes. Then he follows up by 
wanting to make SWMBO more PC. This just proves my point. Is NOTHING Sacred?

My basic point was that taxonomy's supposed purpose is to communicate with 
clarity, so there is no misunderstanding.  Constantly changing the naming 
without noting the change has the opposite effect.  This, of course, does not 
bother academic insiders, since they are often driven by academic politics and 
publishing yet one more article about less and less, not clarity.

I suggest any communication, in which there has been a major name change, 
include all the terms at least once in any publication where it is used, 
perhaps in the following manner:

 L. sanfrancisensis ( formerly L. sanfrancisco)

and  Candida  humilis  ( formerly C. milleri or Torulopsis holmii)

And as far as your PC name change of "She" to "Spouse" in SWMBO, who says you 
have to be married to have a SWMBO anyway and who really cares? I mean, you 
even missed the obvious PC thing. Suppose it is two guys living together in 
sexual bliss, butt, thankfully, unmarried, at least in most states? Would you 
propose HWMBO? or maybe WWMBO ( Whoever who must be obeyed)?

The documented phrase is SHE Who Must Be Obeyed.

What gives you or any other PC type the right to try to butt into our sacred, 
mostly male, bastion and try to spread your poison?  I strongly believe all 
wishing to be so, must be included in a positive manner, but this doesn't mean 
every situation, because we are all different, which PC blindly refuses to 
recognize. I celebrate all female brewers ( esp those here on HBD) who, 
thankfully and historically, were the original Brewsters. But, personally, I 
think we as a society have been too tolerant of PC for too long. It has gotten 
us nowhere but confused. Remember "majority rules" ( whatever happened to that 
phrase?)  guarantees the society will survive for the good of most of its 
members.

SWMBO is just intended to be funny - a loving, smiling, approving comment on 
the male position in the conventional household, recognizing the real power 
there, not a put down of anyone.

- ------------------------
/Fredrik, I don't have the original reference here, but my recollection is 
that the early work in Carlsberg showed that the true lager yeast S. 
carlsbergensis ( or is it S. uvarum or  S cerevisiae var carlsbergensis or S. 
uvarum var carlsbergensis or  ....?)  were still viable after 30 years under 
distilled water and at room temperature.

BTW if you want to see a classic example supporting my above comments and how 
our taxes are being spent, check out 
http://www.epa.gov/biotech_rule/fra/fra010.htm. by TSCA/EPA  "Saccharomyces 
uvarum Final Risk Assessment" They even suggest it might be good idea to 
change this name to S. bayanus - wine yeast famous for it production of 
champagne bubbles, but waffle away.


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


 




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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:06:49 -0500
From: Mike_Andrews at vfc.com
Subject: Re: wort reduction for caramel

Jon, our beer club brewed a Thomas Hardy Ale clone a couple of weeks ago.
The malt bill was 100 percent pale malt (22lbs) for a 6 gallon batch.  We
started out with 12 gallons in the brew kettle and boiled it down to 6.  I
transferred this beer a few days ago and the color resembles an english
bitter with 10 percent crystal 60.  The flavor is definitely sweet, and
warm, but I expect this to mellow as the beer ages over the next year or
two.  I guess the short answer is yes, you can get caramel flavor and color
by reducing wort with a long boil.  But, adjusting the malt bill makes for
a much shorter brew day, and I'm not sure if the final product is any
different.

Mike Andrews
Battleground Brewers



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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:29:17 -0800 (PST)
From: PAUL MANTOVANI <paul.mantovani at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: SS mag drive pump

I was able to find a very good deal on a pump on Ebay.
 It's a March stainless steel magnetic drive.  Great
pump, but I got to thinking, "What was this used for
previously, cyanide, dioxin?"  Who knows.

What would be a good procedure to clean the pump
assembly thoroughly so I wouldn't have to worry about
what I'm adding to my beer?  Is there a good chemical
I can obtain that would remove any traces of whatever
was previously going through this thing?

It's completely stainless, so I don't think it could
be impregnated with anything that couldn't be removed.

Thanks in advance.

Paul


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:52:12 -0600
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig at cottingham.net>
Subject: Re: Grain Storage

I saw somewhere once a suggestion on how to keep stored grain safe from 
infestation. I wish I could remember where.

Get a trash can big enough to hold the full sack of grain. Plastic 
should be fine, but metal resists chewing on by rodents if you're 
storing your grain where that might be a problem. The lid doesn't need 
to make an airtight seal, but the can itself should be free of air 
holes. If you don't trust yours, just line it with a plastic trash bag.

Put the grain in the can along with a 1-lb block of dry ice. As the dry 
ice sublimes to CO2 gas, it will sink to the bottom of the can, 
displacing the oxygen. This has the dual effect of protecting the grain 
from oxidation and making it inhospitable for any beasties which might 
try to take up residence.

Note: Don't seal the can (or the trash bag lining it, if you used one). 
One pound of dry ice produces about 60 gallons of CO2 gas at room 
temperature, assuming I still remember how to do math -- or, to put it 
another way, two atmospheres of pressure in a 30-gallon trash bag.

- --
Craig S. Cottingham
craig at cottingham.net
OpenPGP key available from:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x7977F79C



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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:20:35 -0500
From: "hunter at pannicke.net" <hunter@pannicke.net>
Subject: Good to be back

Hello All,

After taking a break from the forum it's good to back in the HBD.  
Life has settled down a bit for me and I have time for brewing once again.
It also helps if SWMBO likes beer! 

I can see my old friends are still up to thier old tricks:

Mr. Burley is still delivering the facts
AJ is comming up with good ideas (like vittles vaults)
Mr. Palmer is giving advice on stainless steel, once again
Mr. Renner is still figuring out his coordinates 
and Pat, as usual, is cleaning up the mess.

How about my mate from Down Under, Mr Sanders?

Updates on my side:  
All stainless end-to-end setup -  brewing/fermenting/kegging
New carport for rain-free brewing
New future assistant brewmaster as of 1/31/04 (baby boy)

Happy Holidays All!

Glen Pannicke


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:31:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Williams Temp Controller II (was Theermostat Question)

The controller qmeneely was asking about is the
Johnson Controls A419 Electronic Temperature Control,
with a Williams Brewing faceplate.  To switch this
unit from cooling mode to heating mode and still be
able to just plug the controlled load into the
existing outlet cord, he has to open the unit and
change a small jumper, similar to the kind found on
hard drives, mother boards, etc.

If all you need is to be able to control a heater
inside a fridge for fermentation purposes, all you
need to do is connect an outlet with the hot line
connected to the NO terminal on TB2, and the neutral
wired with the other neutrals.  As long as you use a
resistive load (ordinary light bulbs, heating pad,
etc.) you can run up to 10 amps on the NO contact. 
Note that this wiring will leave no dead band between
heating and cooling, but if you use a low wattage
heater, you shouldn't have any short cycling problems.

If you still want to go with external switching, all
you need is a micro size toggle and 22 or 24 ga wire,
as you would just be substituting a swithc for the
jumper, which operate at TTL level current
(microamperes).  Connect the toggle switch to Jumper 1
on P4, you shouldn't need to switch Jumper 2.  Thus,
with one microtoggle, you can switch from Cooling
(switch open or off) to Heating (switch closed or on)
modes, both with cut-out at setpoint.  In other words,
when set to 68 in either mode, the load will be
switched off when the temp reaches 68.  Hope that
helps,

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal


		


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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:02:47 -0500
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>
Subject: MCAB VII Announcement

The Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing for 2005, MCAB VII, will
take place on March 4th and 5th, at the Desmond Hotel and Conference
Center in Malvern, PA.  The organizers of the Qualifying Events for this
competition have been asked to submit the names, address and email
addresses for all qualifiers.  When these have been received, individual
notices will be sent.  Until then all qualifiers should crank up the
kettles or get our those stowed bottles of beer and prepare to send in
your entries.  The entrance fee will be $5/entry this year to offset
competition costs.  Further details will be posted on the MCAB email
site at www.hbd.org and future postings to this forum.

David Houseman
Competition Organizer


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