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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Happy New Year! ("Pat Babcock")
  Wyeast 3822 ("melanchthon")
  Commercial yeasts: mixtures of strains? (Fred Johnson)
  Finishing fermentation in kegs ("melanchthon")
  Slaked Lime Treatment ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Commercial yeasts: mixtures of strains? ("Dave Burley")
  Yeasty flavors ("Peed, John")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 01:39:00 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Happy New Year!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your rendition of Renner's Egg Nog...

Wishing you all a happy and safe new year!

- --

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org




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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:05:06 -0500
From: "melanchthon" <rhayader at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Wyeast 3822

I recently purchased some Wyeast "Dutch Castle" #3822 from Nothern Brewer. I
did this because I didn't remember seeing it around before and its
description sounded interesting so what the heck, right?

After searching some books and the web however, I can find no recipes using
it or accounts of experiences with it, only people asking the same questions
I am. Can anyone enlighten me about this? Even a rough recipe style idea
would be extremely appreciated!

Chris Hart
D ungshovelerson & Son's Brewery
Gainesville, FL




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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 08:26:09 -0500
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Commercial yeasts: mixtures of strains?

Dave Burley made an interesting statement in his recent post regarding 
Wyeast 1318:

> If this is a true London yeast mixture of powdery and flocculant 
> strains and
> not a single strain,...

I was not under the impression that the yeast strains we purchased 
could be a mixture of strains unless stated so on the package. Is it 
true that London "strains" are often mixtures? I do realize that we 
aren't necessarily getting a clone, but I didn't realize we were 
getting known mixtures. If this is true, it is a very important point, 
as Dave noted. If one is selecting yeast from the secondary rather than 
the primary, one will be propagating yeast with significantly different 
properties.

I, personally, don't usually save a repitch the yeast from either 
fermentor. I save part of the starter in the fridge and grow that up as 
a new starter for the next batch, so I don't think I've selected the 
powdery strain away from the more flocculant strain.

(I don't want to get into the Clinitest thing again. I was never 
convinced that a beer with a lot of unfermentables will give the same 
results by Clinitest as a beer without a lot of unfermentables when 
fermentation is complete.)

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:08:25 -0500
From: "melanchthon" <rhayader at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Finishing fermentation in kegs

I have an additional, perhaps stupid, question.

When I have finished fermenting in the secondary in carboys and proceed to
keg my beer, I get a gravity reading and force carbonate. Sometimes a keg
will go right into the fridge and sometimes it will sit in my office at room
temperature for even a few months. 

These are all ales and what I want to know is: Does the kegged beer under
pressure ferment further at room temperature as it sits? I believe I heard
somewhere that pressure suppresses the yeasts fermentation abilities. I know
I can attempt another reading but I want to know first in theory if this is
possible. So should I begin taking readings also on the day I put the kegs
in the fridge?

Chris Hart
D ungshovelerson & Son's Brewery
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:11:39 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Slaked Lime Treatment

I think part of the confusion with regard to statements to the effect 
that slaked lime (quick lime works just as well but is a little trickier 
to handle and store) is ineffective in treating water with high levels 
of permanent hardness is that lime treatment is thought of as a way of 
softening water when in fact it is actually done to reduce alkalinity 
i.e. to decarbonate. When the hardness is temporary there are equivalent 
amounts of calcium and bicarbonate (in fact the temporary hardess is 
defined as the amount of bicarbonate equivalent to the calcium) and the 
rection is 

Ca(OH)2  + Ca(HCO3)2   ---> 2CaCO3 + 2H2O.

For permanent hardness one must add calcium equivalent to the remaining 
bicarbonate and the reaction becomes

Ca(OH)2 + 2Na(HCO3) + CaCl2 --> 2 CaCO3 + 2H2O + 2NaCl

in which I used calcium chloride as the source of the extra calcium. 
Note that in both cases all the calcium  precipitates and in both cases 
the pH is not effected (thoretically). This is the basis for Hubert's 
scheme in which the lime is added to a portion of the water and the rest 
then added gradually until the pH falls back to its original value. So 
decarbonation is possible in both cases. The difference is that with 
temporary hardness you get rid of the bicarbonate. Period. With 
permanent hardness the bicarbonate is removed but it is replaced by the 
anion of whatever salt you used to supply the extra calcium. The 
concentration of anion is equivalent to the alkalnity removed. Why not 
use extra lime to get the calcium? The reaction  to clear all the 
bicarbonate would be:

Ca(OH)2 + 2NaHCO3 + Ca(OH)2 --> 2 CaCO3 + 2H2O + Na+  + 2OH-

in other words the pH would go up (extra hydroxyl ions) and you would 
have replace bicarbonate alkalinity with hydroxyl alkalinity when your 
goal was to reduce total alkalinity. Over time CO2 from the air would 
dissolve

2CO2    +  2Na+   +  2OH-   --> 2NaHCO3

and you'd be right back where you started from.


The particular water in question is alkaline to the extent of about 2 
mval (100 ppm as CaCO3). As a practical matter one can expect to 
decarbonate to about 1 mval using lime and that's with a well controlled 
process. Hubert Hanghoffer is the guy to see about how to do it most 
effectively but his scheme requires a pH meter (to detect the leveling 
off of pH drop mentioned above). Given the low calcium level we can say 
reasonably accurately that the 1 mval removed by lime treatment would be 
replaced by 1 mval of chloride (35 mg/L).

 The real problem with the water in question is the whopping sodium 
level. There is no simple way to remove this and so the best plan might 
be to blend the well water with RO or deionized water say 1:3. This will 
reduce the sodium to 17 ppm, the total hardness to 4 ppm and the 
alkalinity to 25 ppm as CaCO3. You ought to be able to do a decent Pils 
with that plus perhaps a pinch of calcium chloride.

The high sodium level and low calcium beg the question as to whether 
this water has been run through an ion exchange softener either in the 
house or at the well ("private well" suggests that it could be a 
community well serving a small group of houses or it could serve only 
one dwelling). If a softener is involved you'll want to bypass it for 
brewing. The other thing of concern is the high pH. 9.3 is above the WHO 
approved level for potable water and the high sodium level with that pH 
suggest leaching of something into the water. I'd assume the lab eould 
have warned if anything were amiss.

A.J.


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:13:40 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Commercial yeasts: mixtures of strains? 

Fred,

I know Wyeast provides some mixed strains but I believe these are identfied as 
such.  No guartantee that yeast identified as actual strains of London yeasts 
aren't composed of a mixture of strains, though

London ale yeasts classically had a powdery and a flocculant strain and often 
two or more of each. This corrected for the various fermenting conditions and 
permitted the beer to finish out quickly and with a unique flavor profile.

This likely was not a choice as when these original yeast were developed there 
wasn't even an understanding of how fermentation worked. But a good lesson of 
how we have progressed technically under the influence of skilled adepts.

I thought you had tried Clinitest and had a kit.

My point about the Clinitest was that it would provide you with some 
pertinent information about apparent attentuation ( that is, are the yeast 
finishing out the sugar?). This is information which you can get no other way 
without using Clinitest.

Why not tie your other arm behind your back also? {8^)

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:14:13 -0500
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Yeasty flavors


Denny suggests that I look at all aspects of my brewing process to find the
source of yeasty flavors in my cream ales.  I agree, but I don't know where
to look!  Obviously, the best way to remove yeasty flavors is to remove the
yeast, and the best way to do that is filtration.  That can be argued any
number of ways, but I've proven to myself that probably the best thing you
can do to improve the flavor of your beer is to properly filter it.
Although I can't be certain that I've seen this notion backed up in the
literature, experience tells me that tiny hop particles, proteins and other
particles cling to yeast cells and if you remove the yeast cells, you also
remove all this other stuff.  The result is that the taste of the beer is
much cleaner, better defined and more refined, with cleaner malt flavor and
less harshness in the bitterness.  I've heard it said that filtration only
improves the appearance, not the flavor - in no way is that true.  I've also
heard it said that filtration has no place in home brewing, and that also is
completely untrue - filtration is as much a key to excellent homebrew
results as just about anything else.  It isn't all that complicated and it
requires very little equipment beyond the standard keg setup, but it does
involve extra time and work, and you have to learn how to do it correctly.

But that rant aside, and having filtered the yeast out of the beer, where
now do I look for the source of yeasty flavors?  I've read Fix's Principles
of Brewing Science and An Analysis of Brewing Techniques, and I can remember
having seen only one reference to yeasty after-flavors.  I know darn well
that I highlighted it, but I'll have to look very methodically to find it
again.  At any rate, I remember thinking that it was fairly obscure and
probably not a common problem.  Other than that, I have no idea what to
suspect, other than the yeast strain.  I'm betting that's the source, and
I'll let you know the results of future attempts with other yeasts.  Bear in
mind that we're talking about a very subtle flavor here, in a beer that
demands subtlety.  I want a very subtle corn sweetness in the finish,
balanced by a clean, subtle hop briskness - not bitterness, just briskness -
and anything else (other than a very gentle hint of maltiness) will pretty
much stomp all over the beer.  Even a whisper of yeastiness will come across
as a shout, and you'd never detect it in an American Pale, or most other
styles.  I will say this: lagering helps cream ales, and the yeastiness is
diminishing as it ages.

John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN



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