HOMEBREW Digest #4688 Sun 02 January 2005

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  Wyeast Dutch Castle (Chet Nunan)
  Dry Hopping w/Pellets (Bob)
  Sri Lanka brewery ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  Malty light beer ("Anna R. Dunster")
  Status report on viability/methylene/plating confusion ("Fredrik")
  link of the week - wikipedia (Bob Devine)
  attenuation and Clinitest ("Dave Burley")
  Wy3822 ("Dave Burley")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 07:09:07 -0800 (PST) From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com> Subject: Wyeast Dutch Castle In reply to Chris Hart's post re: Dutch Castle yeast - I've used this several times, and I'd target a Saison. The extra tartness and dry finish are well suited to this style, although it'd work in most Belgian styles. It would also make a nice base yeast for the lambic/gueze styles. Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 10:30:13 -0500 From: Bob <Bob at homebrew.com> Subject: Dry Hopping w/Pellets Tony asks about dry-hopping with pellets... Either pellets/plugs/whole hops may be used for dry hopping. Pellets afford the greatest hop oil potential per ounce since the hop has been significantly abraded in the pellet formation process, exposing the oils. But with that advantage, pellets also bring along the green pond scum effect as they disperse. I recommend a weighted hop bag for dry-hopping. I usually boil the hop bag for a few minutes to sanitize it; add a marble along with the hop pellets, to prevent the hop bag from floating. When it's time to keg or bottle, leave the hop bag in the fermentor until you've transferred off the beer - else you may stir up sediment, or allow some hop slime into the batch. For your present predicament - don't worry (where have I heard that) - most of the hop particles will sediment - what remains floating can be left behind in the fermentor, when you decant to your bottling bucket. Residual Hop particles in suspension will settle out in your bottles. Just pour carefully as you would to leave the yeast sediment behind and enjoy. - -- Bob (somewhere in southern Carolina) Fruit Fly Brewhaus Yesterdays' Technology Today Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 13:23:39 -0500 From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com> Subject: Sri Lanka brewery The Lion Brewery of Colombo, Sri Lanka, normally produces 160,000 bottle of beer per day. On Monday (Dec 27), it changed to bottling of potable water for the tsunami victims. See the full story: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/01/01/beer.water.ap/index.html Sincerely, Peter A. Ensminger Syracuse, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:19:18 -0800 From: "Anna R. Dunster" <azzacanth at livejournal.com> Subject: Malty light beer is it possible? Or if I want a decent maltiness, do I need to make a dark ale? Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:03:03 +0100 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Status report on viability/methylene/plating confusion Some time ago I posted about what I found to be amazingly high viabilities number in a 19 months old wyeast smackpack as per the methylene staining method. I have not been checking viability for very long and it was the first time I actually checked viability in a smack pack. Even though it is clear that the viability was expected to be alot higher than my previous fridge slurry test, 86% viability was just more than what I could believe without further evidence. All this made me doubt on the reliability of the methylene blue method. I have during the holidays made several platings of the same yeast, and also correlated with methylene blue staining. I have yet to repeat these test on pack in the future to make sure I get the same results, but with this in mind, fwiw, these are the results of my so far limited testing... 1) Viability as per the MBS(methylene blue staining) dropped from 86% to 46% in 46 days. - This viability drop rate is very much similar to the fridge slurry test. Maybe suggesting, that once the package is broken the viability starts to drop similar to a fridge slurry? I have no intermediate datapoints. I just know that viability was 86% at 0d, and 46% at 46d. 2) At 46d, I tried severals platings, and the cfu / plated cells gave me 15%, as compared with 46% from MBS. - ~50% of the deviation can probably be explained from the fact that cells stick togehter. Microscopic examination indicates the that cell count / potential cfu as referenced to chunks of 2 or 3 or rarely more cells were around 1.8 in my sample. Also these were dorman cells. Now I have to little data to draw any solid conclusions but if I'd go ahead an do so anyway, it would indicate at this viability that apart from that cells stick together, only around 58% of the non-stained cells generate colonies. I have searched the net but not found much details on this before. There must be solid documentation on these methods, maybe I just haven't foudn it? I have too little data of my own to conclude, but it's all I've got. I will try to repeat the same experiments in the future, and try to correlate staining and plating. Plating is very easy, but it takes 2 days to get the colonies + since I've seen from microscopic examination that cells tend to stick together I would expect that at least in some cases the plating would underestimate the viability of a magnitue that is comparable to the overestimation as per the MBS method. If the there is a repeatable pattern in the deviation this could be accounted for by correction terms. Hopefully future test will reveal this. So, the summary guesses *so far* is... .that I now think that the viability count in the smackpack probably was somewhere 50-86% rather than 86%, and that it now is around 26%. Still higher than I though, but at least a little bit more "sensible". This raises the question wether my fridge slurry test, also contains overestimates. If the ratio of overestimation could be found to be predictable it would allow a useful correction to the methods. The simplest possible assumption would be that the error drops from 0% at 100% viability to some 50% around 25% viability. I will check this hypothesis in a future test. Too bad I didn't have a plating curve to compare along with the fridge test experiment. For now I'll continue to rely on MBS by keep in mind the possibility that it may be an overestimation. The goal is to find correction terms or at least worst case deviations to apply to the methylene blue counts at low viabilities. But it may be that such a correction is too complicated. The last mystery: I still see two distinct morhpologies in the sample, both spherical and rod shaped of similar size. This is still weird. Could kolesh be an mixed strain? or could one strain exhibit a diverse morphology?? The round shaped are the most common though, but there are enough rod shapes one for me to wonder how come. /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 11:05:24 -0700 From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net> Subject: link of the week - wikipedia One of the great projects on the web is wikipedia, a comprehensive encyclopedia that is created and extended by whoever wishes to help. In that spirit, here are the current entries for beer and homebrewing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/beer If anyone wants to improve the entries with more information or more sub-topics, here's your chance. Bob Devine Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:34:48 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: attenuation and Clinitest Brewsters: Fred Johnson says in the last HBD: (I don't want to get into the Clinitest thing again. I was never convinced that a beer with a lot of unfermentables will give the same results by Clinitest as a beer without a lot of unfermentables when fermentation is complete.) and in a private conversation with me, gives some specifics as to why he holds this opinion: > Yes, I have Clinitest and use it.... > but ... a finished beer with lots of > unfermentables can read >1/4% "glucose". For example, I get higher > readings with Clinitest on > really big beers that are well-attenuated and higher readings on beers > that are known to have lots of nonfermentables such as beers with high > amounts of Munich malt. >These higher values simply come from the high > concentration of unfermentables that are positive on Clinitest. I replied: All sounds normal and I have seen similar results, but I do disagree with your conclusion basically because I can get a 0% glucose response with Clinitest under proper conditions. This indicates Clinitest is not responding to unfermentables. Let me see if I can explain this apparent contradiction. I'm guessing those really big beers were barleywine and you used an ale yeast and the Munich malt beers you used a lager yeast. This may explain to some extent your results. If lager yeast was used, when did you measure the Clinitest? At the very "end" of a fermentation ( i.e the cessation of bubbling) with lager yeast you could also get about 1/4% glucose by Clinitest, but under lagering conditions you will see the Clinitest response go to 0%. Ale yeast will not show this response. These positive responses you are getting aren't really "reducing" (that is to which Clinitest is responding) unfermentables detected by Clinitest, just "reducing fermentables" unfermented by the yeast or conditions you are using. And that is one whole point of using Clinitest as an indicator of true attenuation and my comments thereon. Apparent attenutation determined by final SG confuses the picture since it measures BOTH the unfermentable carbohydrates ( and other stuff) from the mashing conditions AND from the unfermented ( but fermentable) carbohydrates that are a result of the fermentation conditions including the yeast ( strain, pitching rate, temperature, etc). Using apparent attenuation as a method of evaluating a yeast or mash conditions is therefore confused by the multiple factors involved, including alcohol content. When you measure attentuation at 0% "glucose" this is a true measurement of the attentuation produced by your mashing and fermentation conditions. If you measure "glucose" content with Clinitest and your SG measurements for "Atttenuation" you can correct attenuation to this 0% condition mathematically. If you use a real lager yeast ( S. uvarum or whatever its name is this week) after lagering and compare it with an ale yeast you will find that Clinitest will give you a 0% or nearly 0% ( betweeen 0 and 1/4%) reading on the 5 drop test. Using more drops of beer will increase the sensitivity of the test and in about 6 weeks of lagering will give 0 or near zero even with a 10 drop of beer test. In my experience, ale yeast under proper conditions for an ale yeast will give you about 1/4% glucose when "fully fermented" out in a few weeks. These reducing sugars which give a Clinitest response are the trisaccharides which a true lager yeast can ferment and an ale yeast can't. Thus, Clinitest routinely gives about 1/4% "glucose" with a yeast with normal alcohol concentration ales. I'd have to see some examples, including your mashing conditions, but with really big beers, you will have, naturally, a higher concentration of tri-saccharides, since you started with more malt. If you used an ale yeast for these beers you would expect to get a positive Clinitest reading ( maybe even 1/2% for barleywines) and it is real. If you chose a true lager yeast you would expect this to eventually go to zero or very near zero with proper lagering. Depending on your pitching conditions, you might expect lower enzyme activity due to the high alcohol and not finish out completely for some yeasts. The high sugar content of your mash for these big beers could also affect the sugar profile of your wort, especially with a short saccharification step. True old fashioned Munich malt has a lower enzyme content of the amylases, than normal pale lager ( esp US 6-row ) malt, as I am sure you know and you could expect some higher concentrations of tri-saccharides with pure Munich mashes which will give a positive Clinitest. However , with proper lagering with real lager yeast, you can reduce tri-saccharide concentration and you can follow the progress of lagering with Clinitest. The rate will be of a declining exponential one. Using more drops of beer will allow you to follow these low values. You just have to divide the % glucose results by the ratio of the number of drops you use divided by 5. So if you use 10 drops and you get 1/4 % on the 5 drop chart, you would actually have1/8%. The fact that you can get to 0% reading indicates that Clinitest does not respond to anything that is unfermentable. Keep on Brewin', Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:28:29 -0500 From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net> Subject: Wy3822 Brewsters: What follows is my trail of discovery: Chris Hart wonders about where to start with a seasonal ( Sept to Dec) yeast produced by Wyeast and asks for suggestions and a recipe. According to Wyeast: 3822 Dutch Castle Yeast. Spicy, phenolic and tart in the nose. Very tart and dry on the palate. Phenols and esters well balanced, with a very dry and complex finish. High acid producer. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation 74-79 percent (65-80 deg F, 18-27 deg C) Check out the Wyeast descriptions at http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm And while you are there check out the mixed strains ala my discussions with Fred Johnson. As far as a recipe goes, I'd try it in a wheat beer using a Berliner Weiss formula and maybe as a Belgian Ale to begin with. Think in terms of Munich malt and lots of dark ( 60 L) Caramel ( crystal) malt and use a warm fermentation like for the Belgian Strong Dark Ales, Chimay and the like . >From the name alone, I'd use lager/pale malt using a high mash temperature but the other characteristics, esp the complex finish with phenols and esters screams Belgian. The acids and phenols make me want to try it in Berlinerweiss. Hmmmm, on thinking a little more about this, the fact that this is distributed from September to December may give a clue. Samiclaus Take a look at the Maltose Falcons' version of Samiclaus ( although they don't suggest Wy3822) as a fer example, this recipe fits my general feeling above: http://www.maltosefalcons.com/recipes/19991201.html I tried to copy this here but the format didn't agree with the HBD format. So you will have to check it out. No idea why it is called "<Dutch> Castle". Anyone? Then I tried to look up "Dutch Castle" and guess what I found: Last year about this time such was the subject on HBD: - ------------------------- From: Nick Dempsey <npdempse at midway.uchicago.edu> Subject: Wyeast Dutch Castle Yeast > > I'm going to try the seasonal Wyeast 3822 Dutch Castle > yeast and am trying to figure out an appropriate > recipe. Evidently this yeast was used for a beer > called Castille, and is a Belgian style with a higher > lactic acid production for tartness. I am unfamiliar > with Castille. Does anyone have any info on this? Or > tried this yeast? Any feedback is > appreciated...Thanks! > WRT the original beer--might you be referring to Kasteel? I've had their Donker, and quite enjoyed it. My and others' impressions at http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/Beer/ShowBeer.asp?BeerID=5205 - ------------------------ And DRB did a little more investigation with these clues Check out: http://www.kentw.uklinux.net/belgium_strength.htm beer tastings Name: Kasteel Triple Strength: 11 percent Rating: Average Description:This white beer competes well with Germen Weissbeer. If you like Weissbeer, then try this, otherwise stay away from it. The taste is dull with an bitter aftertaste. Name: Kasteel Donker Strength: 11 percent Rating: Very Good Description:A great dark brown sweet beer with a bitter aftertaste, which makes the experience complete. I need to drink some more to verify this, I think... - ------------------------------- I'll bet it is the same yeast and I'm two for two. Now why not Belgian instead of Dutch castle? We'll leave that question for the reader. {*^) Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
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