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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Oh, So Hot!! ("Phil Yates")
  RE: over attenuation (Steven Parfitt)
  Super-High Gravity Beer (Matt Simpson)
  sulfur (forwarded from AJ deLang) ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  Re: Stainless steel scouring pads in boil - safe? ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: plate heat exchangers ("Martin Brungard")


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:20:22 +1100
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Oh, So Hot!!

Now I know at this time of year in the USA, it's awfully hard to imagine
that your southern Oz pals are really cookin. But today, we're really really
cookin!

This is very thirsty weather and it got me thinking that somewhere in my
beer education, I must have missed something. We've talked about "lawn
mower" beers for many years but I never bothered to ask what such a thing
was. Is it supposed to be light in alcohol, so you can scoff down six or
seven in as many minutes (and not fall off the ride on mower)?

Is it supposed to be light in colour and flavour?

Or is it supposed to be a heavy duty number to knock the wife right out so
she forgets to ask you to mow the lawn tomorrow?

Also, living here on 100 acres, we've got an awful lot of grass to keep
down. How many lawn mower beers am I entitled to drink after mowing/slashing
100 acres? Actually, the cattle help me here a lot, but let's not include
them in the equation.

Phil



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 05:35:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: over attenuation

steve  is expereiencing over-attenuation and is
looking for a post-ferment correction.  

>Lately I have had a couple of batches that have 
>overattennuated. Most recently a Kolsch dropped down 
>to 1.005. It tastes a little drier than I would like.

>I wonder if it would be a good idea to make up a 
>small amount of a high gravity solution to add to the
>beer to add a little sweetness. Perhaps DME or 
>candi sugar. Has anyone tried anything like this to
>fix this problem?
>Thanks,
>Steve in Arkansas

If you add a fermentable to your finished beer and
there is any yeast left in it (a real high
probability) it will just continue to ferment back to
the low TG.

The solution is to add something that won't ferment.

Lactose or Malto-Dextrine might add body without much
sweetness.

For sweetness you might use an artificial sweetner. I
don't tolerate Aspertame, so I go for Splenda. I just
'adjusted' a batch of porter that was out of balance
between bitter and sweetness by adding 1/4 cup of
Splenda (sucralose?) to the 5 gallon batch. About half
of the Splenda is actually sugar and will ferment, but
the remainder gave just a hint of sweetness that
helped the beer a lot.

Steven


		


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:48:36 -0500
From: Matt Simpson <simpsonmatt at gmail.com>
Subject: Super-High Gravity Beer

All,

I brewed roughly 8 gallons of barleywine last weekend and was hoping to
"kick it up a notch," by stepping some of my batch. I'e., I'd like to take
one of the carboys (the lesser filled - about 2 gallons) and once it's finished
fermenting in the primary, add a high gravity, hopped wort and repitch with
 White Labs 099 (Ultra High Gravity Ale Yeast) that I'll get as slurry 
from a barleywine we're producing at the brewpub in which I work.

I assume that with sufficient amount of yeast (about 2 cups), proper 
aeration of the new wort and enough time, I should be able to get up to
18-20% a.b.v., after about two step-ups. The WLP099 remains viable
in environments of up to 25% a.b.v., so its survival won't be an issue. 
Would some nutrients help this process along as well? Any input on 
the process from those who've attempted will be appreciated. Thanks!

Matt Simpson
media at thebeercellar dot com
www dot thebeercellar dot com


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:47:54 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: sulfur (forwarded from AJ deLang)

AJ is having trouble posting to the HBD, so he asked me to forward his 
post below:

No, I'm talking about what's called the "sulfitic" note (0710 in 
Mielgard's classification) which, when concentrated enough, smells like 
burning matches but as with most flavorants the impression is much more 
nuanced when dilute at the 12-13 ppm levels found in  German beers. To 
get a handle on it you might try taking an American megabrew like 
Budwiser and then adding a solution made from a Campden tablet a wee bit 
at a time until you can detect it. This isn't going to be quite what 
we're talking about because the sulfite will hardly have had a chance to 
meld with the other flavors in the beer but it should give you the 
general idea. Probably the best thing to do would be to sit down with an 
experienced taster and sample several beers with varying degrees of this 
character and have him point out to you which ones are more or less 
sulfury. I am definitely not talking about the lightstruck mercaptan 
"skunkiness" (0724) nor am I talking about the corn-like flavors/aromas 
of DMS (0732) nor rotting yeast (0725) nor any of the other 
sulfur-related smells. Some of the descriptions in today's HBD may be of 
some help but I really think having some one point it out to you in a 
beer you are tasting would be the best way to get a handle on it.

Another point to consider is that sulfites aren't a product of poor 
storage conditions - they are a product of normal fermentation. Much of 
the sulfite escapes and much combines with other substances in the beer 
(and in so doing keeps it in the reduced state which helps it stay fresh 
longer) during lagering. But a detectable amount remains in many 
European lagers.

Cheers, A.J.

BTW I did respond to a previous post but HBD doesn't seem to want to 
hear from me these days so the post never appeared. I'll stick that on here:

Repost - didn't go through first time:


Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> <>
> Are you talking about the European continent? I haven't noticed
> significant levels of sulphur dioxide amongst the beers I've had
> there. I also don't think anybody would want that kind of smell with
> any beer.
>
> Is it possible that this is a problem of beers exported to the USA?
>
I would hope that the continental lagers I buy would have this 
"problem". Remember that sulfite protects beer from oxidation just as it 
protects wine though brewers don't usually add (except see below) it 
because the yeast do that for us. According to HBS&Y "German Premium" 
beers contain 0 - 12.6 mg/L of SO2. My own pilsners usually contain 12 - 
13 when they are ready to drink. At these levels you can definitely 
taste it and it is definitely a part of the continental pils profile 
(though I must say that it is rare that a contest scoresheet recognizes 
this) but it certainly shouldn't be in your face. The beer shouldn't 
smell like burnt matches any more than it should smell like a movie 
theatre lobby but notes from chemicals which do smell, respectively, 
like sulfur dioxide and diacetyl, should be present  (the latter in 
Bohemian pils at least).

Not to lose sight of the original post - if the beer continues to reek 
of sulfide or sulfite after 3 month's lagering then there is a problem - 
probably with infection. If the sulfidic smells pass and the sulfitic 
get down to the 10 mg/L level then all is normal. If the brewer doesn't 
like the sulfur note he shouldn't brew this style or should try a yeast 
strain which produces less sulfite.

Interestingly enough in checking HBS&Y for the typical level numbers I 
found that they list "British Fined Draught Beer" at 30 mg/L and British 
Ales and Lagers at 20. The ales I have made usually measure more like 
2.5 - 3 mg/L. Another interesting tidbit from HBS&Y: UK brewers are 
permitted to add up to 70 mg/L sulfites to their beers. Perhaps this 
explains the high levels reported for these products. AFAIK the ale 
strains do not produce as much as the lager strains and my personal 
experience has been consitent with this.

A.J.





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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:23:27 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Stainless steel scouring pads in boil - safe?

> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:26:32 +1100
> From: <relliott at senet.com.au>
> Subject: Stainless steel scouring pads in boil - safe?
> 
> 
> 2. Would it be safe to use a stainless
> steel scouring pad pushed on the
> outlet pipe, inside the boiler for the
> duration  of the entire boil? This
> would be to prevent any hops, trub
> etc getting into the coolingsystem. 
> Would it contribute to any off-tastes
> in the finished beer?
> 

Assuming you aren't talking about the pre-soaped kind... ;-)

I have not experienced any off-tastes from using a s/s scrubbie in the
boiler. I tried it on a few batches wrapped around my Bazooka screen to
see if it improved flow. Can't say that it did, so I stopped doing that.
Curiously the last few batches have drained very well through the
Bazooka, even though I still have a lot of break gunk in there. I think
stopping the practice of whirlpooling helped, because my Bazooka sits in
the center. Perhaps that qualifies as a Duh!. Now I just quietly leave
it alone to settle out where it may, and it seems to help. I'm sure
Zymie is feeling vindicated at the moment.

Cheers
Brian, in Winterpeg (yes, they are using the B-word again today)



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:44:51 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: plate heat exchangers

Will had some questions about plate heat exchangers.  He wants to build his 
own plate exchanger press.

This could be an interesting and personally fulfilling project, but it could 
also be a big chore.  I do hope that someone has some plans for a similar 
project that they can share.  In the mean time, I can tell you about my 
findings with brazed plate exchangers like the Therminator.

I did a good bit of research about brazed plate exchangers like the 
Therminator.  These are very common pieces of equipment in the industrial 
and food industries.  They are available in a variety of sizes and plate 
counts.  There are several manufacturers who produce these units.

The thing that may not be apparent from the Therminator literature is that 
their unit is one of the small sized exchangers, but it has a fairly high 
plate count.  Most manufacturer's off-the-shelf exchangers have much fewer 
plates.  The Therminator therefore has a pretty high efficiency rating (read 
heat removal rate).

The other thing that has impressed me with the unit is that the head loss 
through both the wort and water circuits is very low.  You can pump a good 
bit of fluid through this unit.  I suppose this could make a significant 
difference if you make larger batches and also have a pump.  It can make the 
chilling period much quicker.  If the wort flow is only by gravity flow, it 
may not make such a difference since there could be other factors that limit 
the wort flow rate through the chiller.

Concerning the accumulation of crud in a brazed plate chiller, I don't think 
that this is going to have high probability since the passages seem to be 
fairly wide.  I use a gooseneck siphon in the brew pot to limit the size of 
particles I pump through the chiller.  You can see a photo of such a unit 
at:

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20020429190941604

The slotted intakes in this siphon unit keep large stuff out.  That is the 
material I think could pose the most hazard to plate chiller.  The other 
technique that the manufacturer recommends, is for you the flush the wort 
circuit with a reverse flow of clean water.  That really should make it very 
unlikely that things will build up.  The other good thing is that the 
chiller is stainless.  That means you can hit it with some pretty aggressive 
cleaners like acids and caustics (preferably not at the same time ;-0).  
That makes it more likely that trapped organics can be removed if they ever 
happened to lodge there.

I think that most brewers will find that a brazed plate heat exchanger will 
perform well for them.  I don't think they provide any more pitfalls for 
contamination than the more common concentric pipe chillers.  Good luck to 
those with a quest to create a plate exchanger press.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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