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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Therminator questions (chris)
  Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: Beer Prevents Cancer, Yeast Origin (Cindy & Geoff Harrison)
  Re: we don' need no steenking blowoff ("Doug Moyer")
  RE:Therminator questions ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers ("Dave Burley")
  Cincinnati Cream Ale (National Midnight Star Brewery)
  Blow off ("Dan Listermann")
  Subscription Probe Notes ("Pat Babcock")
  Counterflow 101 (pacman)
  Siebel Advanced Homebrewing program ("Keith Lemcke")
  Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Groggy bottle bombs ("Dave Burley")
  First time racking - carbonation question. (Russell Fifer)


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:50:09 -0600
From: chris at mikk.net
Subject: Re: Therminator questions 


On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 06:08:49 -0800 , Dion Hollenbeck writes:
> 1)  Instructions for cleaning/sanitizing say immerse in a bucket of liquid, 
> turn the fittings up and rock back and forth to expel any trapped air.  If 
> there is trapped air, does this imply that there are dead zones?

Nope, just concavities.  The plates are stamped with
a pattern of ridges to induce turbulence at low flow
speed, and that can trap air bubbles, but are flushed
when water/wort is flowing through them.
 
> 3)  Does anyone happen to know the configuration of the plates and the 
> holes that allow the wort and water to flow?

There's a good schematic of the gasketed style of heat
exchanger at:

	http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/deicon/plate.html

In a brazed heat exchanger, the gaskets are replaced by
stamped portions of the plate itself, and/or the brazing
material.  The best diagram of one of these I've seen is at:

	http://tinyurl.com/5mk46

(or hunt around http://www.apiheattransfer.com/ if
tinyurl has expired this).

The Therminator apparently contains two of these stacks
of plates back-to-back, to allow the outlet to be directly
on the other side of the plate from the inlet.   If you
look into the item through one of the fittings, you'll
notice you only see halfway through.
 
> 4)  Has anyone had any trouble with back flushing and stuff staying in?
 
Not yet.  I have noticed that it takes quite a bit
of rocking and shaking to get all audible liquid out
of it when I'm emptying it out for storage, though.
That worries me a bit, so I'm extra thorough when
backflushing it, and rotate, rock, and shake the
device during the backflush to make sure there's no
gunk hiding under an air bubble or the like.

- -- 
Chris Mikkelson  | Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
chris at mikk.net   | 


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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:53:38 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers

On Friday, 21 January 2005 at  8:54:47 -0500, Dave Burley wrote:
> Brewsters:
>
> Groggy Greg made some bottle bombs and asks what to do.
>
> I remember those wonderful days in the late 60s when homebrew was
> illegal, homebrewing books and yeast were non-existent a friend of
> mine make a whole bunch of bottle bombs.  These began to explode
> late at night as he got home from the lab ( and probably a stop off
> at a local dive).  He donned a pair of heavy asbestos glass blowing
> gloves, a face shield and put his heavy wool Navy pea coat on
> backwards.  Popping the tops of these warm bottles caused foam to go
> as high as the house. So these boys can be dangerous. Don't mess
> around.

Heh.  Yes, I did consider the dangers before I went ahead.  In my days
as a chemist I did many more dangerous things that than (lung full of
hydrogen chloride gas?  Yes, you can survive, but you don't want to
try).

> Chilling the beer to near freezing is the first step after donning
> appropriate safety gear. Then place in a carboy and referment.  You
> may have to add a yeast nutrient to get it to kick off.

I calculated that the excess carbonation would not be enough to blow
up the heavy re-usable bottles that I chose.  When I found what
happened, I did exactly what you did: I dropped the temperature to
0.5&degree;.  My intention was to find a temperature at which I could
just pop the lids and allow the gas concentration to reach equilibrium
with the surroundings, and then seal the bottles again.

Unfortunately, while waiting, I discovered that by itself, the
solubility of carbon dioxide, even just above freezing, isn't
sufficient to ensure adequate carbonation at higher temperatures.  So
after a day or so at this temperature, I tried out another bottle,
just to see how it would be.

It was flat.

So I took another bottle out of the cold fridge and put it into a
fridge at normal temperatures.  Left it there for a day and poured it
into a glass about 20 minutes ago.  It's on the low side of being
carbonated.  I measured the refractive index, and it's back to where
it was before priming. 

So, what happened?  Only one of three bottles was overcarbonated.  I
bulk prime, so it's unlikely to be a matter of (such) uneven priming.
I can see a number of possibilities:

1.  The first bottle was a freak.
2.  Maybe all my beer would be  so foamy if I were to open a bottle at
    22&degrees;, and there's nothing unusual.
3.  Priming is continuing slowly, and the bombs are just coming up to
    maturity.

I think there's a bit of all of them in there.  I've put the first
bottle (less the ~5% that I lost) into the fridge to see what will
happen.  I've also taken a second bottle out of the cold fridge and
put it back at room temperature to see if it will happen again.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:40:00 -0500
From: Cindy & Geoff Harrison <gharriso at up.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Prevents Cancer, Yeast Origin

There are well over a dozen studies over the past 30 years which show that
moderate consumption of alcohol, defined as one or two alcohol equivalents
per day for men, one per day for women, is overall good for us; those who
drink moderately live longer than those who drink more, or less. Three
drinks a day for men and two for women is the break even point. There have
been close to a dozen theories to try and explain the beneficial effects;
the two which come to mind are anti-oxidants found especially in dark beer
and red wine, and an insulin sensitizing effect.

>From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: link of the week - beer prevents cancer?
>http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6895
>
>Some cancers are caused by heterocyclic amines, DNA-damaging chemicals 
>found in cooked meat and fish. When Sakae Arimoto-Kobayashi's team at 
>Okayama University in Japan fed these chemicals to mice, the DNA damage 
>to their liver, lungs and kidneys was reduced by up to 85% if the mice 
>drank non-alcoholic beer instead of water.
<snip>
>
>Heavy alcohol consumption is blamed for around 6% of all cancers in 
>western countries (New Scientist print edition, 18 December 2004), 
>though moderate consumption reduces the risk of heart disease. Since the 
>mice drank non-alcoholic beer, the findings do not show whether moderate 
>consumption of normal beer has any anti-cancer benefits. "The total 
>benefits and risks of beer with alcohol are still under consideration," 
>says Arimoto-Kobayashi.

Regarding yeast origins, Chico: I recall this question from the murky
recesses of my fallible brain; the gist is that the top cropping nature of
a company's proprietary "Chico" yeast depends on when they got their
sample. I haven't toured Sierra Nevada, but I suspect that the original
yeast was a top cropper, but as the brewery grew, they selected more and
more for a "low floater", bottom fermenting ale yeast. So, if YCK got their
sample early on, theirs would remain a top cropper while, if White Labs
obtained their sample later, theirs would be a sinker. Other yeast
characteristics could have genetically drifted, to some extent, as well,
especially if SN does their own yeast banking and/or selected for different
properties.

On the same thread, I toured several English breweries way back in 1978.
Marstons was still using mostly Burton Unions, Samual Smiths used top
cropping Welsh Squares, but Greene King had selected against top cropping
yeast, was shifting over to cylindro-conical fermenters. They mentioned a
scale, which I haven't heard of since, 1 to 4, with (I think) 4 being a
total top cropper and 1 being a bottom fermenter.

Cheers,
Geoff Harrison
KRAEUSENERS
The Harrisons
1120 E. 7th Ave.
Houghton, MI
49931


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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:33:07 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: we don' need no steenking blowoff

JonO wrote:
> I realize blowoff tubes are sometimes useful, but what's the deal,
> seriously? Some talk about them as an "of course" and "obviously you lose
> a little to blow off"-- as if inviting that brew to commit felo-de-se into
> a bucket or mason jar of water is a natural proposition. You know, some
> folks consider spilling booze a sin...

My primary fermentator is a 6.5 gallon carboy (which holds just over 7
gallons to the top of the neck) with (typically) 5.5 gallons of beer. I
ferment at 65 to 70 degrees F. Almost every time I have blow off. If I tried
it with just an airlock, it would clog, build up pressure and spray foam all
over my wire shelves of beer glasses. I know this from experience. A blow
off tube is absolutely required.

Use a 6 gallon carboy for a primary? I don't think so! (A 6 gallon carboy
actually holds 6 gallons and 1 pint. Whereas a 5 gallon carboy is almost
nuts on 5 gallons.)



Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org

Shzabrau Homebrewery: http://users.adelphia.net/~shyzaboy/homebrewery.html




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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:36:41 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:Therminator questions

Dion,

I have been using a Therminator now since August and have been very pleased 
by the performance.  If you can place your kettle high enough then you don't 
even need a pump since the Therminator seems to have a very low internal 
resistance. However I use a pump so I can't tell you an optimal gravity fed 
configuration.

I have never had any problem with a tiny bit of Iodopher solution that may 
have ended up in the chiller after immersing the unit in a bucket of the 
solution during the brew day. I could never get all of it out and could hear 
it slosh now matter how I turned it to try to drain it. I have not had a bad 
batch with it yet.

I can't really answer about the dead zones but I did notice a few things. I 
attach my showerhead hose to the wort in/out openings and determined the 
fastest way to flush any hop sludge and coldbreak out was by bumping the 
flushing water on and off several times, switching the direction of the flow 
and repeating till only clear water runs. However as mentioned, it seems 
impossible to drain it completely and I don't want water sitting in there 
between brewdays and getting funked up. My wife told me to roll up kitchen 
towels and to stuff them in the holes to wick out the remaining water. After 
about 3 kitchen towels the unit seems dry and no more gurgling noises are 
heard.

Cheers,
Marty
PS Am in no way affiliated with Therminator, only a happy cusotmer, etc...




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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:25:15 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers

Greg,

Refractive index is not a measure of sugar in a complex beverage like beer, 
esp if you have maltodextrins. As a chemist, you will now realize this.You're 
not alone, as a famous HB author - bless his soul - also made the same mistake 
a few years ago.

 I suggest you try Clinitest kit to see if you really have sugar in excess.

You can also use Clinitest to determine how much sugar you have to add to get 
the desired carbonation.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 




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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:29:50 -0500
From: National Midnight Star Brewery <nmstarbrewery at charter.net>
Subject: Cincinnati Cream Ale

As I take a break while the pretzel dough rises (Thanks Jeff!!), I 
figure this is a great time to ask for some help.

I helped a member of our homebrew club dry hop his first ever beer last 
night and got to talking with his aging father.  Strictly a 
"Budmilloors" drinker, he waxed poetic about the Cincinnati Cream Ale 
(from Canada he remarked) he enjoyed while dating his girlfriend (now 
wife) in 1951.  I went through the motions about what a cream ale is and 
informed him that the Frankenmuth Brewery has a really decent cream ale 
that is probably more to the historic flavor than any current commercial 
cream ale.  You could see the hope in his eyes as he and his son made 
plans to go there the next afternoon.  That led into him asking his son 
if he could make it as he really wanted to pass some around to his 
woodcarvers group so they could reminisce about the old days.

One of my favorite beers is a CAP and I know how to make a cream ale 
along those lines.  I am wondering if anyone has insight into the 1951 
Cinci cream ale so I can "customize" a recipe for the son to make?  I 
see the July 2002 Brew Your Own has a recipe but I do not have that 
issue.  Any help is appreciated, include a wise choice for yeast.

Thanks again to all and you are right Jeff, the lye and salt is what 
makes it.

William Menzl
Midland, Michigan
National Midnight Star Brewery
As yet un-named homebrew club



 


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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:19:38 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Blow off

From: Matt Wallace <dubious.chewy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: we don' need no steenking blowoff

<alas, I for one primary and secondary in 5 gallon carboys, so you
better believe I lose a little to blowoff....but it's true that every
time I can't help but feel that I'm sinning.  Maybe it's time to spend
twenty bucks.>


We at Listermann Mfg. have recently introduced "Phil's Burton Union" which 
recycles collapsed blow off foam back into the fermenter.  It is a gallon 
jug that sits on your table above the carboy.  The jug has two holes in its 
side.  The upper hole is connected to a large hose in the carboy's stopper. 
The other is a smaller hose that drains the jug back into the carboy by way 
of a dip tube in the stopper.  The foam goes up the larger hose and dumps 
into the jug where it collapses to liquid which runs down the drain hose 
back into the carboy.  You can ferment five gallons in a five gallon carboy 
with minimal beer loss while retaining most of the coagulated albumens in 
the jug.  The jug is fitted with its own blow off in the infrequent case 
that it is overwhelmed.

Dan Listermann






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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:58:42 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Subscription Probe Notes 

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Probe note number one: If you wish to continue receiving the HBD, be sure your 
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top of this email, somewhere areound the table of contents. That's the header. 
You should read it.)

 -p






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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:08:20 -0700
From: pacman at edwardwadsworth.com
Subject: Counterflow 101

I just finished construction of a counterflow chiller.  After a bit of online
research and a few trips to the hardware store.  I recently came across a
couple websites of feller's who use or have used counterflow chillers who claim
that cleaning them is virtually impossible.  Who all, of you all, uses a
counterflow chiller, without incident  (read: infection) and what are your
cleaning and storage methods?


Parker
Portland,OR


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This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



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Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:08:26 -1000
From: "Keith Lemcke" <klemcke at siebelinstitute.com>
Subject: Siebel Advanced Homebrewing program

We have been getting a lot on inquiries about our Advanced Homebrewing
program coming up in Durango, Colorado, especially regarding when to reserve
space. While the class does not begin until July 25th, we do anticipate that
the 30 seats in this year's program will sell out. If you have any questions
about the program or about registration, please contact me as soon as
possible at klemcke at siebelinstitute.com.

Keith Lemcke
Siebel Institute of Technology



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Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:09:41 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers

On Saturday, 22 January 2005 at 13:25:15 -0500, Dave Burley wrote:

> Refractive index is not a measure of sugar in a complex beverage
> like beer, esp if you have maltodextrins.

Indeed.  That's very clear when you brew my kind of beer.  I wasn't
suggesting it was, but it is influenced by the sugars, even after
fermentation has completed.  If I add my standard 9 g/l of sugar, the
Brix/Plato go up by 0.9%, but the refractive index shows an increase
of about 0.6.

> As a chemist, you will now realize this.You're not alone, as a
> famous HB author - bless his soul - also made the same mistake a few
> years ago.

I didn't make any mistake (well, apart from bottling bombs :-).  I
have a refractometer, and it shows differences based on sugar.  It
would be a mistake to assume that the values still indicate sugar
content after fermentation, but I wasn't doing that.

> I suggest you try Clinitest kit to see if you really have sugar in
> excess.
>
> You can also use Clinitest to determine how much sugar you have to add to
> get the desired carbonation.

This is reasonable.  I might do so.  But that doesn't change the
validity of using a refractometer wisely to detect changes in the
sugar concentration.

For those who are interested, BTW, it looks as if this was all a false
alarm.  The bottles probably weren't (significantly) overprimed.  I
just made the mistake of opening the bottle when it was really hot.
My imagination did the rest.  I drank the remainder of the
"overprimed" bottle today, and it was only marginally more strongly
primed than what I aim for (which is fairly gassy, as some people will
have noticed from the values above).  It looks as if, for whatever
reason, this brew really did have a lot of unfermentable content.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:04:09 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Groggy bottle bombs

Greg,

I'm glad it all worked out.

> I have a refractometer, and it shows differences based on sugar.

I agree you can determine the DIFFERENCE in <added> sugar with a 
refractometer. But it cannot be used as an absolute measure, which was my 
point. The same problem, of course, exists with trying to use a hydrometer ( 
assuming you can get all the bubbles off!)  to measure specific gravity, 
despite what you may have read thousands of times.  With these multicomponent 
systems like beer, there is no unique answer with refractometry ( which is a 
surrogate way of measuring specific gravity)  nor by directly measuring the 
specifc gravity, whether by hydrometer or a pyncnometer.

> It looks as if, for whatever
>reason, this brew really did have a lot of unfermentable content

You need to measure sugar directly which avoids the interference of other 
dissolved, but unfermentable, substances, which is what Clinitest does.

I can make another suggestion and that is to not use  the dreaded bottling 
bucket with its imperfect mixing, but to add a measured amount of sugar to 
each bottle in the form of a boiled dilute syrup onto which you add your beer. 
I use a pipette to do this quickly. This will avoid just the kind of problem 
you may have with large variations in condition of the bottles. You also avoid 
excessive oxidation of your beer by only transferring it once and you don't 
have to wash that bucket twice.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:00:15 -0500
From: Russell Fifer <russell.fifer at gmail.com>
Subject: First time racking - carbonation question.

Hello all,
I've just turned a refrig into a kegarator.  Since I'm used to bottle
conditioning, I've been told and read that there are a few ways to
caronate my cornelius keg.  I chose for the safest way, and have had
my CO2 on 10 lbs. for a week.  I get a nice head, but not much
carbonation in the beer itself.  Should I just wait it out, or crank
up the CO2 for a specific time.  Any help would be appreciated.  I'm
making a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone and the frig is about 38-40
degrees.  Thanks in advance.
Russell.Fifer at gmail.com


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