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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  link of the week - beer prevents cancer? (Bob Devine)
  Re: we don' need no steenking blowoff (Matt Wallace)
  re: used bourbon barrels (Chet Nunan)
  RE: Used once bourbon barrels (eIS\) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
  david.houseman@verizon.net ("Todd Snyder")
  Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers ("Dave Burley")
  Therminator questions (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Yeast Origin (Randy Ricchi)
  beer@ice I ("Dr. Pivo")
  beer@ice II ("Dr. Pivo")
  Used Bourbon Barrels (Joe Yoder)
  Re: Used Bourbon Barrels ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Kirin Hops (FLJohnson)
  WL American Hefe - long primary ferment? (robert.jones.web)


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:40:33 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: link of the week - beer prevents cancer?

This isn't directly related to homebrewing, but I
thought it sufficiently interesting.

Bob Devine

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6895

Some cancers are caused by heterocyclic amines, DNA-damaging chemicals 
found in cooked meat and fish. When Sakae Arimoto-Kobayashi's team at 
Okayama University in Japan fed these chemicals to mice, the DNA damage 
to their liver, lungs and kidneys was reduced by up to 85% if the mice 
drank non-alcoholic beer instead of water.

Arimoto-Kobayashi thinks as-yet unidentified compounds in lager and 
stout prevent the amines binding to and damaging DNA. If these compounds 
can be identified, brewers might be able to produce beers particularly 
rich in them, or they could be added to foods.

Heavy alcohol consumption is blamed for around 6% of all cancers in 
western countries (New Scientist print edition, 18 December 2004), 
though moderate consumption reduces the risk of heart disease. Since the 
mice drank non-alcoholic beer, the findings do not show whether moderate 
consumption of normal beer has any anti-cancer benefits. "The total 
benefits and risks of beer with alcohol are still under consideration," 
says Arimoto-Kobayashi.


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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:30:19 -0800
From: Matt Wallace <dubious.chewy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: we don' need no steenking blowoff

JonO wrote:
> I realize blowoff tubes are sometimes useful, but what's the deal,
> seriously? Some talk about them as an "of course" and "obviously you lose
> a little to blow off"-- as if inviting that brew to commit felo-de-se into
> a bucket or mason jar of water is a natural proposition. You know, some
> folks consider spilling booze a sin...

alas, I for one primary and secondary in 5 gallon carboys, so you
better believe I lose a little to blowoff....but it's true that every
time I can't help but feel that I'm sinning.  Maybe it's time to spend
twenty bucks.

Matt Wallace,
Portland


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 04:37:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: used bourbon barrels

David, have you tried Kelvin Cooperage?

http://www.kelvincooperage.com/usedbarrels.htm


		


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:21:55 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve \(eIS\) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Used once bourbon barrels

Dave Houseman asked about where to get once used bourbon barrels.

Our club bought one last June from Kentucky Barrels
(http://www.kentuckybarrels.com/wholebarrels.html) in Danville Kentucky.
Since we are only a couple of hours away, we drove up and picked ours
up, but they will ship it to you. We also wanted to pick our our own,
but any of the dozen or so we looked at would have worked. We chose the
#514 Select barrel, and it works fine. We've had our barleywine in the
barrel for about 6 months now and even though there have been a few
minor leaks now and then, they tend to seal themselves and we've only
lost a few quarts (out of 50 gallons) along the way.

It's quite incredible how the barleywine changes from month to month.
Every month I put about 1.5 liters in a 2L PET bottle and force
carbonate it to take to the meeting. It began with a strong bourbon
character, then evolved toward strong oakey/tannin character, and now it
is more balanced between the two, with bourbon notes coming back into
the forefront. Ours is a solera style barleywine, and we've removed
about 5 gallons over the last 6 months and replaced it with fresh
barleywine (after a few months in secondary).

I'd highly recommend such a project for any club so inclined. 53 gallons
is a lot of brew for an individual (or 2 or 3). 

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR





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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:38:30 -0500
From: "Todd Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: david.houseman at verizon.net


<<<<Our hb club would like to purchase a once used bourbon barrel.  It looks
like the sites on the web that we've found require bulk purchase of many
barrels.  If someone has a link to a site that sells single barrels of
used-once, select barrels please send us the URL or post on HBD.

Thanks,

Dave Houseman>>>>>


Hi Dave, 

Niagara Traditions in Buffalo has some 55 gallon barrels for sale, just got
them in.  716-877-8767 They still have a quart or so of whiskey in them to
prevent spoilage and they seemed really reasonably priced too. No
affiliation, just a satisfied customer.  

Aren't you in downstate NY or PA towards the city?  If I got one to the
Binghamton area for you would that be close enough?  I have family down
there. 

Todd in Buffalo, NY





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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:54:47 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Groggy bottle bombs, French Beers

Brewsters:

Groggy Greg made some bottle bombs and asks what to do.

I remember those wonderful days in the late 60s  when homebrew was illegal, 
homebrewing books and yeast were non-existent a friend of mine make a whole 
bunch of bottle bombs.  These began to explode late at night as he got home 
from the lab ( and probably a stop off at a local dive).  He donned a pair of 
heavy asbestos glass blowing gloves, a face shield and put his heavy wool Navy 
pea coat on backwards.   Popping the tops of these warm bottles caused foam to 
go as high as the house. So these boys can be dangerous. Don't mess around.

Chilling the beer to near freezing is the first step after donning appropriate 
safety gear. Then place in a carboy and referment.  You may have to add a 
yeast nutrient to get it to kick off.
- ----------------
Ton Viemont asks about drinking beer in France. Unless you can find Belgian 
beers don't bother.  However, with the new EU, Inter-country shipping is now 
much easier so you may find some good German beers, but I can never recall 
getting a good French beer.

Probably explains why they drink wine. But then not all French wine is that 
good either.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley





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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 06:08:49 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at woodsprite.com>
Subject: Therminator questions

Having just purchased a therminator, and having read the owner's manual, I 
have some concerns and was hoping that people have had enough experience 
with theirs to have found out.

1)  Instructions for cleaning/sanitizing say immerse in a bucket of liquid, 
turn the fittings up and rock back and forth to expel any trapped air.  If 
there is trapped air, does this imply that there are dead zones?

2)  To me, dead zones imply that if you leave rinse water in, you will not 
really know when you are getting pure wort out when it first starts 
running.  In a tube-in-a-tube CF chiller there are no dead zones and when 
wort starts coming out, it is "pure", at least if I let the first cup be 
discarded.

3)  Does anyone happen to know the configuration of the plates and the 
holes that allow the wort and water to flow?

4)  Has anyone had any trouble with back flushing and stuff staying in?

thanks,
dion

- --
Dion Hollenbeck
Email: hollen at woodsprite.com    Home Page: http://www.woodsprite.com
Brewing Page: http://hbd.org/hollen   Toys: 98 4Runner, 86 4x4 PU



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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:19:32 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Re: Yeast Origin

Jeff Renner wrote:
>Dan McConnell's Yeast Culture Kit Co.'s version of this formed a
>distinctive yeast head, as did the original Ballantine yeast, the
>putative source of this strain.  I haven't noticed this with Wyeast
>or WhiteLabs, but I can't remember which one.

Jeff, I'm glad you brought that up. I remember that nice, greasy looking

yeast cap from YCKCo's American ale yeast.  That cap would sit there
forever after primary was done. You had to scoop it off the top.
Because that yeast was referred to as "American" (or was it California,
or Chico?) I got in the habit of thinking it was the same yeast as
Wyeast 1056.  After YCKCo yeast became unavailable I would use the
Wyeast 1056 and wonder why it wasn't top-cropping. I remember wondering
if it had mutated.


Jeff also laments:
>Damn, I miss YCKCo.

I second that emotion.



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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:34:21 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: beer at ice I

I have now a couple of years' experience in tasting Thai beers.

It didn't begin in a shy manner. It was at a wedding outside of Udan
Thani. After all the celebrations, in the middle of the night, I was
quite sure that some thieves were invading the place. UP!  I went, and
dashed out to find a score of old women cleaning up at pre-dawn.

Now, it is true that labour is cheap here and that is why you can employ
hordes of people to clean your house at pre-dawn.

It is also true that the Thai people are very faithful in their
religious practices, whether they be Buddhist or Muslim. Neither group
expects "Fa'l'anger" (foreign barbarians) to come running  out of their
rooms naked in the early hours of the morning... And they seemed not
overly impressed.

Facing the possibility of several felony morality charges for "doing the
helicopter dance", and having a celebration outside of Korat for two
brothers entering their monkhood to attend, I rapidly pushed onward.
Since I do pride myself on being able to keep pace with the beer bottle
and had obviously not managed to do that at the wedding, I started
reading the labels of these beers: "Alcohol content:...let's see
here....IT'S HOW MUCH?!!!!!!!!"

Outside of Korat  (a city whose real name would take the rest of this
page and part of the next to spell... let us keep to the nickname, or my
interpretations of dialect... Actually "koLat" would be better 90 percent
of the time), by a distance of about 30 kilometers, in a very poor
tapioca farming region, the "monk party" was on. It lasted a fews days;
a pig got smashed on the head with something that looked not very
different from an American baseball  bat.

Mountains of coconuts were ground in a clever little machine.  My job
was to keep it from getting stuck full of ground coconut.  This was not
much different than crushing grains. You simply fed the coconut pieces
in the top (no fingers in, please), and manually cleaned the "crush" at
the bottom ... (Gol'lee, these were some WELL tempered grains!!). I
prefer this work to "pig assassinations", and naturally there was beer
(the liquid of life) for the 700 somewhat Thai people (and me) who ate
every scrap of that pig.

I still don't know how one managed to feed 700 people on one pig,  I was
there  the day before when we bought a whole truckload of vegetables,
and drove them in from the city... There was a LOT of old women doing
the shopping for the monk party.

Once their juvenile pre-monk heads were shaved, they were washed  all
over ("ablutions"; I believe the Christians would call it and have, in
fact, the same ceremony in a similar setting). They were then placed
into their apprentice suits... and once the appropriate amount of
chanting and gong thumping by the priest had been done... 

 ...There were 700 people who were planning on spending at least one day
of eating, drinking, and maybe playing music or dancing, but definitely
"consuming". It is, in fact, the host's duty to fully share compassion
with their guest's consideration. As long as you didn't sit on the 20
flats of eggs in the back of the truck on the way home, or let the
drunk, unshaven policeman in the back seat, fall asleep on your
shoulder, whilst snoring  (Now just WHY did he have to go along on this
shopping trip, and how much did HE cost?)  life was sweet.  I know I ate
at least two plates of a mixture of coriander, onions, garlic and
chillies, mixed with a large amount of chopped up, quite recognizable,
small intestine (Did they cook that stuff, or just dip it in the "broth"
barrel?)... on rice.

So I guess we just collectively ate our way through one organ system at
a time. I do remember "meat" at one point. I definitely remember at
least two versions of "skin". "Hair" and "hoof" must have missed my
attention, but then I remembered that after the slaughter, it seemed
like the "Washing and shaving of the pig body" seemed to go on all afternoon.

What was apparent was that this was a place far from an abundance of
refrigerators and freezers. A few 5 watt bulbs hung here and there, but
ice was a bought and sold commodity.

This presented you with a choice on what you should drink with your
intestines... warm beer, or beer  "on the rocks"... or " at  ice", as I
prefer to call it, being fond of neologisms.

Ordinarily, the mere thought of dishonouring the noble amber liquid with
ice would send waves of shivers running up and down my spine.  

Unsuspectingly, much worse waves were to follow within the year.

It turns out, that as the ice melted, the beer actually tasted better!
This was "beer concentrate" made for a non-refrigerator owning
population, I believe.

Standard procedure in the country is, you get your warm bottle of beer
served, a glass, and a plastic bucket full of ice. One then alternately
adds ice or beer to maintain the preferred level of dilution.

I have been in many countries, have tasted what beers were available,
and even tried to document what beers were available where, and what
they tasted like: "Oh!  Here comes his little black book again!" Some
sort of documentation has seemed a good idea, and I have many "little
black books" filled, or half filled with my descriptions.

The point being, they have always been descriptive, and never
quantified, or even in some sense, "judgemental". One can't completely
avoid some sort of judgement when using a purely subjective
organization... but I have never said "this beer is better than that
one".  I have MOST definitely ( to the dissapointment of many frequent
posters here) said many times, something to the tune of: "This beer ,
which I enjoy very much, is produced in a completely different manner
than beers that use the brewing techniques suggested here, which by and
large, produce beers that I find uninteresting to the point of being insipid."

But now, a departure from all of that. I would like to introduce, for
the first time publicly, my very own "ice cube rating system". In other
words how many average size Thai ice cubes it takes to make their beer
most enjoyable.

I should begin by describing the "units of measurement". Glasses rarely
exceed 300 ml in size here (could that be about 7 Wizards of Oz.?... You
Anglicans are still bound to those queerish "weights and measures", hey?)

Ice comes in three varieties.  1) little round tubes, sort of like squid
bodies. 2) large blocks that get hacked by "curved machetes" to "normal
size" (i.e. whatever will fit in a glass) 3) machine "crush" which is
much like, but smaller than "2", and more consistant in size.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:58:18 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: beer at ice II

Now that we have sharply defined that parameter, I present " at ice".

1) Singha Gold.  This follows a tendency I've seen in other Asian
countries, where the better quality product (often named "gold" or
"premium") is actually lower in alcohol content than the commonly
available local product. (as opposed to the Occidental world where
"export", "premium" or "gold" often denote a higher alcohol containing
product). Peculiar to the species is a unique packaging form, and a VERY
limited distribution. I've only found this one in dinky cans, in hotel
mini-bars, or exclusive hotels.

It's really a pity this critter is so hard to find, as it is a darn fine
drop. A hop presence with a little "sting" that  I would even go so far
as to characterize as "North German". Reminds me of "Anchor" of
Singapore, which should not be confused with "Ankir" of Indonesia, which
is also very nice but completely different in style.  There is a
distinct little "corn-like" flavour amongst the sweeter elements, such
as you would find in Mediterranean or Central American lagers.

Rating: 0 ice cubes.

2) Thai Beer.  This one, at 6.5 volume percent (I hope we are in a
agreement that we don't do "weight" anymore... even the Yanks who
continually have to have an "own standard") should probably rate two ice
cubes just to keep you from doing the "helicopter dance", but has a
surprisingly light and sweet flavour, with a hint of honey, such as you
find gracing the background of a Bavarian Pils. Not much in the way of
hops to speak of here. 

Rating: 1 ice cube

3) Singha. As mentioned, Singha is really the only Thai beer with a hop
presence at all, and it does much to support the flavour. The "regular"
higher alcohol Singha is a bit "cloying", however.

Rating: 2 ice cubes

4) Leo. At 5.4 perecnt, this is nearly a "light beer" by Thai standards.
The bare fact that it is less "concentrated" in taste,
makes it pretty acceptable.

Rating: 2 ice cubes

5) Chang.  Cheap and high in alcohol (6.4 percent) makes this a big
seller. Chang means "elephant", and has previously attracted the support
of a Danish multi-conglomurate brewery that produces another "elephant"
beer, This love affair, is however, ended. The word "Carlsberg" is
stricken from all public places. The taste is damn near heading towards
a barley wine.

Rating: 4 ice cubes

6) "Horsey", This one comes sometimes with an English name on the neck
label, sometimes  not. The rest is inscripted in Thai. The real name
escapes me, but the lable has a picture of a horse's head as one would
depict a chess piece.  Patently sour.

Rating: A glass filled with "crush" and a trickle of beer.

7) Kloster. This one has some German brewing direction at the head, and
markets itself as exclusive, and costs as much as or more than the
imports. I am going to be extremely unfair here.  I have only tasted
this one time. But when you have walked through several kilometers of 30
degree heat at night, just to find the bloody thing and it's warm by the
time you get it home. One waits for the thing to chill again in the
fridge, and the kiddies to go to sleep before imbibing, then the thing
smells and tastes like a mixture of cabbage and brussel sprouts... it is
simply not a 'spurment I am willing to repeat.

Rating: keep the beer, I'll just take the ice, please.

8) 04-11-23. Found on the Southwest coast, Singha tapped on this date
(and indeed the whole month of November, it turns out) must have fallen
prey to a late introduction of oxygen in the process, as the taste of
diacetyl (dare I guess 2-3 ppm?) was present. Naturally, I was "blissed
out". Similar dates on the east coast showed not a hint. Beers tapped in
December had accentuated problems, and already began tasting of "old barrel".
Oxidative tastes are mighty tricky things to control.

Rating: 0 ice cubes.

04-12-26

As night fell on this day, the shock, horror, and adrenaline began
waning.  People had moved up towards the hills. Thai people made fires
of palm fronds, dotting the hillside with lights. People were harboured
wherever possible. There was no electricity, or water, and a strange
sort of "boy scout camp" atmosphere of helpfulness prevailed. Strangely,
the genuine fact of what one was doing... looking for friends and family,
or sheltering same, became cloaked in the spirit of an amazing
international constitution of "we are all in this together".

A couple of Hungarian lads were wandering about looking for food for
their family. I did recall that I had some mangosteens lying in the bowl
on the kitchen table, and went in by candle light to fetch them, and
recalled: "There was an 04-11-23 in the fridge, wasn't there?".

"This is for the children.  THIS is for the grownups."

I feel pretty certain it was appreciated, even if they've never heard of
"diacetyl".


Beer Chronicles from the Dark Side

Dr. Pivo 

(*)    <---  That is a picture of me taken from ground level, shinnying
up a scaffolding onto a roof


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:43:04 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: Used Bourbon Barrels

David Housman is looking for used Bourbon Barrels, when the Lawrence 
Brewers Guild purchased a used Bourbon Barrel, they were available at 
the Weston, Missouri Lumber Yard.  They have a deal with McCormick 
Distillery to sell the old barrels.  I think that 3 years ago a barrel 
was $50.  Unless you are close to here, I would suggest finding a 
Distillery that has a similar arrangement. We made a Bourbon Barrel 
Stout, which has since become locally famous (infamous).
Good luck,
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS
Lawrence Brewers Guild


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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:31:51 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Re: Used Bourbon Barrels

> From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman at verizon.net>

> Our hb club would like to purchase a once used bourbon barrel.  It
> looks like the sites on the web that we've found require bulk
> purchase of many barrels.  If someone has a link to a site that sells
> single barrels of used-once, select barrels please send us the URL or
> post on HBD.

David,

Your best bet is to contact the nearest distillery.  They all sell them. 
That's where our homebrew club got ours.

If you can't find one in a few hours drive, you may be out of luck, unless 
you can get someone to buy one for you and ship it out.

rob 



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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:25:57 -0500
From: FLJohnson at portbridge.com
Subject: Kirin Hops

My company (Inspire Pharmaceuticals, Inc.) and the pharmaceutical division of
Kirin Brewery Company have been partners in development of a product, so I've
had a lot of Kirin Beer (in Japan).  Kirin uses Hallertau and Saaz from Germany
and the Czech Republic in their beers. 

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:18:32 +0000
From: robert.jones.web at comcast.net
Subject: WL American Hefe - long primary ferment?

I brewed a 5 gallon batch of wheat beer using 7# of 
wheat/barley malt extract syrup, so probably a 
1.045-1.050, and used White Labs American Hefeweizen.

I did a 1.5 quart starter two days before, and it took off like 
crazy, subsequently the batch took off like crazy, a good 
krausen going in about 4 hours.

It's been going 2 weeks now in the primary fermenter, and 
air bubble about every 15 seconds.  I typically wait until it's 
down to a bubble every 90 seconds or so before I rack to a 
glass carboy.   Most every batch I done slows down by this 
time, but this doesn't appear ready to rack.  Is anyone 
familiar with this yeast?  With the way the fermentation took 
off, I expected it to subside by a week or less.  I've been 
brewing for over 10 years now, so I think my sanitation is 
pretty good.  I just haven't seen something keep chugging 
along in the primary this long, given that it started so quickly.
I'm not concerned really, but just curious if this yeast is known 
for feverish starts and a long period of activity.

Thanks,
Robert
Portland, Oregon


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