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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: link of the week - Seefahrtsbier ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Roasted grains: A Different Perspective (Michael)
  Re: clear vs dark ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Spruce (Scott and Cherie Stihler)
  Re: clear vs dark ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  BJCP finances ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  CARBOY Shamrock Open - March 12 (mpdixon)
  Steam Injection ("Dan Listermann")
  German Lessons ("A.J deLange")
  Get Fuzzy Homebrew ("Rob Dewhirst")
  Spruce tips (Dylan Schwilk)
  Re: Spruce beer (Dan Fink)
  Re: Rapadura Sugar (plus new invert sugar q) ("Jason Gross")
  RE: clear vs dark ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  Seefahrtsbier ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  get fuzzy (Kevin\)" <krstiles@agere.com>
  Fort Collins Water Analysis ("Janie Curry")
  Re: Rapadura ("Kevin Morgan")


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:42:11 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: link of the week - Seefahrtsbier

On Monday,  7 February 2005 at 17:01:05 +0000, bob.devine at att.net wrote:
> In German beer making, Seefahrtsbier is brewed on
> the second Friday in February.  This year, the day
> falls on Feb 11th.
>
> Seefahrtsbier, which means "sea journey beer" or
> maybe "see navigation beer",

How about "seafarer beer"?  That's closer to the meaning.

> was made in the port city of Bremen to celebrate a sailors festival.
> The beer is very malty.
>
> http://www.berliner-bierfestival.de/bierABC.htm
>
> (Anybody with better German skills, please jump in here!
> Original quote:

Well, some of the letters have been changed.  But you have to on this
list: using the German alphabet is a sure way to get your mail
rejected.  Note, however, that you can't just replace the forbidden
letters with another letter: the combinations should be written ae,
oe, ue, and the "beta" thing is ss.

> Dieses Bier wird heute nur noch am zweiten Freitag des Februar im
> Bremer Ratskeller gebraut, zur sogenannten Schiffermahlzeit.

This beer is now only brewed on the second Friday of February in the
cellar of the Bremen Town Hall, for the so-called sailor's meal.

> Fruher

Frueher

> wurde es am Ende des Winters den Seeleuten vor dem Auslaufen
> dargeboten.

In days gone by it was offered to the seamen at the end of winter when
leaving the port.

> Das Seefahrtsbier ist sehr malzig.

The seafarer's beer is very malty.

> Does anybody have a recipe for this beer?  The only clues I've found
> are that it is dark and malty.  With such a great (although
> giggle-inducing) name and story, I gotta make it!

Google is your friend.  Possibly there are details that will interest
you less.  I'd quote
http://www.radiobremen.de/online/schaffermahl/historie.html directly,
but it would probably get my message rejected, and I can't be
bothered.  Pat, let me know when we're allowed to post German
language.  In any case, it says "it is viscous, sweet and alcohol
free".  Presumably more a wort than a beer.  Still interested?

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:24:43 -0600
From: Michael <grice at berbee.com>
Subject: Roasted grains: A Different Perspective

Greg R. posted about his bad experience with roasting his own grains. So
far, I've had the opposite experience.

Just before Christmas, I roasted roughly a little over four pounds of
Maris Otter for a historical stout. Roughly two pounds of it became
pale amber malt, another pound amber malt, and the remaining pound or
so brown malt. At the time, I was a bit concerned, as all three smelled
like peanut butter to me.

On New Year's Day, I brewed the stout. I used a modified version of the
recipe for Usher's stout in the Durden Park Circle book, substituting
about half a pound of Rauchmalz for some of the pale amber malt and
cutting back on the hops a wee bit.

Yesterday I bottled it. Based on a warm sample tasted yesterday, I don't
see how this won't be a fine example of a stout unless I infected it or
completely oxidized it while bottling. There is certainly no more acrid
flavor than you would normally expect in a stout, and that's probably
from the generous amount of black patent malt used.

The trick may be to err on the light side. I followed the Durden Park
Circle book directions pretty carefully, cutting a few grains in half
every twenty minutes or so and examing the color inside the grain. I
certainly wouldn't try to roast any malt darker than brown malt (no
home-made chocolate or black malt).

Michael
Middleton, WI


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:01:47 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: clear vs dark

On Monday,  7 February 2005 at 10:15:21 -0800, Mark Tigges wrote:
>
> Writing this kind of message is not something I do often.  In online
> communities, it's difficult for any good to come out of it simply
> because of the propensity for flaming.  But, it's been bugging me for
> a long time, so sorry if anyone gets annoyed.
>
> As I'm sure everyone reading is aware, in southern Germany there are
> two mainstay lagers.  A pale lager, and a dark lager.  There are of
> course others, but these are the mainstays.  They are so ubiquitous
> that they are simply referred to as pale and dark.  In fact, if you go
> to a donut shop and ask for a pale, they won't give you a cake flour
> unglazed donut, they'll say they don't serve beer.  (Or they will hand
> you a pale lager if they do in fact serve beer with their donuts.)

This, of course, is because they don't have the same usage.  I
hadn't heard of the term "pale" in this connection.

> In German the word 'hell' means something quite different than it
> does in English.  It means brightly, or clearly.

More like "bright" or "light".  You note the conflict in terminology:
a Hellbier is not "Lite".  I'm not sure what it's called in Germany;
probably "Lite" or "Leicht".

> This is the word that they use to name their pale lager.  As an
> adjective the word is 'helles'. So, as everybody knows, to order a
> draft pale lager; "ein Helles von Fass bitte."

That's somewhat regional, too.

> Now, here is where confusion reigns.  I don't know why, but it seems
> everybody believes that the same wierdness behind hell/helles must
> exist for their word for dark as well.  It does not.  Dark
> translates to dunkel.  So in fact does darkly.  Both adjective and
> adverb are spelt and pronounced the same.

Yes, German doesn't make the same distinction between adjective and
adverb that English does.

> And it is not dunkle.

Most definitely not!

> So, a dark lager is a dunkel, not a dunkels.

But (just to confuse the issue) maybe a "dunkles".  Read on.

> And most definitely not a dunkle, or a dunkles.  Even if you want
> two dark lagers, it's still just "zwei Dunkel."

Hmm.  I'm not sure about that.

There are a number of linguistic issues here:

1.  The use of these terms varies from one part of the German-speaking
    part of Europe to another.  There's a fair amount of discussion of
    this kind of topic on the HBF list.

2.  As I've said, "hell" can be an adjective or an adverb.  But
    "Helles" is definitely an adjectival noun (a gerundive if you want
    to be pedantic), and it's neuter.  That's because "Bier" is
    neuter.  If people used this term for wine, which is masculine,
    they'd ask for a "Hellen" (in the accusative).  In any case,
    there's no suggestion of an adverb here any more.

3.  The difference between "dunkel" and "dunkle" isn't just spelling:
    they're pronounced the way they're written.  But "dunkles" (again,
    neuter adjectival noun) is pronounced that way.

4.  I haven't seen the distinction you mentioned ("Ein Helles, bitte"
    or "Ein Dunkel bitte").  But that's liable to be part of the
    regional issues.  When I was in Bavaria I mainly drank
    Wei[ss]bier.

5.  None of this applies explictly only to lager.  It's just that they
    don't drink anything else (except Wei[ss]bier) in that part of the
    German-speaking world.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:40:45 -0900
From: Scott and Cherie Stihler <stihlerunits at mosquitonet.com>
Subject: Spruce

Most  spruce beers I've seen use only the tips or new growth that 
forms during the spring.

I have picked spruce tips around Breakup time and frozen them for 
later use. This works quite well though you need to add a bit more to 
your recipe when using them.

I generally use about 1 oz. or about 2 cups worth of spruce tips for 
a 5 gallon batch.

Spruce is generally only boiled 10 minutes or so. This should be 
sufficient to impart the unique flavor and aroma of spruce.

I've also "dry hopped" with spruce to add a little more spruce aroma 
to my beer.

Spruce is most often referred to as tasting similar to a cola, 
particularly Pepsi. This is a gross generalization but that is about 
the closest flavor to spruce that I can think of.

Spruce should never be piney or reminiscent of Pinesol or turpentine. 
If this is the case, then you likely have some sort of pine rather 
than spruce.

Captain Cook while searching for the Northwest passage brewed a 
spruce beer. The spruce helped balance the malty sweetness and its 
Vitamin C  helped to prevent scurvy. Captain Cook used Sitka spruce 
which is readily available in southeastern Alaska. The commercial 
versions produced by Alaskan Brewing and Bottling Company and the now 
defunct Ketchikan Brewing Company both employed Sitka spruce.

The interior of Alaska where I live has only black and white spruce. 
I've used both with good success. I don't know if there is an actual 
varietal difference with respect to the flavors and aromas imparted 
to the beer by various types of spruce. A side by side comparison 
would be interesting.

I hope this helps or at least is of interest to you.


Cheers,

Scott Stihler
Fairbanks, Alaska






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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:57:13 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: clear vs dark

On Tuesday,  8 February 2005 at 15:01:47 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Monday,  7 February 2005 at 10:15:21 -0800, Mark Tigges wrote:
>> And it is not dunkle.
>
> Most definitely not!
>
>> So, a dark lager is a dunkel, not a dunkels.
>
> But (just to confuse the issue) maybe a "dunkles".  Read on.
>
>> And most definitely not a dunkle, or a dunkles.  Even if you want
>> two dark lagers, it's still just "zwei Dunkel."
>
> Hmm.  I'm not sure about that.

I didn't go into this in more detail, but I've just stumbled across
this in the German HBF list, talking about beers in Breslau:

On Friday,  4 February 2005 at  7:15:32 +0100, Hibbo Niemann wrote:
> Ein herrliches Erlebnis ! Das Dunkle hat mir von den gebotenen
> Bieren dort am besten geschmeckt.

"A wonderful experience.  The dark [beer] tasted best of all the beers
on offer".

So why "Dunkle" (after all) and not "Dunkles"?  Another grammatical
strangeness (which used to happen in Old English as well): there are
strong and weak adjective forms.  "Ein Dunkles" ("a dark") is strong;
"das Dunkle" ("the dark") is weak, and it loses the s at the end.

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:32:37 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: BJCP finances

Re: Lee's post in HBD #4716: http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4716.html#4716-4

There has long been talk about financial irregularities at the BJCP. 
There may be only one person who is criminally responsible, but there 
are many questions for BJCP officers and representatives. See: 
http://www.bjcp.org/annual2004.html  for the BJCP Annual Report.

I would like to know:
1) Why does a small non-profit organization like the BJCP (with annual 
income of  $15K and expenses of $5K) have $65K on its books? SOP is 1 or 
2 years operating expenses for a small non-profit.
2) Why, especially with $65K on the books, has the BJCP been so lax in 
implementing procedures such as "requiring two signatures on any check 
over $500, requiring a quarterly financial report to the board, and 
mandating an annual financial report being posted for membership as 
required by the By-Laws". These are all SOP. An organization with 
several thousand members must have an accountant or lawyer who should 
have told you such.

Sincerely,
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
(BJCP National Judge)




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Date: Tue,  8 Feb 2005 07:03:17 -0500
From: mpdixon at ipass.net
Subject: CARBOY Shamrock Open - March 12

The CARBOY Shamrock Open is March 12 in Raleigh, NC.

Deadline for shipped entries to arrive is March 5.
http://hbd.org/carboy/shamrock.htm


Judges and stewards can sign up using the online registration form 

Cheers,
Mike Dixon
Wake Forest, NC


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:28:36 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: Steam Injection

Bart Thielges asks about steam injection.  I tried it back in the late 80's. 
It worked but I didn't feel it made my beer any better and, while fun, I 
decided that it was not worth the bother.

I attached the steam manifold ( a closed Cu pipe with holes drilled into it 
sides ) to a stick like paddle that could be used to stir the mash. The 
connection between the boiler ( a pressure cooker ) was made with the metal 
corrugated flexible gas hoses you see of gas stoves and such.  I used two of 
the smaller diameter hoses connected with a flare coupling.  It is important 
to insulate the hose to avoid burns.  A towel wrapped around the hose worked 
fine.  I made the mash a bit thinner than usual and, during injection, I 
simply stirred the mash with the injector.  It made some really neat noises.

Dan Listermann






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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 14:39:45 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: German Lessons

No problem with Bob's transaltion of the Seefahrtsbier entry. I have no 
idea whether there is a festival called Schiffermahlzeit which 
litterally means a sailors meal but there might be. If one searches for 
this word on the net one comes up with hits from travel companies which 
advertize various nautically related activities one of which is a 
Schiffenmahlzeit on board a vessel or barge. One site shows a group of 
seamen sitting at a table on deck eating and drinking. I'd translate the 
whole passage as "Today this bier is made in the ratskellers of Bremen 
only on the second Friday of February for the socalled "sailors meal". 
In earlier times it was offered to seamen at the end of winter prior to 
the commencement of voyages.

Now on to Mark's comments. I'd encourage a visit to the same page with 
the Seefahrtsbier (http://www.berliner-bierfestival.de/bierABC.htm#S) 
except go to the D page where there is an entry for Dunkles Lagerbier. 
Or look in Cassels under Bier:  two examples are given of the use of 
this word and they are helles Bier and dunkles Bier. Hell and dunkel are 
both adjectives (Dunkel (n)  is also a noun and there is a noun form of 
hell as well but it is Helle (f)) and as German is an inflected language 
their endings must match the noun. Farbe (color) is feminine (or, as we 
say in these more enlightened times, a "die word"). Thus dunkel Farbe or 
helle Farbe. But Bier is a "das word" hence helles  Bier and dunkles Bier.

Now Helle as a noun (to be found in the dictionary) can also mean a 
glass of ale as can Helles (also in Cassels) with the latter obviously a 
shortening of "helles Bier". Dunkles as a noun is not found in Cassels 
but would be understood by any barman in any German speaking county to 
be a contraction for dunkles Bier. Several breweries in such places name 
their dark beers in this way e.g. "... Ottakringer Dunkles, Unser 
meisterhaft gebrautes Dunkles." (from their web site). Clearly they are 
using the adjective as a noun here as indicated by the capitalization. 
It may not be in Cassels and it may not even be strictly grammatical but 
it is certainly going to be understood.

A.J.


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:53:00 -0600
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <rob at hairydogbrewery.com>
Subject: Get Fuzzy Homebrew

The very funny comic strip "Get Fuzzy" is starting a few days talking about 
homebrew.

<http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/getfuzzy-20050207.html>

(comics.com tombstones their archives, so read this now)



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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:05:59 -0800
From: Dylan Schwilk <try at schwilk.org>
Subject: Spruce tips

Jim McCrillis asks about spruce tips in beer:

 > Are they available commercially or does one have to go out and just
 > gather them off  of some old pine tree?

 -Just one thing: don't use pine (Pinus) if you want spruce (Picea)! 
Although folks have been known to make pine needle tea, I do not 
recommend it.  If a species of spruce doesn't naturally grow in your 
area, it may be planted horticulturally.  I don't know how different 
Picea sp. vary in terms of flavor.


 -Dylan


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:12:07 -0700
From: Dan Fink <danbob at direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Spruce beer

I brew a spruce beer every spring. The one time I tried spruce extract, 
I thought it reminded me way too much of Retsina -- ugh.

I pick the bright green tips of both blue spruce and Engelmann spruce 
every spring, on a long hike to get away from car exhaust. I can pick 
them on the colorado plains as early as april or may, and as late as 
june-july at around the 10,000 ft elevation level. They should feel wet 
and soft and kind of sticky to the touch and not poke you-- if they 
don't feel wet and soft, they will be too resiny. You want them just 
after they break thru the brown papery outer coating on the bud.

The idea in my Brown Spruce Ale recipe is to get the citrusy 
characteristics of the spruce tips without the resiny part. It's a 
standard allgrain brown ale. So I do around 4 oz per 5 gal batch boiled 
with the hops for 1 hour, and the same amount for the finish -- I 
lightly crush the finishing spruce, put them in a big nylon hop bag, and 
add them with the finishing hops, right after turning off the burner, 
let them steep 30 minutes, then start chilling the wort.  This has (so 
far) pasteurized the spruce tips just fine every time with no contamination.

I'll be doing another spruce beer this year for sure; it's a tradition 
up here. I'm at 8200 ft elevation so it's early June when i harvest them 
around here. I'd be willing to mail out some fresh spruce when I do the 
harvest, I'll have to charge a nominal fee because it's time consuming 
and will have to be shipped in styrofoam with a couple cold packs to 
keep them fresh. Anyone that's interested (and doesn't have local spruce 
trees!), send me an email -- I'll file it and contact you when the local 
spruce is ready for picking to see if you are still interested. I've got 
40 acres of land, so each tree only loses a few buds from the lower 
branches.

DAN


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:21:41 -0700
From: "Jason Gross" <jrgross at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rapadura Sugar (plus new invert sugar q)

I used the "organic store" rapadura sugar variety in a trappist-like ale.  
It was substituted in place of candi sugar just for my own amusement.  I 
didn't realize that Papazian wrote about rapadura sugar.  I'll have to see 
what he had to say.  Which version was that in?  My experience with it was 
enjoyable.  I've since bought some more for another yet to be determined 
brew.  It's hard for me to describe its flavor impact, but I'll say it was 
more complete than say candi sugar, if that makes any sense.  I probably 
wouldn't use it in an APA, but could picture it in an IPA...it has its 
place.  My advice is to try it, you'll like it.

On a related topic, I've recently brewed an old ale where I made some invert 
sugar and added it to the wort.  Since then, I've read Fix's book that 
states that yeast use an invertase enzyme that inverts sucrose anyway before 
it is metabolized.  Is it really necessary to invert sucrose before use?  I 
thought I've heard elsewhere that sucrose is not a good adjunct in beer for 
some reason.  Maybe in moderation?  However, I've successfully used sucrose 
in peach wine made from my peach tree.  (Please don't ask me how to grow 
peaches in North Dakota.   My tree was in Colorado.)

Thanks for the bandwidth,

Jason Gross
Mandan, ND




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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:15:14 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: clear vs dark

Mark,

I don't have a Duden (the German grammar reference) in front of me but am 
fairly sure that you are mixing nouns and adjectives.

While you refer to 'Dunkel' an a manner befitting a noun, there is nothing 
wrong with referring to a dark beer as a 'dunkles' since it is the
adjectival form and modifies the word Bier. So I could order a dark beer 
from the keg by saying 'Ein dunkles vom Fass'.  This implies 'Ein dunkles
(Bier) vom Fass' but the word Bier in this case is redundant and not spoken.

>Now, here is where confusion reigns.  I don't know why, but it seems
>everybody believes that the same wierdness behind hell/helles must
>exist for their word for dark as well.  It does not.  Dark translates
>to dunkel.  So in fact does darkly.  Both adjective and adverb are
>spelt and pronounced the same.  And it is not dunkle.  So, a dark lager

The gender of Bier is neuter.
The adjective dunkel in nominative singular neuter is dunkles.
The adjective dunkel in nominative plural is dunkle.

>is a dunkel, not a dunkels.  And most definitely not a dunkle, or a
>dunkles.  Even if you want two dark lagers, it's still just "zwei
>Dunkel."

I think the confusion arises from your reference to Southern Germany where 
many breweries will have a pale and dark lager, and as you yourself said,
they name their beers as such. So an imaginary brewery called Thisbrau will 
brew a Thisbrau Helles and a Thisbrau Dunkel. Then Dunkel is the name of the
dark lager and would be ordered in the manner you said.  However everybody 
would also understand if you ordered a 'dunkles'. Or if you wanted two you
could order in the plural form and say 'Zwei dunkle (Biere) bitte'.

I will test this tonight (since I happen to be in Germany) and order a dark
lager both ways.


Prost, und bierige Gruesse aus Heidelberg!
Marty




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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:55 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: Seefahrtsbier 

Bob,

>Dieses Bier wird heute nur noch am zweiten Freitag
>des Februar im Bremer Ratskeller gebraut, zur
>sogenannten Schiffermahlzeit. Fruher wurde es am
>Ende des Winters den Seeleuten vor dem Auslaufen
>dargeboten. Das Seefahrtsbier ist sehr malzig.

Nowdays, this beer is only brewed on the second Friday in February in the 
Bremer Ratskeller for the so-called sailor's meal. In the past, at the end 
of winter, this beer was made available to sailors before they set sail. 
Seefahrtsbier is very malty.

A quick google search revealed the "Bremer Ratskeller" is an upscale 
restaurant that has an extensive wine list. No reference was made to either 
brewing beer or to a sailor's meal even though such an event should be 
coming up fairly soon.  I think this beer has slipped into obscurity and is 
lost to us unless Randy Mosher figures out how to brew it.

I did find a reference to Seefahrtsbier and the Schaffermahl. There were 
several links for the Schaffermahl:
http://www2.bremen.de/info/history/schaffermahl/home.html
http://www.radiobremen.de/online/schaffermahl/historie.html

These events are banquets the celebrate Bremens status as a port and center 
of trade. Seefahrtsbier is served as one of the courses. The latter link 
describes Seefahrtsbier.

Seefahrtsbier. Es ist dickfluessig, suess und alkoholfrei! Es wird 
ausschliesslich fuer das Schaffermahl gebraut und aus einem Silberhumpen 
getrunken. Angeblich haben frueher die Seefahrer mit dem Getraenk Skorbut 
bekaempft.

Seefahrtsbier. It is viscous, sweet and has no alcohol. It is brewed 
exclusively for the Schaffermahl and is drunk from silver chalices. In the 
past it is alleged that sailors fought scurvy with this drink.

Another link: www.schaffermahlzeit.de seems to be dead but digging around in 
google's cache the following was found:
Aus grossen Silberhumpen wird Seefahrtsbier getrunken - ein dickfluessiges 
Braunbier, das ausschliesslich zur Schaffermahlzeit gebraut wird und womit 
frueher an Bord der gefuerchtete Skorbut bekaempft wurde.

Seefahrtsbier is drunk from large silver chalices - a highly viscous brown 
beer that is exclusively brewed for the Schaffermahlzeit and with which the 
dreaded scurvy was fought in the past.

Marty




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:38:12 -0500
From: "Stiles, Kevin R \(Kevin\)" <krstiles at agere.com>
Subject: get fuzzy

Not my favorite strip, and nothing particularly insightful wrt
homebrewing, but nevertheless...

http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/getfuzzy-20050207.html
http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/getfuzzy-20050208.html

Kevin Stiles
Allentown, PA [446.7, 102.3] AR



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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:01:45 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fort Collins Water Analysis

A real nice lady at the water department named Sue shared with me the Fort 
Collins Colorado water analysis.  Looks like they draw from the Poudre River 
and Horsetooth Reservoir (Big Thompson River), and sample from several 
points around the city.

At Sample Sation #2 (Official Distribution System Entry Point), the values 
are listed as the following: Hardness (mg/L as CaCO3) 48.8; Alkalinity (mg/L 
as CaCO3) 37; pH=7.91; Sulfate (mg/L) 12.0; Sodium (mg/L) 2.9; Chloride 
(mg/L) 2.5; Calcium (mg/L as CaCO3) 42.4; and Magnesium (mg/L) 1.6.

I find it interesting that water sampled from the Poudre River has a calcium 
of 17.9; and water from Horsetooth Reservoir has a calcium of 23.0; and 
water sampled from the distribution system entry point has a calcium of 
42.4.  Why are these additive?  Same sort of thing seems to happen with 
alkalinity (23.0; 26.8, 37); and hardness (24.2; 28.1; 48.8).

Since Budweiser has a brewery here, I'm assuming that Fort Collins water 
must be suitable for Pilsnser lagers.  I put the values in ProMash last 
night, but haven't played around with the profiles.   If I wanted to brew a 
Pilsner, should I drive up to the Poudre Canyon to get water out of the 
stream or should I use the water from the Fort Collins tap (after filtration 
to remove chlorine)?

Todd in Fort Collins



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:42:19 -0500
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Rapadura

Sounds like rapadura is the same as Panutsa from the Philippines.
Panutsa is generally available in Asian/Oriental grocery stores.
I have not used it in beer, but I did brew up a panutsa cyser with
good results.

Kevin, Brewing/Mazing in South Jersey



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