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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  DOE FG Experiement ("Dan Listermann")
  Heating Plastic (was: Igloo Cooler w/ Water Heater Element) (Alexandre Enkerli)
  RE: John Reed misc. topics ("John Ferens")
  RE: Bottling ("May, Jeff")
  Re: oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning? (Denny Conn)
  RE: Pumping Sparge water; Starter aeration; CP filling (eIS\) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
  Re: Igloo coolers as mash tun (Thom Cannell)
  Sourness in saison ("Brian Schar")
  RE: Pumping sparge water (RiedelD)
  diacetyl rest (Leo Vitt)
  Hop madness in Vancouver (Mark Tigges)


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:15:06 -0500
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: DOE FG Experiement

 "Jeremy Lenzendorf" <jlenzendorf at ingeniumpd.com>
Subject: FG experiment

My question are thus:

1. I don't mind buying two cases of 1 liter swing top bottles; I'll use
them again.  But how can I get around buying an air lock for each one?

2. Will adding a packet of yeast to each liter sample be okay, or should
I divide the initial five gallon into four parts, add the yeast and
divide again into four liters?

I have done a couple of DOEs with beer and feel that it could go a long way 
to improving recipes and methods.  I wish I had more time for it.

A cotton ball will sub for an air lock for your swing top bottles.  This is 
what the biology guys use.  If that makes you uneasy, cover the mouth with 
aluminum foil too.

There is nothing wrong with adding a full packet to each bottle.  I am 
splitting five gallon batches between five yeasts and giving each gallon a 
full packet.  From this perspective, it is uneventful.

Carry on and be sure to let us know how it turn out!

Dan Listermann







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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:34:03 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Heating Plastic (was: Igloo Cooler w/ Water Heater Element)

Anthony Cresrenzi received some answers about whether or not one can 
use a water heater element in an Igloo cooler.
Not sure this helps Anthony specifically, but there *are* plastic 
boilers around (like the BruHeat, which I use), and the plastic is 
fine, even after long hour of boiling. The element in a BruHeat is 
fairly similar to a small water heater element.

Of course, the "plastic buckets" used in these boilers are made of a 
specific grade of HDPE that can withstand those temperatures. And 
they're fairly thin. Thing is, such a plastic boiler keeps its temp, 
even when used as a mash-tun, because, well, you can heat the liquid 
using the element. So no need for an insulated cooler.

Now, does anyone know if Rubbermaid and Co. make any kind of plastic 
tub which can withstand high temperatures? The BruHeat is mighty cool 
as both a mash-tun and a kettle but I've been thinking about getting 
something bigger for my mash-tun, maybe rectangular, and have a 
vertical spigot at the bottom as opposed to the lateral spigot of the 
BruHeat... Like the BruHeat, I'd "zapap" this plastic tub by drilling 
holes in a second one and using it as a false bottom...
I'm not very handy but I think I could manage this...

Slainte!

AleX near Notre Dame, IN
[129.7mi, 251.5] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:33:20 -0500
From: "John Ferens" <john.ferens at ansys.com>
Subject: RE: John Reed misc. topics

John,

CPBF: I tend to agree, non-commercial CPBF units seem to be greatly
overrated.  I believe you will get consistently better results with
bottle conditioned beers, even when submitting to a competition.  When I
brew, I'll typically shoot for an end result of 6+ gallons and fill
directly from my conical fermenter about a dozen bottles primed with
prime tabs (don't believe the 2 or 3 per bottle, my experience is more
like 6 or 7 to get proper carbonation).  I've used the Coopers tablets,
but they tend to over carbonate; I would prefer Coopers tablets if they
would only produce a slightly smaller version.  The rest of the batch
goes into a keg.  All in all, this makes for a very simple process.

Starters: Maybe it isn't common to do so, but I add O2 to my starters as
well as to my wort.  Frederick and others could write paragraphs on the
subject but I believe the gist is simply this: yeast need O2 (among
other things already present in the wort) to replicate.  The purpose of
a starter is to replicate yeast; ergo it makes sense to aerate the
starter.  I use O2 (with a stone) because I'm impatient and because it
is inherently more sterile.  I might use a stir plate if I had one, but
would still aerate.  

Recipes:  I think we might all be interested in whatever list you
accumulate - care to share them in one central location (hbd.org?) once
you compile them?  

Cheers!
John in Pittsburgh




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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:44:09 -0500
From: "May, Jeff" <Jeff.May at uscellular.com>
Subject: RE: Bottling

John Peed asks about oxidation from bottling without a CPBF.

To answer honestly, I don't know.  My beer never lasts long
enough to worry about it.  I don't care about competitions.
I brew for fun and my friends and family enjoy my results.
I used to be a gear-head.  I bought and built all kinds
gadgets and thingamajigs for brewing.  I built 2 CPBFs,
a counterflow chiller, several fancy sparge arms, etc.
It was more of a PITA than it was fun.  Now days I batch
sparge, use an immersion chiller, force carbonate, and if
I need bottles, I use a cobra faucet.  So for me, simpler
means I will brew more often and have more fun. It's just
beer, not rocket science.

Relax dude...Have a homebrew.

Jeff May
On the beach (Wilmington, NC)
AR [649.7, 148.6]


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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:24:32 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning?

Andy, I've been using Oxiclean for years to clean my brewing 
stuff....carboys, buckets, kegs, tubing, you name it!  I find it's a great, 
low cost, effective cleaner.  I use only 1-2 scoops in 5-7 gal. of water 
and it works great.  I've done some testing that indicates it probably does 
sanitize also, but why risk it?  Especially since Oxiclean needs to be 
rinsed, and I prefer no rinse sanitizers.  After cleaning with Oxiclean, I 
sanitize with either Iodophor or StarSan.  Both of them are highly 
effective no rinse sanitizers.  I'd rather be safe than sorry.

         ------------->Denny

At 11:21 PM 3/16/05 -0500, you wrote:
>Subject: oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning?
>
>I have read some conflicting opinions on Oxyclean.
>Can it be used for cleaing and sanitation on beer
>making equipmentsuch as kegs, carboys, or plastic
>fermenters?  Is it good for sanitation without any
>other treatment?  Presently I use 1 TBS bleach/gallon.
>
>Andy from Hillsborough




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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:06:27 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve \(eIS\) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Pumping Sparge water; Starter aeration; CP filling

Thanks for the physics lesson, Kent. But my pump bore (March hi temp)
measures 3/8", not 1/2", even though it has a 1/2" MIP thread. So my
1/4" ID tubing is not as much of a difference as it appears to be. That
said, however, I plan on moving up to 1/2" OD (3/8" ID) to match the
pump bore size. I have throttled down the output and it does make a
difference, but why can I pump wort at full speed without this
phenomenon occurring? If I boiled the bejeezus out of the sparge water
and cooled it to 170 before pumping will this still happen?

Aerating starters: I use a stir plate, but only loosely cover it with
aluminum foil. This allows gaseous exchange without creating air
currents that can pull nasties into the starter, and the vortex pulls
adequate O2 into the wort, much like using sanitized cotton or foam
plugs. And as many others have said, you are growing yeast, not making
beer. During the growth phase yeast needs lots of O2 to reproduce. As
long as you decant the spent wort, you are maximizing yeast growth and
not having to worry about adding off flavors to your beer. And I don't
generally use airlocks in my primaries - again I use aluminum foil
loosely covering the carboy opening. After I rack to secondary I will
use an airlock.

CP filling: Though I have no experience with longer term storage of tap
filled bottles, I tend to agree with John Peed on his thoughts about
them vs cp filling. I'll do it to take bottles to a meeting or a party
for consumption the same or next day, but use my cp filler for longer
term storage. I don't enter very many competitions any more, but nearly
all the ones I have entered have been with cp filled bottles, including
a BOS in John's club's last comp before they changed to a keg only comp,
and 3 medalists in the NHC (1 gold/BOS,  another gold, and a bronze). My
2001 winner was over a year in the bottle, and didn't receive any
comments about oxidation (though some is acceptable for the style).

Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR

P.S.  AHA members, be sure to vote in the Governing Committee election
that is currently going on. The HBD's own Jeff Renner is  up for
re-election, and everyone here knows how passionate he is about
homebrewing and how much he contributes to the value of this digest. I
can assure you after working with him for the past 3 years that he
contributes as much value to the Governing Committee as he does here,
and you would surely be remiss if you don't help to send him back. And
if you aren't a member, why not? Join the AHA and throw in a vote for
Jeff.






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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:31:46 -0500
From: Thom Cannell <Thom at CannellAndAssociates.com>
Subject: Re: Igloo coolers as mash tun

> Anthony Cresrenzi asks about using a heater element with
>  an igloo cooler.  Eric R. Theiner  said " I don't have hard figures, but
> anecdotally it seems like a bad idea.


I've made two such mash tuns using either BruHeat or water heater elements.
The original had no heater element and then was modified. I lent it to a pal
who used gallons of boiling water to change temperature. He was successful
in changing temperature, and in severely warping the cylindrical interior. I
continued to use that mash tun for two years before replacing it with a
new-but-similar design. So yes, you can mash in a cylindrical cooler (and I
have many friends who use the large ice chest the same way.) But I am quite
certain you cannot boil in it. Wrong kind of plastic.

FWIW, I often apply heat and recirculate up to mash-out (and once up to
200F,) with no ill effects on the cooler walls (the 200F brown ale taught me
many things about astringency and tannins...) They remain straight and
unwarped to date.




Thom Cannell

T_Cannell near compuserve.com
CannellAndAssociates also near comcast.net




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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:33:06 -0800
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: Sourness in saison

I am brewing a saison in a week or two.  I grabbed some saison yeast 
from the LHBS recently when I dropped off a couple of beers for entry into 
a competition, before I acquired and read the new book "Farmhouse 
Ales."  Imagine my surprise to find that saison yeast likes high 
temperatures (up to 90 degrees!) for fermentation.  It's a little early 
to get that hot around here, but I can at least stick the fermenters 
in my garage, which does get pretty hot late in the day even in winter.

"Farmhouse Ales" also notes that saison, particularly historical examples 
thereof, has some degree of sourness, possibly Brett.  I'm not ready to 
introduce Brett into my brewing equipment, for fear I'll never get it out.  
Also, I'm not sure I want that much sourness in my saison.  I'm considering
doing what I've heard some folks do for Guinness clones - make a small 
portion of sour beer and then add it to the fermenter.  I'm thinking about
making up perhaps a half gallon of extract-based wort, throwing in some 
raw grain, letting it sit for a few days, straining out the grain and boiling 
up the resultant sour beer to kill any fauna therein, then adding that to 
my five gallons of saison. 

Should I just leave out the sour part altogether, for that matter?  After 
all, the BJCP guidelines state that a "low to moderate tart sourness 
may be present, but should not overwhelm other flavors."  Thus, 
sourness is something that is optionally present, not required.

I'd appreciate any comments from anyone with more experience 
brewing this style than me.  It's my first time.  Thanks!

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA



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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:42:07 -0800
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: RE: Pumping sparge water

Kent (and Chad) point out that Steve and I may be pulling water vapour out
of solution.  A good point, but in my situation, I'm pumping wort without
problem - only the sparge water has bubbles forming.  So why the water and
not the wort?

I'm going back to my theory that the sparge water has been heated to
sufficiently drive some of the air out of solution (air being less soluble
in warm liquids).  The difference between the sparge water and the wort is
that the wort was boiled for 60 minutes and has had all (probably some 1/t
type relationship) the air driven out/off.  It may not be so much that the
air is forming in the tubing but that it's along for the ride right out of
the vessel.

[Note: I'm not sure whether the bubbles are air or water vapour, or whether
it matters from a physical standpoint with respect to the pump problem.
Obviously, if it's air, it's an oxidation problem.]

IF this is the case, the solution would seem to be to 1) pump the liquid at
a lower temperature, or 2) boil it a bit to drive the bubbles off.  Neither
of these solutions are great.  The first puts your sparge temp too low, the
second is a waste of fuel (power) and time.  Perhaps stirring might help,
but I think it would take a lot.

I'm starting to re-think my original idea to heat the sparge water with an
immersion element.

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Canada



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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:51:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: diacetyl rest


A.J. responded to a dicetyl question:


>Probably the best way to increase diacetyl without ruining the beer 
>otherwise is to use a diacetyl producing strain and skip the diacetyl 
>rest. 

It's my understanding that the purpose of a diacetyl rest is to REDUCE
diacetyl.  I use it at the end of primary fermentation of a lager.  You
warm up the primary fermenter to about 60F, and the yeast will reabsorb
diacetyl.  After the diacetyl rest, I rack to secondary and begin the
temp reduction to 34-35F.

Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE


		


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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:31:47 -0800
From: Mark Tigges <mtigges at shaw.ca>
Subject: Hop madness in Vancouver


On April 30, there will be an IPA festival in Vancouver (BC), at DIX
bar. About 20 cask conditioned IPAs from around the province.  In
addition to this there will be a homebrew comp for IPA's.  The
homebrews have to be at the bar by closing on the 23rd.  Judging will
be on the 30th.  I know there are a couple of somewhat regular posters
from the lower mainland, I thought I'd post this here in case some
hadn't heard about it.

Here's the DIX webpage: 

  http://www.markjamesgroup.com/restbrew/dix/dix.html

It's spartan, and doesn't have any info about the IPA festival, but
phone the bar and ask for Tony (he's the brewer) if you need details.

You can see the flyer here:

  http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/28960.html?1110336216

Mark.
Vancouver (BC).



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