---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

                  Beer, Beer, and More Beer
      Visit http://morebeer.com to show your appreciation!

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning? (Andrew Kligerman)
  air in suction line ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: bottling from kegs (asemok)
  Re: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? (Monterey)" <meekerj@monterey.navy.mil>
  RE: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? ("Jason Henning")
  Subject: Re: Oxygenation and yeast (Steven Parfitt)
  Wierd phenomenon (Randy Ricchi)
  Diacetyl ("A.J deLange")
  HOPS BOPS XXII ("ubu")
  Re: stock pots (Jeff Renner)
  Is it 2010 already? ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: Increasing Diacetyl (Jeff Renner)
  Igloo Cooler with Water Heater Element ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: Pumping Sparge Water (Kent Fletcher)
  Write an essay and win a brewing Course at UC Davis (Don Van Valkenburg)
  Bottling ("Peed, John")
  FG experiment ("Jeremy Lenzendorf")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:41:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Kligerman <homebre973 at yahoo.com>
Subject: oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning?

I have read some conflicting opinions on Oxyclean. 
Can it be used for cleaing and sanitation on beer
making equipmentsuch as kegs, carboys, or plastic
fermenters?  Is it good for sanitation without any
other treatment?  Presently I use 1 TBS bleach/gallon.
 
Andy from Hillsborough



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:22:26 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: air in suction line

>Is it possible that the
>suction is creating enough of a vacuum to cause air to be pulled out of
>the water at 165F?

No one else has jumped on this thread so I guess I will.  As any mountain 
climber, pilot, or resident of Denver can tell you, water boils at temps 
lower than 100 (212) at higher altitudes.  On a standard pressure day 
(29.92) at 25,000 feet, water boils at 72.9 (163.3).  Your pump inlet is 
most likely at a lower pressure than that exerted by the atmosphere at 
25,000 feet.  Long story short, as long as your pump isn't cavitating and 
running dry, not to worry, you're creating steam and not oxygenating your 
wort.  It is probably a good idea to throttle back the flow rate (close a 
valve a little bit) on the pressure side sufficiently to ensure the low 
pressure side isn't causing your wort to boil inline.

FWIW,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego


For we could not now take time for further search (to land our ship), our 
victuals being much spent, especially our beer.

>From the log of The Mayflower. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:23:57 -0500
From: asemok at mac.com
Subject: Re: bottling from kegs


On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, asemok at mac. wrote:

> ... just popped a bottle of Scotch Ale
> brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and stored in bottle at cellar temps
> and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes.  After 15 years!!!!

Wow.  One bottle too many I guess.
I'm not THAT bad at math.  Really.
cheers,
A



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:44:01 -0200
From: "Meeker, James P FC1 (Monterey)" <meekerj at monterey.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element?

Anthony Cresrenzi asked about adding a heater coil to a cooler to make a
brew kettle.

It seems to me that this might caramelize a lot of wort in the same manner
as heated stones do. It might also be a pain to clean up.

There are a lot of plans available to make HLT's that way. I'm sure if you
do a Google search you can find some. (I don't have the bandwidth or I'd do
it right now). There was an article in BYO a couple of months ago that
described how to do just that.

Todd in Ft Collins is absolutely right about me. The party gyle suggestion
is a great idea as I'll have to do a high gravity beer and a lawnmower beer
as soon as I get back home.

Jim at Sea
Rennerian Coordinates: CLASSIFIED



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:55:04 -0500
From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com>
Subject: RE: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element?

In HBD 4739,  Anthony Cresrenzi asks if he can put a water heater element in 
an Igloo cooler and mash, use for a sparge tank and a boil kettle in them.

Yes and no.

I called Igloo/Rubbermaid a few years ago about this. They are designed for 
hot beverages and can withstand 170F temperatures. The gal I talked to said 
the cooler (or would that be "warmer" for this application?) may warp a bit. 
I have seen this in my coolers, vertical ripples. It doesn't seem to have 
weakened the inner shell.

Would you be using an element for a hot liquor tank or mash tun? Not sure 
how they would mount or how they might effect the cooler.

Cheers,
Jason Henning

Dead Lake, MI 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:17:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Oxygenation and yeast

With all the talk of airiation of starters, I got to
wondering if it is even necessary to use an air stone
in the wort.

It would seem to me that air from an aquarium pump
through a hepa filter and injected from a tube that
descends down in the starter falsk would be enough. It
would continually purge the air in the flask removing
CO2, and provide a near 18% O2 atmosphere that the
vortex should pull into solution.

Yes, No, Maybe?

Steven

Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968


		


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:20:43 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Wierd phenomenon

Al (asemok at mac.com) posts from the year 2010:
>In fact I just popped a bottle of Scotch Ale
brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and stored in bottle at cellar temps
and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes.  After 15 years!!!! <

:^)





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:48:55 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Diacetyl

Probably the best way to increase diacetyl without ruining the beer 
otherwise is to use a diacetyl producing strain and skip the diacetyl 
rest. A valine-poor wort will increase diacetyl but the last time I 
asked the guy at the HB store for some low valine malt he just looked at 
me as if I'd said something funny.

As far as knowing how much you find tolerable you could obtain some 
diacetyl from a chemical supply house and doctor low diacetyl beer with 
it to see what the various levels taste/feel like. A very small quantity 
will be sufficient for many, many experiments of this sort.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:21 -0500
From: "ubu" <ubu.roi at verizon.net>
Subject: HOPS BOPS XXII

Homebrewers of Philadelphia and Suburbs
(HOPS)

Presents

Best of Philly Homebrew Competition
(BOPS)

A BJCP Sanctioned Event
(22nd in a Series)

Saturday, April 16, 2005 10 am
Sponsored By:  Homesweet Homebrew  http://www.homesweethomebrew.com/

Hosted By:  Nodding Head Brewery & Restaurant   http://www.noddinghead.com/

Entry drop-off/mail-in locations, guidelines, requirements and forms
available at:  http://hopsclub.org/

HOPS accepts ANY standard entry and bottle form
Entries accepted 03/28/05 - 04/09/05 (04/13/05 for mail in)

See ya there!




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:14:00 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: stock pots

  John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com> writes from Georgia, VT (is 
that confusing or what?  I thought Georgia was part of the former 
USSR):

>I just got a catalog in the mail today.  Looks like a good deal on aluminum
>stock pots.  I know there is the whole Al v. SS thing but for those that might
>be interested:
>http://www.agrisupplyco.com/cgi-bin/cgipagls?s=stock+pot

According to the listings, some of these are 2 mm thick and others 
are 4 mm.  Only the 16 and 40 qt. were 4  mm.  I can't imagine a 100 
qt. pot being very rigid at only 2 mm thick.  You'd have to worry 
about hot spots, too, I would think.

I have 40 qt. 5 mm thick stock pots for my propane fired RIMS.  I 
don't think I'd feel comfortable with less than 4 mm.  Fastening a 
spigot would likely be a problem with thin walled pots, too.

40 qts. is a nice size.  I can brew 8 gallons to just fill a 7.75 
gallon Sankey 1/4 barrel keg.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:45:32 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Is it 2010 already?


> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:06:21 -0500
> From: asemok at mac.com
> Subject: Re: bottling from kegs
> 
>  In fact I just popped a 
> bottle of Scotch Ale brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and 
> stored in bottle at cellar temps 
> and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes.  After 15 
> years!!!!   

That must have been one strong Scotch Ale! Friends don't let friends do
arithmetic while drunk. ;-)

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:45:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Increasing Diacetyl

Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> writes from just down the 
road in South Bend, Indiana

>JeffR's post about "dropping" mentioned that it increased diacetyl,
>which he doesn't seem to like.

You are right - I have a low threshold to it and don't like it much 
above the level at which I can detect it.  I can find it augments the 
maltiness of a British pale ale or a Bohemian Pilsner, but they often 
are way too high.  I can actually find a bit of it OK in an Irish ale.

Brakspear of Hensley on Thames (well, actually, they've moved) 
http://www.brakspear-beers.co.uk/brakspear_new_drop.htm touts "the 
special delicate butterscotch flavours for which Brakspear Bitter is 
acclaimed. "

German brewmaster Fred Scheer (of Bosco's in Nashville) says that 
German brewers disparage Pilsner Urquell as "Diacetylator."  It robs 
a beer of crispness, which is what Germans want in a Pils, whereas a 
BoPils is more malty.

By the time PU in bottles gets here, the diacetyl has often 
increased, from oxidation of the precursor, presumably, to unpleasant 
levels

>So... Is there a rundown of ways to increase diacetyl levels?

The late George fix's article at 
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html 
is still an excellent source of info.  Of course, the title, 
"Diacetyl: Formation, Reduction, and Control," will tell you 
something about how much people in general want to increase it.  But 
it will give hints on how to increase it if you really want to.

One thing is to choose a yeast that produces high levels.  The true 
Ringwood ale yeast, as used in Pugsley pubs 
http://www.wowpages.com/pugsley/, requires additional O2 part way 
through the fermentation, so they pump over the fermenting wort in a 
fountain.  This inevitably produces a level of diacetyl that is not 
reduced completely in the final beer, which is why I almost never 
drink at our local Pugsley brewpub, Grizzly Peak, despite the 
otherwise high quality of their beers and the skill of their brewer, 
a former homebrewer and AABG member, who has tried to convince me, 
arguing "what's a little diacetyl among friends?"

Some lager yeasts are more prone than others, as well.

Then do a second aeration on the second day, and don't do a diacetyl 
rest (see Fix above).

Then don't invite me down for a beer.  ;-)

Jeff



- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 8:57:25 -0600
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Igloo Cooler with Water Heater Element

Anthony Cresrenzi asks about using a heater element with
 an igloo cooler.  I don't have hard figures, but 
anecdotally it seems like a bad idea.

Why?  Because my mash tun, an Igloo cooler, has some 
warped spots from when my boiling water for step raises
apparently stayed in contact with the cooler side for a 
little too long.  Although I have never seen a problem 
from standard mash temps, there have been times when 
I've done a multi-step infusion (raising temps with 
boiling water) that I have noticed warping in the 
interior wall of the cooler.

If that happens when the heat is quickly dispersed, as 
in a mash, it seems that a continuous boil would really 
cause some issues with deformation of the plastic.  
Perhaps plastic degradation and structural instability 
would result (the latter seems unlikely, but would 
really be a disaster with 5 - 10 gallons of boiling 
water or wort suddenly making an exit from the vessel).

Rick Theiner



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:13:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pumping Sparge Water

Steve Jones is wondering about the bubbles in his line
when pumping sparge water.

> Is it possible that the suction is creating enough 
> of a vacuum to cause air to be pulled out of the
> water at 165F?

Air, no, at least not in any appreciable amount, but
water vapor, yes.  

We all know that the boiling point of water lowers
with increased altitude, and this is due to lower air
pressure.  Water will boil at sparge temps if
subjected to about 15" of vacuum.  

Now, can a typical 1/25 hp centrifugal mag drive pump
create that much suction head?  My guess would be
probably not (especially with the HLT valve open).  We
know it certainly can't pull any suction head with
air, or it would be self-priming.  But keeping in mind
that you are talking about a relatively small number
of bubbles, I think that the local lower pressure is
indeed causing evaporation, creating the bubbles you
see.

Think I'll put a tee in my pump suction line and
throug a vacuum gauge on it, see just how much my
Little Giant will pull.

Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:04:43 -0800
From: Don Van Valkenburg <brewing at earthlink.net>
Subject: Write an essay and win a brewing Course at UC Davis 

We have received surprisingly few entries in this competition that was 
announced in January with a deadline of May 1.

Write a short essay and tell us why you are passionate about brewing and 
you may receive paid tuition ($1195) to the UC Davis's short course 
"Intensive Brewing Science for Practical Brewing .

This is one of two schools funded by California Fermentation Society 
with it's scholarship funds. 

Our major fund raising activity is the Los Angeles County Fair Beer 
Competition which is heading into its fourth successful year. It is this 
event that offers us the opportunity to both educate the public about 
the variety and quality of beers available in this region and raise 
money to send brewers to Siebel Institute and UC Davis.

This year we are offering to send a brewer to UC Davis's Extension 
course titled "Intensive Brewing Science for Practical Brewing 
<http://universityextension.ucdavis.edu/brewing/brew_science.asp>".   
This program is intended for entry level brewing industry professionals. 
It is of special interest to less experienced brewery employees who need 
technical training to enable them to understand how their jobs fit into 
the larger context of brewery operations.    It is NOT a homebrewing 
course as they teach everything on a big system, however, it may be of 
interest to some homebrewers who have aspirations of going professional. 

Apply for the UC Davis directly to CFS. Simply describe in 100 words or 
less why you brew. In other words; what is it about brewing that lights 
your fire. Also, include a short statement regarding your level of 
experience. That can be something like; "serious homebrewer for 10 
years; or brewer's assistant for two years.

The decision will not necessarily be based on experience, but the 
applicant should have a good understanding of the brewing process. The 
final decision will be based purely on a subjective evaluation of the 
applicants' description of why he/she loves brewing. In the event of 
similar essays, a random drawing will be held.

The Davis Scholarship does not include transportation or lodging. 
Deadline for entries is May 1, 2005. Applicants must be able to attend 
the June 20-24, 2005 course.

Send your application to:
Stein Fillers Brewing Supply
4160 Norse Way
Long Beach, California, 90808

We also fund scholarships at Siebel Institute.
For information regarding Siebel scholarships please go to: 
http://www.siebelinstitute.com/registration/scholarship.html 
<http://www.siebelinstitute.com/>

Be sure to include on your application: Name, address, phone, email.
Not open to board members of CFS or their family.

Info about us can be found at www.calferm.org




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:37:02 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Bottling


I've been busting my butt for a year or two trying to come up with effective
counter-pressure bottling techniques that will allow filtered, carbonated
beer to be bottled without oxidation and other off flavors.  My results are
improving, but I just got results back from a major competition and at least
two of four entries were flagged for oxidized flavors (it's always the hoppy
beers that fare the worst).  So now a couple of people are saying on HBD
that better results are obtained by simply filling from the tap?  I'm
finding that very hard to believe.  Does anyone who fills directly from the
tap enter these beers in competitions?  If so, how do you fare?  Is there
anyone out there who has actually tried both counter-pressure bottling and
tap-filled bottling and decided that tap-filled is better?  'Cause I really
have my doubts about that.  In my experience, simpler is not better - it's
just simpler.  And most of the time, the results are not as good.  I don't
think people design complexity into their systems and processes just to have
something to crow about; I think complexity gives control and allows
refinements of results.  But I must say, I'd love to be able to bottle from
the tap successfully, because this CPBF thing is not as simple as it's made
out to be.

Interesting threads on stirred starters.  Is the point to introduce oxygen
throughout the entire fermentation?  Jeff, you're the only one I've heard of
who pumps air into the starter.  I thought the purpose was to oxygenate at
first, then (??? I'm not sure, but my impression is that mechanical
agitation is supposed to be beneficial).  Also, I thought that aeration was
detrimental after fermentation actually starts.  Please enlighten me on how
this works.  

Another thing I keep seeing is aeration with ambient air (Jeff mentions it,
among many others).  I don't understand why you would filter your starter
air but aerate the wort with whatever air happens to be in your little
corner of the world at the time.  Nor do I understand why people talk about
splash-stirring their wort, or pumping vigorously to mix with ambient air,
then going to the trouble to use a fermentation lock to prevent contact with
ambient air, which is supposed to be fraught with bacteria and nasty wild
yeasts.  Is this not a contradiction?  

And one more thing (yes, I'm long-winded, but I don't post often, so it all
evens out, eh?).  I would like to swap beers or recipes of American pale
ales, British ales, IPAs and cream ales that have won major competitions,
'cause I'm getting pretty curious as to what the judges want.  Sometimes I
win gold and sometimes, with what I consider an equal or better beer, I
don't even place.  I'm trying to figure out of it's recipe-related or more
related to problems I'm having with bottling.  I'm particularly interested
in major west coast competitions, MCAB qualifiers and national winners.
Understand, I am not in your league yet, but I think I'm close, and I want
to get there.  I'm a very demanding brewer who has been brewing for years
(off and on for decades, actually), but I'm still learning.  If you are
interested in swapping some beer or recipes, please e-mail me.

John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:11:53 -0600
From: "Jeremy Lenzendorf" <jlenzendorf at ingeniumpd.com>
Subject: FG experiment

Hello all,
 
I'm going to use homebrewing as the basis for an experiment in my DOE
class testing the significance of yeast variety and temperature on the
final specific gravity of a 1.040 wort.
 
It's going to be a 2^2 factorial design experiment.  I plan to brew a 5
gallon batch, fill 16 liter bottles, add a packet of yeast (ale/lager)
to each, and place in two temperature zones (basement/bedroom).  I'll
record the time it takes to reach a final gravity, but I don't plan to
include this in the analysis.
 
My question are thus:
 
1. I don't mind buying two cases of 1 liter swing top bottles; I'll use
them again.  But how can I get around buying an air lock for each one?
 
2. Will adding a packet of yeast to each liter sample be okay, or should
I divide the initial five gallon into four parts, add the yeast and
divide again into four liters?
 
Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Jeremy
West Bend, WI



Return to table of contents

---