HOMEBREW Digest #4740 Wed 16 March 2005

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  oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning? (Andrew Kligerman)
  air in suction line ("Chad Stevens")
  Re: bottling from kegs (asemok)
  Re: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? (Monterey)" <meekerj@monterey.navy.mil>
  RE: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? ("Jason Henning")
  Subject: Re: Oxygenation and yeast (Steven Parfitt)
  Wierd phenomenon (Randy Ricchi)
  Diacetyl ("A.J deLange")
  HOPS BOPS XXII ("ubu")
  Re: stock pots (Jeff Renner)
  Is it 2010 already? ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: Increasing Diacetyl (Jeff Renner)
  Igloo Cooler with Water Heater Element ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Re: Pumping Sparge Water (Kent Fletcher)
  Write an essay and win a brewing Course at UC Davis (Don Van Valkenburg)
  Bottling ("Peed, John")
  FG experiment ("Jeremy Lenzendorf")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:41:26 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew Kligerman <homebre973 at yahoo.com> Subject: oxyclean for sanitation and cleaning? I have read some conflicting opinions on Oxyclean. Can it be used for cleaing and sanitation on beer making equipmentsuch as kegs, carboys, or plastic fermenters? Is it good for sanitation without any other treatment? Presently I use 1 TBS bleach/gallon. Andy from Hillsborough Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:22:26 -0800 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: air in suction line >Is it possible that the >suction is creating enough of a vacuum to cause air to be pulled out of >the water at 165F? No one else has jumped on this thread so I guess I will. As any mountain climber, pilot, or resident of Denver can tell you, water boils at temps lower than 100 (212) at higher altitudes. On a standard pressure day (29.92) at 25,000 feet, water boils at 72.9 (163.3). Your pump inlet is most likely at a lower pressure than that exerted by the atmosphere at 25,000 feet. Long story short, as long as your pump isn't cavitating and running dry, not to worry, you're creating steam and not oxygenating your wort. It is probably a good idea to throttle back the flow rate (close a valve a little bit) on the pressure side sufficiently to ensure the low pressure side isn't causing your wort to boil inline. FWIW, Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego For we could not now take time for further search (to land our ship), our victuals being much spent, especially our beer. >From the log of The Mayflower. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:23:57 -0500 From: asemok at mac.com Subject: Re: bottling from kegs On Mar 15, 2005, at 10:52 PM, asemok at mac. wrote: > ... just popped a bottle of Scotch Ale > brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and stored in bottle at cellar temps > and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes. After 15 years!!!! Wow. One bottle too many I guess. I'm not THAT bad at math. Really. cheers, A Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:44:01 -0200 From: "Meeker, James P FC1 (Monterey)" <meekerj at monterey.navy.mil> Subject: Re: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? Anthony Cresrenzi asked about adding a heater coil to a cooler to make a brew kettle. It seems to me that this might caramelize a lot of wort in the same manner as heated stones do. It might also be a pain to clean up. There are a lot of plans available to make HLT's that way. I'm sure if you do a Google search you can find some. (I don't have the bandwidth or I'd do it right now). There was an article in BYO a couple of months ago that described how to do just that. Todd in Ft Collins is absolutely right about me. The party gyle suggestion is a great idea as I'll have to do a high gravity beer and a lawnmower beer as soon as I get back home. Jim at Sea Rennerian Coordinates: CLASSIFIED Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:55:04 -0500 From: "Jason Henning" <jason at thehennings.com> Subject: RE: Can I use an Igloo type cooler with a water heater element? In HBD 4739, Anthony Cresrenzi asks if he can put a water heater element in an Igloo cooler and mash, use for a sparge tank and a boil kettle in them. Yes and no. I called Igloo/Rubbermaid a few years ago about this. They are designed for hot beverages and can withstand 170F temperatures. The gal I talked to said the cooler (or would that be "warmer" for this application?) may warp a bit. I have seen this in my coolers, vertical ripples. It doesn't seem to have weakened the inner shell. Would you be using an element for a hot liquor tank or mash tun? Not sure how they would mount or how they might effect the cooler. Cheers, Jason Henning Dead Lake, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com> Subject: Subject: Re: Oxygenation and yeast With all the talk of airiation of starters, I got to wondering if it is even necessary to use an air stone in the wort. It would seem to me that air from an aquarium pump through a hepa filter and injected from a tube that descends down in the starter falsk would be enough. It would continually purge the air in the flask removing CO2, and provide a near 18% O2 atmosphere that the vortex should pull into solution. Yes, No, Maybe? Steven Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian "There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:20:43 -0500 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us> Subject: Wierd phenomenon Al (asemok at mac.com) posts from the year 2010: >In fact I just popped a bottle of Scotch Ale brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and stored in bottle at cellar temps and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes. After 15 years!!!! < :^) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:48:55 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Diacetyl Probably the best way to increase diacetyl without ruining the beer otherwise is to use a diacetyl producing strain and skip the diacetyl rest. A valine-poor wort will increase diacetyl but the last time I asked the guy at the HB store for some low valine malt he just looked at me as if I'd said something funny. As far as knowing how much you find tolerable you could obtain some diacetyl from a chemical supply house and doctor low diacetyl beer with it to see what the various levels taste/feel like. A very small quantity will be sufficient for many, many experiments of this sort. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:18:21 -0500 From: "ubu" <ubu.roi at verizon.net> Subject: HOPS BOPS XXII Homebrewers of Philadelphia and Suburbs (HOPS) Presents Best of Philly Homebrew Competition (BOPS) A BJCP Sanctioned Event (22nd in a Series) Saturday, April 16, 2005 10 am Sponsored By: Homesweet Homebrew http://www.homesweethomebrew.com/ Hosted By: Nodding Head Brewery & Restaurant http://www.noddinghead.com/ Entry drop-off/mail-in locations, guidelines, requirements and forms available at: http://hopsclub.org/ HOPS accepts ANY standard entry and bottle form Entries accepted 03/28/05 - 04/09/05 (04/13/05 for mail in) See ya there! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:14:00 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: stock pots John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com> writes from Georgia, VT (is that confusing or what? I thought Georgia was part of the former USSR): >I just got a catalog in the mail today. Looks like a good deal on aluminum >stock pots. I know there is the whole Al v. SS thing but for those that might >be interested: >http://www.agrisupplyco.com/cgi-bin/cgipagls?s=stock+pot According to the listings, some of these are 2 mm thick and others are 4 mm. Only the 16 and 40 qt. were 4 mm. I can't imagine a 100 qt. pot being very rigid at only 2 mm thick. You'd have to worry about hot spots, too, I would think. I have 40 qt. 5 mm thick stock pots for my propane fired RIMS. I don't think I'd feel comfortable with less than 4 mm. Fastening a spigot would likely be a problem with thin walled pots, too. 40 qts. is a nice size. I can brew 8 gallons to just fill a 7.75 gallon Sankey 1/4 barrel keg. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:45:32 -0600 From: "Brian Lundeen" <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: Is it 2010 already? > Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:06:21 -0500 > From: asemok at mac.com > Subject: Re: bottling from kegs > > In fact I just popped a > bottle of Scotch Ale brewed in 1994, bottled in '95, and > stored in bottle at cellar temps > and it was smooth as silk with no off tastes. After 15 > years!!!! That must have been one strong Scotch Ale! Friends don't let friends do arithmetic while drunk. ;-) Cheers Brian, in Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:45:52 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net> Subject: Re: Increasing Diacetyl Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu> writes from just down the road in South Bend, Indiana >JeffR's post about "dropping" mentioned that it increased diacetyl, >which he doesn't seem to like. You are right - I have a low threshold to it and don't like it much above the level at which I can detect it. I can find it augments the maltiness of a British pale ale or a Bohemian Pilsner, but they often are way too high. I can actually find a bit of it OK in an Irish ale. Brakspear of Hensley on Thames (well, actually, they've moved) http://www.brakspear-beers.co.uk/brakspear_new_drop.htm touts "the special delicate butterscotch flavours for which Brakspear Bitter is acclaimed. " German brewmaster Fred Scheer (of Bosco's in Nashville) says that German brewers disparage Pilsner Urquell as "Diacetylator." It robs a beer of crispness, which is what Germans want in a Pils, whereas a BoPils is more malty. By the time PU in bottles gets here, the diacetyl has often increased, from oxidation of the precursor, presumably, to unpleasant levels >So... Is there a rundown of ways to increase diacetyl levels? The late George fix's article at http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html is still an excellent source of info. Of course, the title, "Diacetyl: Formation, Reduction, and Control," will tell you something about how much people in general want to increase it. But it will give hints on how to increase it if you really want to. One thing is to choose a yeast that produces high levels. The true Ringwood ale yeast, as used in Pugsley pubs http://www.wowpages.com/pugsley/, requires additional O2 part way through the fermentation, so they pump over the fermenting wort in a fountain. This inevitably produces a level of diacetyl that is not reduced completely in the final beer, which is why I almost never drink at our local Pugsley brewpub, Grizzly Peak, despite the otherwise high quality of their beers and the skill of their brewer, a former homebrewer and AABG member, who has tried to convince me, arguing "what's a little diacetyl among friends?" Some lager yeasts are more prone than others, as well. Then do a second aeration on the second day, and don't do a diacetyl rest (see Fix above). Then don't invite me down for a beer. ;-) Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 8:57:25 -0600 From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net> Subject: Igloo Cooler with Water Heater Element Anthony Cresrenzi asks about using a heater element with an igloo cooler. I don't have hard figures, but anecdotally it seems like a bad idea. Why? Because my mash tun, an Igloo cooler, has some warped spots from when my boiling water for step raises apparently stayed in contact with the cooler side for a little too long. Although I have never seen a problem from standard mash temps, there have been times when I've done a multi-step infusion (raising temps with boiling water) that I have noticed warping in the interior wall of the cooler. If that happens when the heat is quickly dispersed, as in a mash, it seems that a continuous boil would really cause some issues with deformation of the plastic. Perhaps plastic degradation and structural instability would result (the latter seems unlikely, but would really be a disaster with 5 - 10 gallons of boiling water or wort suddenly making an exit from the vessel). Rick Theiner Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:13:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pumping Sparge Water Steve Jones is wondering about the bubbles in his line when pumping sparge water. > Is it possible that the suction is creating enough > of a vacuum to cause air to be pulled out of the > water at 165F? Air, no, at least not in any appreciable amount, but water vapor, yes. We all know that the boiling point of water lowers with increased altitude, and this is due to lower air pressure. Water will boil at sparge temps if subjected to about 15" of vacuum. Now, can a typical 1/25 hp centrifugal mag drive pump create that much suction head? My guess would be probably not (especially with the HLT valve open). We know it certainly can't pull any suction head with air, or it would be self-priming. But keeping in mind that you are talking about a relatively small number of bubbles, I think that the local lower pressure is indeed causing evaporation, creating the bubbles you see. Think I'll put a tee in my pump suction line and throug a vacuum gauge on it, see just how much my Little Giant will pull. Kent Fletcher Brewing in So Cal Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:04:43 -0800 From: Don Van Valkenburg <brewing at earthlink.net> Subject: Write an essay and win a brewing Course at UC Davis We have received surprisingly few entries in this competition that was announced in January with a deadline of May 1. Write a short essay and tell us why you are passionate about brewing and you may receive paid tuition ($1195) to the UC Davis's short course "Intensive Brewing Science for Practical Brewing . This is one of two schools funded by California Fermentation Society with it's scholarship funds. Our major fund raising activity is the Los Angeles County Fair Beer Competition which is heading into its fourth successful year. It is this event that offers us the opportunity to both educate the public about the variety and quality of beers available in this region and raise money to send brewers to Siebel Institute and UC Davis. This year we are offering to send a brewer to UC Davis's Extension course titled "Intensive Brewing Science for Practical Brewing <http://universityextension.ucdavis.edu/brewing/brew_science.asp>". This program is intended for entry level brewing industry professionals. It is of special interest to less experienced brewery employees who need technical training to enable them to understand how their jobs fit into the larger context of brewery operations. It is NOT a homebrewing course as they teach everything on a big system, however, it may be of interest to some homebrewers who have aspirations of going professional. Apply for the UC Davis directly to CFS. Simply describe in 100 words or less why you brew. In other words; what is it about brewing that lights your fire. Also, include a short statement regarding your level of experience. That can be something like; "serious homebrewer for 10 years; or brewer's assistant for two years. The decision will not necessarily be based on experience, but the applicant should have a good understanding of the brewing process. The final decision will be based purely on a subjective evaluation of the applicants' description of why he/she loves brewing. In the event of similar essays, a random drawing will be held. The Davis Scholarship does not include transportation or lodging. Deadline for entries is May 1, 2005. Applicants must be able to attend the June 20-24, 2005 course. Send your application to: Stein Fillers Brewing Supply 4160 Norse Way Long Beach, California, 90808 We also fund scholarships at Siebel Institute. For information regarding Siebel scholarships please go to: http://www.siebelinstitute.com/registration/scholarship.html <http://www.siebelinstitute.com/> Be sure to include on your application: Name, address, phone, email. Not open to board members of CFS or their family. Info about us can be found at www.calferm.org Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:37:02 -0800 From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com> Subject: Bottling I've been busting my butt for a year or two trying to come up with effective counter-pressure bottling techniques that will allow filtered, carbonated beer to be bottled without oxidation and other off flavors. My results are improving, but I just got results back from a major competition and at least two of four entries were flagged for oxidized flavors (it's always the hoppy beers that fare the worst). So now a couple of people are saying on HBD that better results are obtained by simply filling from the tap? I'm finding that very hard to believe. Does anyone who fills directly from the tap enter these beers in competitions? If so, how do you fare? Is there anyone out there who has actually tried both counter-pressure bottling and tap-filled bottling and decided that tap-filled is better? 'Cause I really have my doubts about that. In my experience, simpler is not better - it's just simpler. And most of the time, the results are not as good. I don't think people design complexity into their systems and processes just to have something to crow about; I think complexity gives control and allows refinements of results. But I must say, I'd love to be able to bottle from the tap successfully, because this CPBF thing is not as simple as it's made out to be. Interesting threads on stirred starters. Is the point to introduce oxygen throughout the entire fermentation? Jeff, you're the only one I've heard of who pumps air into the starter. I thought the purpose was to oxygenate at first, then (??? I'm not sure, but my impression is that mechanical agitation is supposed to be beneficial). Also, I thought that aeration was detrimental after fermentation actually starts. Please enlighten me on how this works. Another thing I keep seeing is aeration with ambient air (Jeff mentions it, among many others). I don't understand why you would filter your starter air but aerate the wort with whatever air happens to be in your little corner of the world at the time. Nor do I understand why people talk about splash-stirring their wort, or pumping vigorously to mix with ambient air, then going to the trouble to use a fermentation lock to prevent contact with ambient air, which is supposed to be fraught with bacteria and nasty wild yeasts. Is this not a contradiction? And one more thing (yes, I'm long-winded, but I don't post often, so it all evens out, eh?). I would like to swap beers or recipes of American pale ales, British ales, IPAs and cream ales that have won major competitions, 'cause I'm getting pretty curious as to what the judges want. Sometimes I win gold and sometimes, with what I consider an equal or better beer, I don't even place. I'm trying to figure out of it's recipe-related or more related to problems I'm having with bottling. I'm particularly interested in major west coast competitions, MCAB qualifiers and national winners. Understand, I am not in your league yet, but I think I'm close, and I want to get there. I'm a very demanding brewer who has been brewing for years (off and on for decades, actually), but I'm still learning. If you are interested in swapping some beer or recipes, please e-mail me. John Peed Oak Ridge, TN Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:11:53 -0600 From: "Jeremy Lenzendorf" <jlenzendorf at ingeniumpd.com> Subject: FG experiment Hello all, I'm going to use homebrewing as the basis for an experiment in my DOE class testing the significance of yeast variety and temperature on the final specific gravity of a 1.040 wort. It's going to be a 2^2 factorial design experiment. I plan to brew a 5 gallon batch, fill 16 liter bottles, add a packet of yeast (ale/lager) to each, and place in two temperature zones (basement/bedroom). I'll record the time it takes to reach a final gravity, but I don't plan to include this in the analysis. My question are thus: 1. I don't mind buying two cases of 1 liter swing top bottles; I'll use them again. But how can I get around buying an air lock for each one? 2. Will adding a packet of yeast to each liter sample be okay, or should I divide the initial five gallon into four parts, add the yeast and divide again into four liters? Thanks in advance for any advice. Jeremy West Bend, WI Return to table of contents
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