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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  invert sugar/candi sugar ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  Re: Harshness (perhaps staling?) (Fred Johnson)
  Tannins at the end of the sparge ("May, Jeff")
  Subject: help (RE pitching smack pack) (Steven Parfitt)
  Candi Sugar Inverted? (Randy Mosher)
  RE: Attention So. CA, So. NV, AZ, NM, TX, LA OK and AR homebrewers... ("Meyer, Aaron D.")
  Food-grade glue/sealer ("Jacobson, Jim")
  Beet vs Cane sugar ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Harshness / candi sugar (Matt)
  Beer Stores in Houston (Peter Torgrimson)
  Re: help ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: chang'aa kills 49 Kenyans ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: Re: help ("Pat Babcock")
  re: Help with Harshness (RI_homebrewer)


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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 01:28:10 -0400
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: invert sugar/candi sugar

Invert sugar is produced from sucrose by adding invertase and/or acid 
and heat. This breaks down sucrose (disaccharide) into its two 
components: fructose and glucose (monosaccharides). Pure invert sugars 
do not normally crystalize. Belgian candi sugar, which is crystalized, 
is NOT pure invert sugar. It is derived from sugar beets, as are many 
European table sugars. Thus, it might be argued that Belgian candi sugar 
tastes subtly different from American table sugar, which in most cases 
comes from sugar cane.

I have heard that Unibroue (Quebec) uses regular table sugar (sucrose 
from sugar cane) in its Belgian style beers. They still taste pretty 
good to me! IMHO, Belgian Candi sugar (sucrose from beets)  at  $4 per 
pound is a waste of money when you can get table sugar (sucrose from 
cane) for much less.

Sincerely,
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Beer data: http://hbd.org/ensmingr/






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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:51:45 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at portbridge.com>
Subject: Re: Harshness (perhaps staling?)

Regarding the loss of fresh hop flavor or perhaps increased "harshness" 
that occurs in my beers over a few weeks time, several have suggested 
problems with the water, especially the presence of a high sulfate.  I 
had suspected the water a long time ago, so I started using the RO 
water from the nearby grocery store refill station. Very little mineral 
additions have been made (no sulfate added) and the beers still have 
the same problem.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:18:11 -0400
From: "May, Jeff" <Jeff.May at uscellular.com>
Subject: Tannins at the end of the sparge

Jeff Renner got me thinking about tannins, and that's a good thing.  How do
you know when to stop sparging in order to minimize tannins.  I usually just
collect enough for the batch and never give it a second thought. I know it
probably is not an issue with bigger beers, but I routinely keep a 5 gal
batch of lawn mower beer one tap made from 6# of grain.  A lot of time I
batch sparge (depending on how much time I have).  However, when I use a
conventional sparge, I usually get ~95% efficiency according to ProMash.
This has me worried that I may be over sparging.  Oh, and I don't currently
have any way to measure or change the pH.

Jeff May
Wilmington, NC
AR[649.7,148.6]



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 05:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: help (RE pitching smack pack)

KEITH R BUSBY Pondereth apitfching from a smack pack 

>Brewed an ESB yesterday. Oxygenated 15 secs, and 
>piched Wyeast 1028 (May 2005). I had smacked the pack
>at 9:30a but there was no visible 
>swelling by pitching at 2p. Today at 10:30 there is 
>no visible activity and the water in the airlock is
>being sucked into the beer. Can anyone tell me
>what is going on and what to do?
>TIA.
>Keith
 .....snip.....

First, smack packs should be smacked several days in
advance. Some times you can get by with smacking a
real fresh one 24 hrs ahead of time, but it is best to
do it three days ahead and have a small flask of
starter wort to pitch it into if it swells too soon.

As to your current situation, if you have any dry
yeast on hand (compatible with the brew style) I'd
pitch it after mixing it with a half pint of warm
water and letting it set for 15 minutes then stir and
pour.

What kind of air lock are you using? There should not
be enough water in a 3-peice one to suck back into the
fermenter. If you are using a blow-off tube into a jar
with water in it, you may want to remove it and cover
the fermenter opening with aluminium foil until you
get some activity.

If you do not pitch any additional yeast, it should
take off in another day or so.

You could get another smack pack, smack it and wait
for it to swell, however the first one should have
gone active by then any way.

RDWHAHB. 

If it does not work out, learn from your mistakes.

Good luck.




Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:38:26 -0500
From: Randy Mosher <randymosher at rcn.com>
Subject: Candi Sugar Inverted?

Jeremy Hansen asked whether candi sugar is inverted or not. The question of
candi sugar has been a hot topic in the AHA forum recently, so I thought I'd
share my rather long post from a few days ago, with a few additions to
address the invert issue.

There is a tremendous amount of confusion on this subject among us
homebrewers right now. I think a lot of the problem is related to the
translation difficulties, and Belgian and American brewers assuming each
knows what the other is talking about.

Having just done the tech edit on Stan Heironymous' new book, Monk Brews,
this subject came up a number of times, and I think we finally got it
pounded into submission. Here goes.

"Candi" sugar may refer both to rock candy (which is what we Americans tend
to think it is) but also to a cooked liquid caramel syrup. In my experience,
this is more often to be case when a Belgian is talking. On old Belgian
labels and in brewing books, candi sugar invariably refers to the caramel
syrup. Properly made, this is a class III caramel and is made from invert
sugar combined with ammonium carbonate or similar source of nitrogen. The
rock candy is definitely not inverted, as invert sugar won't crystallize.

The two are not interchangeable. Caramel syrup has a considerable amount of
both color and flavor, and the flavors are of a distinctly rich caramelly
kind, quite different from semi-refined sugar. Here's a link to the Web site
of a sugar company in Belgium that sells both:

http://www.candico.be/industrieel/index3b800-600%20ENG.htm

The white rock candy is a waste of money. Sure, it's shiny and cool, but it
is identical in chemical composition to grocery store sugar. Cane or beet
does not matter--the molecules are the same (although your grocery store
probably has beet sugar if it makes you feel better). In Belgium, the rock
candy is not so expensive, which is why it's used. Jeff Sparrow (Wild Brews)
says the Belgian brewers laughed out loud when he told them how much we were
paying for the rock sugar.

I tried a little experiment and ground up some of the white, pale and "dark"
rock candy, and tried to tell the difference. The white and pale (yellowish)
ones were absolutely identical, and I think I might have been able to detect
the slightest hint of character in the "dark." I plan on getting this blind
in front of some judges and see what results I get.

For most brewing purposes, I prefer turbinado or similar semi-refined sugar,
or ethnic "concrete" sugars like piloncillo, jaggery and others. These were
widely used in brewing in England, Belgium and France less than a century
ago, so they're not such a bad fit with tradition.
 
- --Randy
 



|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

http://randymosherdesign.com

My new book! http://radicalbrewing.com


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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:44:52 -0500
From: "Meyer, Aaron D." <Aaron.Meyer at oneok.com>
Subject: RE: Attention So. CA, So. NV, AZ, NM, TX, LA OK and AR homebrewers...

>>> Asking about sports stadiums in the Southwest that serve craft
beers...

I'm not a sports fan, but on a recent trip to Oklahoma City, OK my wife
and I enjoyed a repose at Coach's Micro-Brewery / Restaurant in the
Bricktown area. I happened to notice that Coach's bar area abuts the
ballpark there and their balcony connects to the stadium seating. I
don't know if their beer is served in the stadium, but I would assume
that a thirsty sports fan could visit their bar / balcony without
leaving the stadium or miss the game.
Note this is in Oklahoma so their on premises beer is at most 3.2% ABV
just like the mega breweries - in spite of this their beer is decent.

To ensure this information is correct, I would recommend you call the
restaurant manager for details.



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:21:58 -0600
From: "Jacobson, Jim" <Jim.Jacobson at qwest.com>
Subject: Food-grade glue/sealer

Hi everyone, thanks to all for a great source of information.  
 
I have a stainless fermenter from MoreBeer and the gasket for the lid is
in need of repair.  The gasket is a piece of tubing, slit lengthwise (to
fit over the lid).  The ends are butted together and glued to form a
circle.
 
The glue joint has come undone and I am trying to repair the gasket.
MoreBeer suggested Superglue, but I'm not sure that it's food-grade.
 
Can you please help with any ideas (manufacturer, product name,
supplier, etc.) on a food-grade caulk/adhesive/sealer?
 
Thanks in advance for your help,
 
Jim Jacobson
Broomfield, CO



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:42:47 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Beet vs Cane sugar

Randy Mosher writes:

> Cane or beet does not matter--the molecules are the same 
> (although your grocery store
> probably has beet sugar if it makes you feel better).

Yes, the molecules are the same.  But if you open a bag of both and
sniff, you will notice that they don't smell quite the same.  A very
small amount of impurities make it through the refining process.  Will
these make a difference you can taste in your beer?  I really doubt it.

I have had people point out to me that cane sugar can act differently
from beet sugar in baking (one correspondant mentioned French Silk pie
as a recipe in which she had found a difference).  I have to assume that
this has to do with some difference in crystal size or shape in recipes
where the sugar is not completely dissolved, because I can't otherwise
explain it.  I have not tried looking at cane and beet sugar under a
microscope to see if I can detect a difference, though.

Yours in nit-picking,

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI



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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Harshness / candi sugar

Thanks to everyone who responded to my very vague plea for help with
harshness.  There were too many suggestions to list here, but one
tidbit from the past that may be worth repeating is that it's
incredibly cheap and easy to eliminate problems associated with
chlorine or chloramine in your water supply.  Posts in the archives by
A.J. deLange state that a small addition of campden (K metabisulfite)
will remove chlorine AND chloramine.  More precise numbers are
available--but his rule of thumb is one 686 mg tablet per 20 gallons.  

My plan for the future is to start treating in this fashion, stop using
bleach to clean/sanitize, replace my possibly chemical-infused hoses,
and hope things inprove.  If chlorine is the problem, should I expect
my latest effort (a hefeweizen brewed using the same process that gave
me problems before) to have less of a problem, because it is 70% wheat
(i.e. less husks --> less tannins --> less chlorophenols)?

- ------

I cannot definitively say whether candi sugar is invert sugar or not
(based on its texture I'd guess it contains both, whatever that really
means).  However, I can cast serious doubt over whether it matters in
the context of making Belgain ales.  Consider the following:

1. Ommegang's Hennepin reportedly uses 20% cane sugar (I don't have a
reference but you may be able to find it using a clever google search.)

2. Westvleteren supposedly uses "granulated sugar."  (Again no
reference but you may find this on the web somewhere if you look.)

3. Someone reported on the hbd forum that they were told that Unibroue
uses "plain white sugar" during the Unibroue tour.

4. The Chouffe brewmaster states in Rajotte's book that he uses plain
dextrose in La Chouffe.  He does use dark candi sugar in McChouffe, for
the color.

Hennepin, Unibroue, and Chouffe beers taste great to me (the Hennepin
maybe a bit grassy, but probably not from the choice of sugar...). 
Never had Westvleteren.

As for theory, I have never seen any plausible argument as to why
sucrose that is inverted before it is put into the wort should result
in a different tasting beer versus sucrose that is inverted in the wort
by the yeast.  Has anyone?

There are many practical issues (availability in liquid form,
tradition, etc) that may explain why some breweries use (or previously
used) invert sugar or candi sugar.  Perhaps at one point candi sugar
was the purest sugar readily available in Belgium.  These issues are at
least sufficient to explain why candi and invert sugar might be (or
might have been in the past) widely used over refined sucrose or
dextrose.

Of course, the caramelized sugars in candi sugar do contribute
_soemthing_.  Whatever it is, if you want it you do have the option of
making it on the stove with $0.50/lb sugar instead of paying $5/lb for
real candi.

Matt




		


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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:52:40 -0500
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Beer Stores in Houston

What is the best store for buying beer, particularly Belgians, in Houston?

Peter Torgrimson
Austin, TX





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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:01:00 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: help

On Sunday, 26 June 2005 at 10:36:13 -0500, KEITH R BUSBY wrote:
> Brewed an ESB yesterday. Oxygenated 15 secs, and piched Wyeast 1028 (May
> 2005). I had smacked the pack at 9:30a but there was no visible swelling
> ny pitching at 2p. Today at 10:30 there is no visible activity and the
> water in the airlock is being sucked into the beer. Can anyone tell me
> what is going on and what to do?

Pray?

4 hours is not long enough for a smack pack to swell properly; I seem
to remember a rule of thumb of "1 day per month age".  In that case,
you should have waited a day or two.  Whichever way, you should wait
until the smack pack is bulging before pitching.  I've had to wait up
to nearly a week.

That doesn't mean that it won't ferment.  But it will take the yeast
longer to get active if it's pitched in that state, so it might be
several days before you see activity.  That's a danger period for the
beer, because it gives other organisms a better chance to get
established than they would have had if you had pitched a vigorous
starter.  But there's every chance that the beer will be none the
worse for its experience.

The water being sucked into the beer could mean that the yeast is
using up the available oxygen in the wort, which would be a good
sign.  More likely it's a sign that the temperature has dropped since
you pitched, which is neither good nor bad.

Greg
- --
The virus contained in this message was not detected.

Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:02:33 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: chang'aa kills 49 Kenyans

On Sunday, 26 June 2005 at 15:14:54 -0400, Peter A. Ensminger wrote:
> A June 26 CNN news item reported that 174 people were hospitalized and
> 49 Kenyans died after consuming chang'aa, an illegal corn-based homebrew
> that is laced with methanol. Chang'aa is also known as "Rapid Results".
>
> The liver converts methanol into formaldehyde and then formic acid,
> which can lead severe liver toxicity, blindness, and death. Methanol
> poisoning has many similaities to ethylene glycol (antifreeze)
> poisoning. Consumption of ethylene glycol leads to formation of glycolic
> acid and other compounds. The lethal dose of methanol and ethylene
> glycol is ~100 ml.

Really 100 ml?  That's a *lot*.  

Greg
- --
The virus contained in this message was not detected.

Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:35:06 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Re: help

Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote ..


> The water being sucked into the beer could mean that the yeast is
> using up the available oxygen in the wort, which would be a good
> sign.  More likely it's a sign that the temperature has dropped since
> you pitched, which is neither good nor bad.

No, a temperature or ambient pressure change in and of itself is not 
a bad thing for your infant beer. Ah, but that it is sucking the water 
from the airlock into the fermenter could be! That's a potential 
infection source. Most of us don't use sanitized water, and, even when 
used, little is done to ensure that the water in the airlock remains 
sanitized. That's why I use the cheapest garden-variety vodka I can 
find in my airlocks. Doing so essentially equates "suck back" with 
"enrichment" :o)

- --

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org





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Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:15:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: RI_homebrewer <ri_homebrewer at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Help with Harshness

Hi All,

  In http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4792.html#4792-7 Matt
(baumss127 at yahoo.com) asked for some help in diagnosing a
harsh flavor in some of his beers.

  Many people have already replied and discussed tannins,
polyphenols, chlorophenolics, and oxidation.

  Without actually tasting the beer, it's really hard to
figure out what this may be.

  Another possible cause, that Matt somewhat discounts in
the original email, is a low level infection that may cause
some sourness.  These low level infections do not necessarily
cause haze, ring-around the collar, or gushing, even in 8%ABV
beers.

  In the past, I had a "house flavor" and what I described at
the time as harshness.  I later learned that it was a low level
pediococcus infection.

  Being really strict about sanitation, replacing all of your
plastic brewing gear, and pitching large amounts of healthy
yeast will go a long way to reducing low level infections.

  Having experienced beer judges or brewers (either informally
or at homebrew competitions) taste your beers would probably help
to narrow down what the actual harsh flavor is.


Jeff McNally
Tiverton, RI
(652.2 miles, 90.0 deg) A.R.
South Shore Brew Club


		


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