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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  cidery tastes (David Carter)
  Stout Recipe using Extract (rogerl)
  Koji, Cold Bottling, Cidery Beer (rdg)
  Cidery taste (florianb)
  1. Sugar, 2. Sediment (Roger Rose)


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Date: Fri, 13 Jan 89 10:54:12 EST
From: davidc at northstar6.Dartmouth.EDU (David Carter)
Subject: cidery tastes


I don't know about anybody else, but I've noticed that when I've had
batches that have been cidery in flavor that I've used Red Star ale
yeast.  I sometimes got the flavor even in brews with two cans of
extract w/ 1/2 cup or so corn sugar for bottling.  I've since stopped
using Red Star, but since it is winter and I tend to brew darker
stuff, I haven't been able to compare.

Any comments?


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Date: Fri, 13 Jan 89 11:13:08 EST
From: rogerl at Think.COM
Subject: Stout Recipe using Extract

Jim asks: 
>Finally, I'm looking for a good stout recipe using malt extract. Any
>one have a favorite they's like to share?  

There is one on page 38 or 39 of the Winter 1988 Zymurgy issue.  I am
in the process of brewing this now.  It looks real good.  The recipe
uses 2 Munton&Fison Stout Kits, 3 added lbs. of dry malt, chocolate
malt, roast barley, and black patent malt as well as added hops
etcetera.  All for a 5 gal.  batch.  I'm psyched.  I don't have the
magazine at my finger tips to translate the complete recipe.(and my
dynamic ram hasn't been refreshed in over 300msec) If you don't have
the issue, I'm sure something can be done.

BTW, in that same issue there is a good article about Stouts available
O.T.C..  Good reading.(if you're into stout)

Roger
(over)

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Date: Fri, 13 Jan 89 11:19:59 MST
From: rdg at hpfcmi
Subject: Koji, Cold Bottling, Cidery Beer
Full-Name: 	Rob Gardner	


> All this talk of bacteria and fungi - it  is   an  enzyme  called
> amylase  which  converts  starch  into sugar,  salivary amylase is
> released form one's salivary glands as  part  of  the   digestive
> process. Amylase is available from most brew shops (usually  used

This may be, but is amylase the same as koji, and if so, why doesn't
Fred Eckhardt seem to know about it?

> Rob recently suggested chilling the fermenter for 12-24 hours
> before bottling to cause much of the yeast to sediment in
> the fermenter instead of the bottles.  I have read about
> this procedure before, but I still haven't tried it.  My
> question to Rob, and to anyone else out there who has
> tried something like this, is: does this procedure affect
> carbonation?  Also, does this it change the way that the
> beer conditions (taste, etc.)?  I know that only a very small
> amount is needed, but I'd like to get as much info as I can
> before I try it.

Relax. In my humble opinion :-), cooling your fermented beer will not
perceptibly alter carbonation or taste; It only serves to settle out
large heaps of yeast that would otherwise end up on the bottle bottom.
OK, OK, there are a few minor details, and you might be able to convince
yourself that they have an effect:

 1. If you bottle the beer when it is cool (or cold), there might
    be more CO2 dissolved in the liquid than there would have been
    if the beer was warm (or room-temperature.) This *might*
    contribute a small amount of extra carbonation. Will you
    notice? I don't know. If you are worried, use a little less
    priming sugar. I never use that much sugar anyway- many books
    recommend 1 cup, but I think that is always way too much,
    and results in a very gassy beer. Even 3/4 cup (also widely
    recommended) I find to be too much for this altitude (5000 ft).
    I usually use 1/2 cup for ales, and 2/3 cup for lagers, and
    have used 0 {none,zero,zilch} sugar on several occasions!
    (And yes, it works, but that's a subject for another time.)
    
 2. Since you have caused lots of yeast to settle out of the beer
    before bottling, carbonation might take a little longer than
    usual. I have never noticed this. No trouble to try a bottle
    or two to ascertain carbonation level, right?

 3. Since you have caused lots of yeast to settle out of the beer
    before bottling, there is less yeast sediment in the bottle,
    and thus less yeast to autolyze and give your beer bad flavors.
    Your beer might also last longer before this happens. Again,
    I have no direct experience with this happening either.

Look, give it a try. I know of no bad things that can happen to your
beer by cooling it for a day, and all the possible effects I can
think of are beneficial.
    

> I am interested in any discussion of non-alcoholic brew recipes.

Hard to do at home, as I understand it. Fermentation produces alcohol,
and alcohol is somewhat hard to remove from beer. You could certainly
make a passable attempt at making a "low" alcohol brew. 


> Almost all beer I've made that contained a substantial addition
> of corn sugar (1 or more pounds per 5 gallon batch) came out of
> the primary with a distinct cidery smell and taste.  Without fail,
> the cidery taste dissipated quickly over a period of one week from
> bottling.  By the time the beer was mature enough to drink, the
> cidery taste seemed to have aged out.

But...we're talking about the addition of CANE sugar (sucrose), not
corn sugar. (But I guess I don't see any reason why corn sugar could
not produce the same effect, if my theory is right.) You also don't
tell us if you boiled your sugar. This is the important distinction
I'm looking for here.

Anyone else have sugar stories?


Rob

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Date: 13 Jan 89 08:33:28 PST (Fri)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Cidery taste

I'd like to echo Andy Newman's comments on the cidery taste.  When this taste
has appeared, it has always been in brews in which I added corn or brown sugar
or molasses IN THE BOIL.  In every case except one, the cidery taste
disappearedafter aging for the expected amount of time.  In the one
exceptional case, therewas definitely a foreign infection, and I
chunked the batch after two months.  When I have used malt only, I
have never experienced the cidery taste.

This phenomenon is somewhat explained in "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" by
Papazain.  He also indicates that the cidery taste can arise from the use of 
sugar.  He also points out that it can be due to a foreign infection.
 From the
statistics of my experiences, I'd say Andy Newman is accurate in his
explanation.


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Date: Fri, 13 Jan 89 12:11:23 MST
From: stcvax!rlr at hplabs.HP.COM (Roger Rose)
Subject: 1. Sugar, 2. Sediment

Sugar and Cidery taste:

	Like everyone else, I've heard the sugar and cidery flavor
	problem.  Part of the confusion on how much sugar is acceptable
	and why commercial beers don't suffer, may be due to what
	type of sugar is added.

	The people who seem to indicate not having problems seem to be
	using dextrose.  Many of the homebrew kits recommend "white
	sugar" (ie. sucrose).  What I've read indicates that sucrose
	produces more off-flavors than dextrose.  Commercial breweries
	tend to use dextrose or rice as adjuncts.

Gelatin for reducing sediment:

	JBAUER at BAT.Bates.EDU writes:

	> ... to reduce the yeast buildup in your bottles.
	> ...  a couple days before you plan on bottling your batch
	> remove a couple cups of brew and heat, when warm add 1 tsp of
	> unflavored gelatin and disolve in the warm brew.  When disolved
	> pour back into your fermentator. ...

	I believe that TCJOHB describes a similar method, which I use
	on my lighter beers.  The only difference is that the gelatin
	is added immediately before bottling.  Adding gelatin right
	before bottling collects the yeast and glues it to the bottom
	of the bottle.  I've never considered adding it earlier, since
	I typically use a racking tube during bottling and haven't had
	problems with too much sediment.  The only concern was keeping
	it on the bottom.

	The only way I've found to screw this up is to have the water
	(beer or whatever) too hot.  You don't want the gelatin to set
	up, you just want to dissolve it.  (I had one batch where there
	were films of gelatin floating around in the bottles.  Not harmful,
	but not terribly attractive.)


Roger Rose
   UUCP:    {ncar nbires}!stcvax!rlr

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