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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  stealing, er, ah, borrowing yeast (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Light Absorbtion in Beer ("A.J deLange")
  ProMash and efficiency ("May, Jeff")
  efficiency (leavitdg)
  Re:  Where oh where did my efficiency go? ("Rogers, Mike")
  RE: Light Absorption in Beer (Steven Parfitt)
  Efficiency ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Effficiency... is this where it went? ("Michael Eyre")
  Podcasts for the Discriminating Brewer? (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: Light Absorption in Beer ("Michael O'Donnell")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:28:53 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: stealing, er, ah, borrowing yeast

Regarding obtaining Erdinger or other yeasts:

Seems to me that if you can get into a brewery (on a tour), it shouldn't be 
too hard to come away with some of their yeast.  One should come prepared 
with a sterile tube or two.  Obviously if you are roaming free around open 
fermenters you will be in great shape.  But even if you are not, you may 
well find a 5 gallon bucket being used at the end of a blow off tube.  Even 
a swab from the wall or floor will probably pick up the brewing yeast as a 
reasonable fraction of all bugs.  Or you could just ask....

Would anyone care to share tips or techniques?
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy



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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:28:31 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Light Absorbtion in Beer

All beer is ultimately red. Even the palest pilsner will, if the optical 
path is long enough, absorb all the blue light leaving a red color. To 
see this shine a flashlight through a carboy full of pale beer or 
through a mug of Guiness. Beer color is defined in terms of the 
absorbtion of blue light. The SRM color is 10 times the absorbtion of 
half an inch of beer at 430 nm well into the blue. Thus if o[tical 
absorbtion is to be the measured parameter blue light is clearly the 
choice though, as mentioned, differences in blue light absorbtion can be 
appreciable between Pils and Stout, for example. Given this I would 
think that a conductivity based sensor would be simpler to implement 
requiring only two insulated probes fixed at the two levels of interest. 
Relatively high impedance between a probe and the vessel indicates the 
probe is dry; low indicates it is immersed. Another thought would be to 
put the underback on an electronic scale and tap the weight reading from 
the scale's display or, at the more elegent end, rig something with a 
load cell.

A.J.


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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:20:55 -0400
From: "May, Jeff" <Jeff.May at uscellular.com>
Subject: ProMash and efficiency

If you like your beer, don't let some program tell you otherwise.  The
settings in ProMash will have a significant impact on your final results.
You need to tweak ProMash for all the specifics of your setup.  It is
amazing how much dead space can affect your final numbers.

I am having efficiency problems according to Promash as well, however, my
problem is in the other direction.  I have been hitting the 90s and
occasionally go over 100%.  My batch sparges have even be in the high 80s.
Boy, the mega breweries would love me.  I was concerned that I was
over-sparging but that was put to rest after talking with other brewers.  In
earlier conversations with John Peed, we determined that the contribution
values I have are too low.  I'm using the defaults that were installed with
the program.  For example, I use Muntons Maris Otter 3.0L (GB) as my base.
The PPPG is 1.030 in ProMash.  My last session ran at 93% using these
numbers.    Most of the other brewers say their PPPG numbers are higher than
what I use.  Where can I find accurate numbers for the different malts I
use?

Jeff May
Wilmington, NC
AR[649.7,148.6]



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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:23:50 -0400
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: efficiency

Mike;

 I don't think that you mention how long it took to sparge.  To me, that is at 
least one variable to consider.  For a 5.5 gallon batch I need to keep the 
sparge time to 45 min at least, usually 1 hour, or I get low efficiency.

 I am sure others will mention the other factors, but this is one that comes 
to mind for me first.

Darrell




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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:46:29 -0400
From: "Rogers, Mike" <mike.rogers at eds.com>
Subject: Re:  Where oh where did my efficiency go?

Hi Mike.

I only wanted to mention that I have been using ProMash for about 4
years with 10 gallon all grain brews.  The program is dead on with mash
efficiency.  I'm consistently between 80-84%.  I do a continuous sparge
of about 35-45 minutes.  I mash in a 10 gallon Gott cooler.  ProMash is
an excellent brew session tool if you understand the metrics and
functionality.  Many of my friends simply use it for recipe formulation
and do not use the brew session screens.  I assume you are taking the
final gravity check in the fermentor (via a post boil hydro test).
ProMash allows you to take the final gravity check via kettle or
fermentor and different logic exists...
- --------------
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:46:58 -0700
From: "Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Where oh where did my efficiency go?

Got a question for you all that I can't quite wrap my head around...

My friend and I do 10 gallon batches of allgrain beer, of various types.
We split the batch 50/50 and call it OK about once or twice a month. So
we never really have any problems until one of us invents one... and
this is how our latest problem came about. My pal get's this nifty
program called Promash, and plugs in our last beer to it's inner
workings and determines that or efficiency is extremely low.. so he
says. Something on the order of 56-58% efficient. I should mention that
this is a 3 tier gravity feed 1/2 barrel keg setup, that we occasionally
use a cooler to mash in instead of the keg, depending on our whims of
that session. We batch sparge as well, using two sparges. Our last beer
that he plugged in was an American style wheat with 60% malt 40% wheat,
and the first runnings were about 1.060 and the second sparge was about
1.040. We got an average of 1.053, which was right where we wanted to be
on a 12 gallon pre-boil pull. Later boiled down to 11 gallons and split
two ways. Excellent! Anyway, when he starts talking about rotten
efficiency a coupe days ago, which is a few weeks after the brew, I'm
wondering... is our system just bad? Does it matter if it is, cause it's
still cheap to run. But my main question is... what would have happened
if we had done a third sparge, would it have some out somewhere neat
1.020, which is still viable to use, properly boiled down in the kettle,
and is THAT where the lost efficency went? Another question is, why
wasn't the second sparge 1.060 as well, since isn't that the idea of the
batch sparge, to get one big run of evenly mixed wort/sugar? Hell, I
don't know the maximum solubility of water for sugar/wort... so I guess
that's what I'm having difficulties with.. why doesn't all the sugar
come out of the grain into the second sparge, did we not wait long
enough, stir long enough, etc. to make the second sparge work? We
stirred and waited about 10 minutes before we opened the drain for the
second run. I think I'm babbling now, so I'll end this, but I think I
got my idea across... I guess I'm just wondering how to get the
remaining stuff out of the grain that we apparently missed.

Mike



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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 05:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Light Absorption in Beer

Tony Barnsley seeks to perform optical level sensing  

>Hi all,
>
>I am looking at several ways to control the rate at
>which wort is pumped from my under back back to the
mash tun and off to the boiler. The rate 
of pumping should depend on the level of wort in the
under back

 ....SNIPI...

I'd go with the new 'White" LED or IR (Infared).

I don't know if an LED could emit enough light to
skunk your beer to a detectable lever, but I would
stay away from blue for that reason. 

I think the IR would be best, however you can't see
the light to verify operation.

Pick up a couple of IR "Slotted Optical Switches" and
cut them in half. Use the emitter and detectors from
them in pairs as they are matched for performance.

>Regards
>
>le Man ( The Brewer Formerly Known As Aleman ) 
>Mashing in Blackpool, Lancashire, UK


Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian 

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968


		


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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:39:06 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Efficiency

My thought: if you like your beer, and you don't feel you're spending 
too much on ingredients, don't worry about it.

In fact, some experience shows that undersparging can improve the flavor 
of your beer (as oversparging can definitely hurt it.)  If you were a 
pro brewer with thin profit margins, then you'd need to worry.  But it's 
a hobby.  You're making better beer for less money and having fun at the 
same time.  So really, don't sweat it.

For me, the only reason to be concerned about efficiency is to know what 
my system efficiency is, so I can predict how strong/weak my beer is 
going to be.  If I'm trying to make a Mild, and I end up with a brown 
ale at 1.048 instead of my target of 1.032, then I'm unhappy (or I can 
just enjoy the brown ale!)  Or, if I'm trying to make an IPA at 1.060 
and end up with a Pale Ale at 1.045, then again, I might be unhappy.

RDWHAHB

=Spencer in Ann Arbor


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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:59:12 -0700
From: "Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Effficiency... is this where it went?

Is speaking offline with some members, an idea struck. I discussed it
with my brew partner and he concurred. Since we had just switched to
batch sparge two brews ago, we were a little confused about the
procedure. I believe what we did was add the 1-1.25 quarts per lb of
water, AS WELL AS the "grain absorption" water, too... So, if my math is
right, we ended up using almost 2 quarts per lb. With the addition of
this extra water, on the order of about 2.5 gallons in a 17lb total
grain beer, what effect do you think this would have on the efficiency?
On the beer itself? Are we on the right track, or no?

Mike



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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:23:53 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: Podcasts for the Discriminating Brewer?

Stephen George replied, on podcasts:

> I listened to a couple and found them a complete waste of time
Fair enough. Was wondering about other people's impressions.

> If there are any that are really useful, I'd be keen to add them to my 
> subscriptions.
Well, those podcasts have different uses... Haven't really spent that 
much time with them but am occasionally downloading an episode of one 
or the other.

Though meant for more beginning brewers, Basic Brewing does have some 
interesting comments about methods and such.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/radio.rss
http://www.basicbrewing.com/

The Aussie podcast you mention can in fact delve into interesting 
technical issues, such as a discussion on pitching rates. Sure, they're 
mostly having fun and talking beer, but that's part of the thing.
http://rss.oz.craftbrewer.org/
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/

PodBeer is more like the beer equivalent of Mark Prince's CoffeeGeek 
podcast. It's still rather new but seems to be going in that direction. 
Some beer-related news, interviews with people who have an interest in 
beer... Maybe a bit opinionated.
http://www.podbeer.com/beer/wp-rss2.php?category_name=PodCasts
http://www.podbeer.com/beer/

On CraftBeerRadio, they mostly do sampling sessions by beer styles. A 
bit like an audio version of a RateBeer discussion with some beer 
factoids.
http://craftbeerradio.com/CraftBeerRadio.xml
http://www.craftbeerradio.com/

The Good Beer Show is a music and beer show from Muncie, IN. It's, 
well, one way to do it. At least they care about good beer, have 
interviews with brewers and musicians, talk about beer culture...
http://goodbeershow.com/wp-rss2.php
http://goodbeershow.com/

The Beer Show Online is a podcasted version of a radio show. Typical 
radio show format with extended phone interviews with brewers and other 
beer personalities. Maybe a bit like a beer magazine in audio form.
http://www.thebeershowonline.com/podcasts/TheBeerShowOnline.xml
http://thebeershowonline.com/

Only listened to one episode of Big Foamy Head (after sending the other 
message). It's more of a "beercast" which is a podcast using 
conversations over beer as the basis for the podcast. They talked a 
little bit about the beer but their involvement in the beer world may 
be rather limited.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/BigFoamyHead


Now, maybe there's room for a podcast version of HBD? There's a number 
of radio people in the beer world and, surely, some people might have 
fun creating the ultimate brewer podcast? It's easy to do and doesn't 
need to obey any strict set of broadcasting rules, including the need 
for an audience. Imagine this: a fortnight of yeast in audio format? 
Interviews with Stephen Alexander and Jeff Renner. Audio commentaries 
from BJCP judges. Competition announcements. "Soundseeing" brewery 
tours. Video presentations of brewing methods...
It could be *great*!



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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:06:30 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Light Absorption in Beer

Tony,

My gut feeling is that you might run into problems with particulates 
sticking to the sensor as the level drains out as well as the different 
colors of wort, but I might be wrong. I'm sure optical sensors get used for 
such applications, and you might find a manufacturer willing to send you 
two evaluation samples of optical fluid level sensors.

Another approach that you might want to try is capacitance sensing...

I have used off the shelf capacitance sensor chips for sensing the presence 
of fluid.  Measuring levels in a tank is one of the typical uses for such 
sensors.
I used Qprox301 products from a company called Quantum... here is their 
website, with an article on fluid sensing...
http://www.qprox.com/background/level_sensing.php
  look through their forums for some info on different applications. My 
application never worked fully because of residual water remaining on the 
probe. There are ways around this for use within tanks, that i was not able 
to try in my application. I'd probably build a concentric sensor out of 
silicon or teflon and run it down the inside of the tank. That way it would 
be totally sealed and could take the heat. The only problem with 
experimenting with this approach is that you have to buy a programmer for 
the chips for about $50. The chips themselves are only ~$2. I suspect that 
you could make it work without much trouble, though.

Good luck.

cheers,
Mike
Monterey, CA



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