---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Keg relief valve... ("Gary F. Mason - Image Systems - MKO2-2/K03 - 603884[DTN264]-1503  29-Aug-1990 0819")
  commercial labels (ROSS)
  Big pots (olson)
  RE: Wort Kettles (was: Questions for All-grain brewers) (Mike Fertsch)
  excessive trub (mage!lou)
  Hops 'n Stuff ("John C. Post")
  Lagering and Thermostats ("John C. Post")
  Re: Kegs (bob)
  Request (DARROW)
  Listing ingredients (Tom Fitzgerald)
  brew pots big enough (florianb)
  soda pop (florianb)
  Re: Lagering and Thermostats (Greg Wageman)
  Wine and Brew by You (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Lagering and Thermostats ("Andy Wilcox")
  Pronunciations (Mark Bradakis)
  Brewkettles Redux (Martin A. Lodahl)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 05:21:36 PDT
From: "Gary F. Mason - Image Systems - MKO2-2/K03 - 603884[DTN264]-1503 29-Aug-1990 0819" <mason at habs11.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Keg relief valve...

In answer to my own questions about the keg relief valve from Brewer's 
Warehouse, I offer the following (from a phone conversation with same) for 
anyone else who may be interested...

There should have been an instruction sheet - they will send it with my new 
order for various replacement parts.  Though advertised as having a range of 
from 2# to 10#, the source indicates that they have actually had the relief 
valve adjusted to 18# or so.  Full in (shortest position) is highest pressure, 
as one might expect.  They say it is shipped set for 10#, but mine was almost 
full out when it arrived, so something is amiss somewhere.  In any event, a 
guage would seem to be in order if one wants to maintain a known pressure in 
the keg.

Just for information's sake, the keg system I purchased had a Cornelius dual 
valve regulator on it.  That does NOT have a check valve on it (mine had a 
stopcock and hose nipple attached).  I promptly purchased a 5 keg manifold for 
it, which solves the check valve problem in addition to allowing multiple kegs 
 - each outlet on the manifold is a check valve. Remove the stopcock; attach the 
manifold; Bob's your uncle. Unused outlets should be capped.

Cheers...Gary

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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 08:31 EDT
From: ROSS at mscf.med.upenn.edu
Subject: commercial labels

Date sent:  29-AUG-1990 08:26:51 

Concerning the discussion about putting the alcohol percentages on beer labels.

If I recall correctly from my trip to Belgium a few years ago, their beer
labels have the alcohol content on the labels.  So it could actually reduce
the cost of imports if we could just import them with the European labels
and not have to have special US labels without the alcohol content.

By the way, it didn't seem like much hassle for US distributors to ruin
the "look and feel" of even the finest of brews by having to put that
surgeon general's warning on the bottle.

			--- Andy Ross ---
                    University of Pennsylvania
		 Medical School Computer Facility

                    ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu

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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 10:44:19 EDT
From: olson at antares.cs.virginia.edu
Subject: Big pots



In #484 Greg Roody wrote:
>I've wanted to get into all grain brewing, but my one remaining obstacle to
>trying it is the lack of a pot big enough to boil 5-6 gallons of wort.  I

There's an outfit called The Home Brewery that sells an 8 gallon enamelled
canning pot for on the order of 35$ plus shipping.  You might be able to
find such a thing locally as well.  A canning pot won`t heat as evenly as
a $120 restaurant-quality steel pot, but it will probably still work if
you stir often enough.  The only possible problem is that it's very
wide, will overhang your burner on the sides a bit.  Not optimal, but for
the $ looks like a good deal.  That's how I plan to start when I get my nerve
up...

The Home Brewery advertises in Zymurgy, has locations in Calif. and Missouri.
They filled my first order promptly and completely, and their catalog is
pretty comprehensive.  Sorry I don't have the address here at work.

- --Tom Olson (olson at virginia.edu)


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 11:11 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: RE: Wort Kettles (was: Questions for All-grain brewers)

Greg Roody asks about availibility of wort kettles -

> I've wanted to get into all grain brewing, but my one remaining obstacle to 
> trying it is the lack of a pot big enough to boil 5-6 gallons of wort.  I 
> read in papazians book that he recommends an 8 gallon (32 Q!) pot, but alas, 
> the only ones I have been able to find are too expensive to justify 
> (~$120 u.s.).  Part of the problem is that I don't want to use aluminum 
> because of the acid content of the wort.

I use a 32 quart (8 gallon) enamelled stell (or is it enamelled aluminium?) 
wort kettle.  These kettles are covered with speckeled black enamel, 
protecting the beer from the metal underneath.  I bought mine from a 
hardware store (True Value) for under $30.  I report no problems with it 
for up to 6+ gallon full wort boils.

A agree, you want to avoid aluminum kettles.  Interestingly, don't look for
enamelled kettles at restaurant supply stores - enamel pots are not
approved for restaurant use - they chip too easily.  These stores sell only
heavy aluminum pots ($100+) or stainless ($$$$)  I have had good luck with
my enamelled steel - I haven't chipped by pot yet - I just take care not to
throw the thing around. 

Mike Fertsch

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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 10:36:35 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: excessive trub

In HBD #484 Paul Kelly writes:

>I recently made an IPA (basic recipe from Charlie P's CJOHB), and encountered
>an incredible cold break.  Previously I had ended up with, oh, about one and
>a half to two inches of trub in the bottom of the carboy, but this time it
>was spectacular!  I would estimate that I had about a gallon of sediment.  So
>for the first time, I ended up racking the wort immediately after the cold
>break, and I was faced with another problem -- not enough wort in the carboy
>to blow off during early fermentation.  So I added about a gallon of water to
>the carboy ...

>Fermentation lasted two weeks, and the beer lasted about a week once it was
>ready to drink.  All in all, a successful and happy brewing result.

This has happened to me twice this summer.  I got about 2 gallons of trub in my
7 gallon batches (my carboys are marked in gallons).  However, this trub was
not nearly as dense as it seemed.  After a day in the carboy the trub settled
down to the usual 1.5-2. inches.  Let's hear it for active procrastination.

Louis Clark
mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 09:36 PDT
From: "John C. Post" <POST at VAXA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Hops 'n Stuff

Just picked my first batch of hops, and I'm wondering....

Does anybody know of a quick and easy test for alpha acid content?  I grow 
enough of the darn things that I'd be willing to pay somebody to test some 
samples, but I don't have the faintest idea of where to start...

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| post@ vaxt.llnl.gov          |"...It's only MY opinion...Not their's..."|
| post@ lis.llnl.gov           |                                          |
|John Post, Lawrence Livermore| ....I'm Relaxing...I'm Not Worrying....  |
|National Labs                |.......Just Wish I Had A HomeBrew......   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 09:44 PDT
From: "John C. Post" <POST at VAXA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Lagering and Thermostats

Somebody asked the questions about what it takes to convert a refridgerator for 
use as a controlled fermentation environment (I know thats not quite what was 
asked, but anyways).  Having just done this, here's my two cents:

The Grainger catalog (available at any compressor or power train supply shop) 
lists several replacement thermostats for commercial refridgerators.  The one I 
got cost less than 20 bucks, and just plugs in where the original thermostat was 
in the fridge.  The temperature range is about 25 degrees to 63 degrees, just 
right for anything you want to do.  You might also want to play with the cold 
air diverter in the freezer section so that more if not all of the cold air is 
directed into the refridgerator side...

Brew in the fridge side, lager in the freezer side...Works great!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| post@ vaxt.llnl.gov          |"...It's only MY opinion...Not their's..."|
| post@ lis.llnl.gov           |                                          |
|John Post, Lawrence Livermore| ....I'm Relaxing...I'm Not Worrying....  |
|National Labs                |.......Just Wish I Had A HomeBrew......   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed Aug 29 12:47:36 1990
From: semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Kegs


Algis R Korzonas writes:

> I ordered ... [three] 5 gallon "ball-lock" kegs (non-Coke)

1) Do these 'ball-lock' kegs use the same adapters as standard beer kegs?  

If so it would make me very happy! I have an old regulator and CO2 
tank for tapping a standard keg.

2) Wouldn't these be hard to clean?

Just wondering.

- -- Robert A. Gorman (Bob)        bob at rsi.com           Watertown MA US --
- -- Relational Semantics, Inc.    uunet!semantic!bob    +1 617 926 0979 --


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Date:     Wed, 29 Aug 90 09:28 EST
From: <DARROW%IUBACS.BITNET at UICVM.uic.edu>
Subject:  Request

Please add me to the distribution list

Thanks!

David Darrow

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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 13:40:55 EDT
From: Tom Fitzgerald <fitz at wang.COM>
Subject: Listing ingredients

Marc San Soucie sez:

> Seems there ought to be a nice, simple little Federal law
> requiring all beer, wine, and booze bottlers to put ingredients and alcohol
> content on every bottle so we know what we're ingesting when we ingest.

This has been tried a couple of times, and the big breweries have killed it
every time.  (Unfortunately it's often prohibitionist groups that are trying
this, knowing that beer consumption would plummet if people knew what gunk
was in their beer.)  You can expect a long, hard fight if you want to try
it again.

A lab analysis of Miller showed that it contained preservatives, head-
retention agents (this can be demonstrated by adding a drop of milk to the
beer, and observing that the head survives, which it shouldn't), anti-
oxidants, and something to prevent the formation of ice crystals.
Remarkably, an analysis of Bud came up pretty pure.

Even homebrews might look kinda queasy if ingredients were labelled,
especially if people use finings:  "Ingredients: water, malt, hops, yeast,
ground sturgeon airbladder, seaweed, polyvinylpolypyrrolidine pellets,
gypsum, chalk, gelatin, etc, etc".

Big breweries have also resisted labelling alcohol content since then
they'd have to reveal that their lite beers only have 2% to 3% alcohol,
so people have to drink twice as much anyway to get a buzz on.

- ---
Tom Fitzgerald   Wang Labs        fitz at wang.com
1-508-967-5278   Lowell MA, USA   ...!uunet!wang!fitz


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Date: 29 Aug 90 11:50:29 PDT (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: brew pots big enough

Greg Roody asks:

>My question is:  What do all grain brewers out there cook in?  Is it possible
>to use two smaller pots?  Is there a sneaky substitute?

I use a speckle-porcelain pot from William's Brewing (33 qt).  It's a nice
pot in that the cost is low (~$40) and it's big.  It is sufficient to boil
for an 8# all grain recipe.  For larger recipes, the boil must be done over
a longer period of time.  I have found no problem with scorching or boilover
when it is monitored well.  These kettles are prone to chipping, but with
a modicum of care you can avoid it.  In any case, chipping is irrelevant
to their function.  I place it over two of the burners on our Jennaire range.
It comes to boil in about 15 minutes.       

I also use the smaller speckle-porcelain kettle for stove-top mashing.  This
kettle can be obtained from just about any department store as it is used
in canning.

Florian


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Date: 29 Aug 90 12:00:39 PDT (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: soda pop

Timothy Phillips inquired about why the yeast doesn't ferment out all the
sugar in soda pop and offers the following explanation:

>The only explanation that I have been able to come up with
>so far is that there are no yeast nutrients (surprise, surprise--
>no human nutrients either!) in the ingredients, so the yeast
>use up their reserves and quit.  Somehow this amount is just
>enough to carbonate the bottle and no more.

I posed this question about 1.5 years ago in the HBD and got as many 
different answers as people answering.  However, you are most likely
correct.  The William's Brewing catalog contains a paragraph on this
and they claim exactly what you have stated.  From my experience in
cider making (using apple juice) I am inclined to accept this 
explanation.  It is sometimes the case that cider doesn't ferment to
completion due to lack of nutrient.  The addition of a small amount
of yeast nutrient brings the yeast back for a second round.

This hypothesis can easily be checked by making up a batch of soda pop,
putting it in a carboy and letting it ferment out, then adding yeast
nutrient.  Of course one has to be careful, since adding too much 
nutrient would yield a pop of very high alcohol content.

Florian


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 12:48:06 PDT
From: greg at cemax.com (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Re: Lagering and Thermostats

dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu writes:
>
>I just got a used refrigerator to brew in and the warmest it gets is
>41 F.  Is this too cold to lager in?

The most accurate answer to this is probably "it depends on the
yeast".  Probably too cold for the majority of home-brewing yeasts,
since if 41F is the warmest it gets, the average temp. is probably
closer to about 35F.  Remember that the purpose of a refrigerator is
the preservation of food and drink by the suppression of microbial
growth!  Temperatures this low will preserve your wort from
fermentation, too.

>Finally,  is it possible to install a more sensitive thermostat
>(with the range from 32 F to about 60 F).  If so where can the thermostat
>be obtained.

You could replace the thermostat with one from a window air conditioner
unit.  These usually have a temperature range of about 55 to 80F, or
so.  If you want one that is new, there is a national distributor, the
Grainger Company, that sells a wide variety of thermostats (amongst
other things).  Look in the phone book for the one nearest you.

No doubt you could find an appropriate one; the question is, will it
fit in place of the existing one?  If you don't mind it hanging loose
inside your 'fridge, any one with an adequate current rating (equal to,
or greater than that printed on the one you remove) would do the job.

However, before going to all that trouble, take a good look at the
thermostat currently in the refrigerator.  Chances are it has a pair of
adjusting screws for the "cut-in" point and the "cut-out" point.  The
"cut-in" point adjusts the temp. at which the compressor kicks in;
i.e.  the highest temp. the refrigerator will obtain.  The "cut-out"
point is the temp. at which the thermostat shuts the compressor off;
this is the coldest temp. it will reach.  Ideally, there should be
about a 10 degree swing between these two; too close, and the
compressor will run too often (perhaps continually); too far apart, and
the temperature swings may shock the yeast.

When I got my brew 'fridge, I bought one of those indoor-outdoor
thermometers with a probe at the end of a thin copper wire.  I taped
the thermometer to the outside of the 'fridge, put the probe inside and
ran the copper wire out the corner of the door.  When the temperature
stabilized, I used the thermometer reading to adjust the thermostat to
a reasonable range for lagering (average temp. about 55F).

Good Lagering,

	Greg Wageman
	(sj.ate.slb.com!cemax!greg)

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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 13:54:33 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Wine and Brew by You

Hello.

Two days ago, I posted a message describing my keg system purchase
and implicitly recommended "Wine and Brew by You" in Miami, FL.
Alas, I must take back my recommendation.  I still whole-heartedly
support Foxx Equipment Co., however.

My order for three packages of Wyeast and three keg float systems
came the other day, yet I did not want to open the box till
yesterday to allow the yeast to reach cellar temperature gradually
(avoiding temperature shock).  When I did open the package, I found
that all three packages of yeast had date codes of December 89.
That would make this yeast nearly 9 months past the date code.  Wyeast
suggests the shelf life of their yeast is 6 months past the date code.

I do not wish to risk $30 worth of malt and hops on old yeast.  If
the yeast has a longer lag time, of course there will be a greater
risk of bacteria or wild yeast establishing itself in my wort.
I called Wine and Brew by You, and spoke to the owner.  I expressed
my unwillingness to use this "old" yeast and asked to be reimbursed
for the yeast.  I was told that the yeast was "perfectly all right"
and that I could send it back if I wish. He said that he will reimburse
me for the order.  If this is where the conversation would have ended,
I would say, "okay, this guy is pretty cool," and may have bought from
him again.  However, this is where the call got ugly.

He then said, "I know who you are... you're one of those guys from
the brew network!"  He refered to us as "a strange group of wierdos"
and "cheapskate wierdos."  He said that he has been brewing for
30 years, and knew more about brewing than anybody on the network.
Strangely enough, he *asked* me to tell you to not order anything
from him.  [He is probably unaware that the Homebrew Digest membership
is upwards of 4000.  Now he knows, because he said he gets copies of
the digest through A. E. Mossberg.]  He repeatedly stressed that his
was "a legitimate business" not "some guy working out of his bedroom."
I would like to point out that I never said anything to incite this
kind of reaction, was very polite as I asked for reimbursement, and
even gave him several chances to apologize.  He continued to flame
about us digest members.  I won't have any trouble not buying from
him in the future -- my local store (which happens to be a guy
working out of his basement) currently is selling Wyeast dated August 90 
and was simply out of British Ale which is why I had W&BbY add the
Wyeast to the order.  He said that he will make a batch of beer with
the yeast I return to him, he will use $50 (!) worth of malt, he will have
Mr. Mossberg review the beer and post the review to the digest.

Regarding the float system, I recommend that you make it yourself.
The $3.50 float system consists of a plastic pill bottle with two
hex nuts (yes, nickel plated, hardware store variety) in it, a length
of vinyl hose (I don't mind my beer quickly running through a vinyl
racking hose, but I don't want PVC soaking in my beer for 6 months!)
and possibly a piece of fishing line to attach the pill bottle to the
hose.  Also, the crevices in the neck of the pill bottle may end up
harboring bacteria so your design should keep that in mind.

Finally, I would like to post a message to the owner of Wine and Brew
by You [I apologize to the digest readership].  You sir, were obviously
venting your anger (at some *other* person) in my direction.  The homebrew
digest membership includes a great number of college students, which
often eat a whole month on the $50 you plan to spend on your next
batch of beer.  Cheapskates we are not.  Strange wierdos, maybe, but
certainly not in the context you meant.  You are the first person
that I have had the displeasure of "meeting" that could talk about
homebrew with so much anger in your voice.  I'll bet that the digest
members that joined this week and have never brewed before, will brew
better beer than you within six months.  I also don't believe that
you meant to ask me to ask the HB Digesters to not order from your
store, but I for one will take your advice.  In closing, I'm certain
that all of us concur that you should:

	Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!

Al.


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 17:56:08 EDT
From: "Andy Wilcox" <andy at mosquito.cis.ufl.edu>
Subject: Lagering and Thermostats


I have a reverse problem with my refrigerator unit.  Actually, it's
just an upright freezer, and the warmest it gets is about 20F.  I've
seen talk of using a hunter energy monitor to convert a freezer to a
frig, but looking at one in home depot certainly created more questions
than it answered.  If anybody knows how to proceed, I'd certainly
appreciate a response.

Thanks!

 -Andy


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 15:15:45 -0600
From: mjb at hoosier.utah.edu (Mark Bradakis)
Subject: Pronunciations


Okay, so we have a new batch of HP workstations, and guess who got to name
them?  What I am wondering is how other folks pronounce these two names:

klages - Is it like  klah-jess,  klaggs, or ??
eroica - e-rosh-ah, err-oik-a, ??

I know I didn't use what one could describe as standard pronunciation guides
from your handy dictionary, but close enough.

mjb.



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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 9:14:09 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: Brewkettles Redux

In HOMEBREW Digest #484, Greg Roody asked:

> My question is:  What do all grain brewers out there cook in?  

A 33-qt. enameled-steel canning kettle.  They seem to average around
$37 at homebrew stores, but I got mine at a hardware store for $34. 
They work GREAT!  Mine's big enough to cover two burners on the
stove, which makes a big difference in the time it takes to get the
wort to boil.  One caveat:  it's advisable to use more care than you
would with a stainless kettle, as the enamel can be chipped, and the
bare metal may rust.  On the other hand, my mash kettle was chipped
& rusted whan I got it, which hasn't proven to be a problem.

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #485, 08/30/90
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