---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Miller&Bud (Russ Gelinas)
  Types of kegs (gateh)
  Mead carbonation ("FEINSTEIN")
  RE: Homebrew Digest #484 (August 29, 1990)  ("b_turnbaugh")
  Re: Homebrew Digest #485 (August 30, 1990) ("JOHN T. LOHR")
  Grain Brewing Methods (R. Bradley)
  Weirdos and Cheapskates (Tom Nolan)
  procrastination (Paul L. Kelly)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #485 (August 30, 1990) (Mark E. Freeman)
  Label adhesive (Keith Hearn)
  Grainger, soda kegs, plea for calm (Pete Soper)
  Brew supply stores in the Ocean City, NJ area... (Biru, kudisai!)
  Thanks for the brewpot suggestions.... (Greg Roody - 276-8682  30-Aug-1990 2154)
  WA Labelling Law (Norm Hardy)
  heat source? (Bill Crick)
  my wish for labels (Dick Dunn)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Thu, 30 Aug 90 09:17 EST
From: <R_GELINA%UNHH.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU> (Russ Gelinas)
Subject:  Miller&Bud

Tom Fitzgerald posted a message re. a lab test of Miller and Bud, saying that
Miller had preservatives, head-retention chemicals, etc. and that Bud came up
clean. I find that hard to believe, as Miller bottles specifically state the
all-natural ingredients as well as "no additives or preservatives". Bud makes
no such claims, except for their "Natural Lite" beer.  I'd like to know the
who/what/where/when of the lab tests.

Russ

- --- I don't particulary like Miller *or* Bud, but when forced to choose, I have
- --- always taken Miller, with the understanding that if I *have* to drink cheap
- --- beer, it might as well be clean cheap beer.  So I'm quite interested in
- --- this; clean beer is one of my main reasons for homebrewing.

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:22:23 EDT
From: gateh%CONNCOLL.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Types of kegs

> > I ordered ... [three] 5 gallon "ball-lock" kegs (non-Coke)
>
> 1) Do these 'ball-lock' kegs use the same adapters as standard beer kegs?
>
> If so it would make me very happy! I have an old regulator and CO2
> tank for tapping a standard keg.

There are two basic styles of kegs (in two sizes) in the U.S.:

   - two-prong tap (or "standard") - This is the older style tap, presently
     used primarily by smaller breweries and cheaper beers.  The kegs are of
     the squat, usually very dented, difficult-to-carry type.

   - ball tap (or A-B tap) - I'm assuming this is the "ball-lock" type.  It's
     my understanding these originally came from Anheuser-Busch.  These kegs
     are the nice ones with the straight sides, flat bottoms, and handles.  I
     believe these are the ones some folks have been hacking into brew
     kettles.

Both come in two sizes: quarter-barrels (7.8 gal)
                        half-barrels (15.6 gal)

When I finally get around to kegging (just got the fridge, now to get my tap
system back from friends 8-), I'm going to use quarter barrels (7.8 gal) of
the "standard" type.  They appear to be easy to open (big plug in side) - I
don't know how to open the A-B kegs, but it would seem one would need some
special tools (help anyone?).

I personally prefer the two-prong mechanism, for no good reason at all,
really.  Perhaps it's just my general aversion to anything from A-B. I've
had occasional problems with the ball type freezing up around the ball
(although I've had similar problems with the two-prong as well).  If you
don't have the tap set right, you get sprayed when you attempt to tap the
barrel (not a real problem for the non-comatose, though).  Another thought:
A-B half-barrels are several inches taller than the "standard" half-barrels,
and so they don't always it into fridges as well.  One thing to watch for
with the "standard" keg: sometimes the rubber gasket, which looks like an
"8", will stick to the barrel when taking the tap off, or it might break.
If you are having problems with the tap leaking, check this gasket.  You
might want to have a spare or two on hand.

Also - the recommendation someone gave to have two CO2 tanks is a good one.
Getting refills on the weekend (there is a Murphy's law governing when a
tank will run out) is always a major pain in the neck, at least where I am.
I use two 20lb tanks, but that's probably unnecessary (plus they're pretty
heavy).  Another CO2 tip - don't keep the tank in the fridge with the keg if
you can help it, especially on it's side - the cooled-down gas doesn't run as
well (I've seen tanks which seem to have partially liquified).

Cheers!  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe       | Academic Computing Services         | Yes, but this
gateh at conncoll.bitnet | Connecticut College, New London, CT | one goes to 11...

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Date: 30 Aug 90 10:49:00 EDT
From: "FEINSTEIN" <crf at pine.circa.ufl.edu>
Subject: Mead carbonation

Hi there!

Someone (they didn't append their name to their posting) asked in dig 482 how 
you carbonate your mead if you're going to add EtOH to kill off the yeast.

If you look again, you'll see that if you follow the "basic directions" you
allow the sealed jug of mead to carbonate *before* you add the EtOH to kill 
the yeast.

There are all kinds of variations on the basic theme I provided.  By all
means, feel free to play! 


                         Yours in Carbonation,

                                      Cher 


"With one tuckus, you can't dance at two weddings." -- Yiddish proverb
=============================================================================

	Cheryl Feinstein              INTERNET:  CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
	Univ. of Fla.                 BITNET:  CRF at UFPINE
	Gainesville, FL


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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 08:06:28 PDT
From: "b_turnbaugh" at lite.enet.dec.com
Subject: RE: Homebrew Digest #484 (August 29, 1990) 

Would you please send Digest 485 (Aug/30th) again, I deleted it before
I had a chance to read it.     Thanks:  Bob T.

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 09:51 MDT
From: "JOHN T. LOHR" <JOHNLOHR at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #485 (August 30, 1990)

enamel pots


I use an enamel pot.  They're big, they're cheap, but they're also thin.
When using these stir, stir, stir or you'll get crud baked onto the bottom.
'nuff said.

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:53:32 CDT
From: bradley at dehn.math.nwu.edu (R. Bradley)
Subject: Grain Brewing Methods

In digest 484, Greg Roody asks:

> What do all grain brewers out there cook in?  Is it possible 
> to use two smaller pots?  Is there a sneaky substitute?  

There were a few answers in 485, but only to question #1.
Also, the unanimity suggests that all of us grain-brewers use
32 qt. enamelled kettles.  Let me add a dissenting voice in
answering #1, but start with an answer to #2.

My first couple of dozen all-grain batches were boiled in two
pots.  I had a nice 12 qt. (US quarts always, by the by...0.9 l.)
stainless tell pot in which I mashed.  After the sparge, I split
the wort about 1/3-2/3 between it and a 20 qt. aluminum (HORRORS!)
pot.  Not surprisingly, I divided the hops - both boiling and
finishing - between the pots in the same ratio.  I also collected
all the sweet wort together before splitting it us, so that the
concentration of sugars would be similar. It seemed to work very well.

In 1987, I bought an "Electrim Brew-Bin"; similar in almost every
respect to the "Bru-Heat Bin" described in Dave Line's books, except
that it uses 110 volts instead of 220.  It cost $100 Candaian.
It came from a Wine art store in Toronto...Wine Art is a Candian chain.
A bit steep, but I've brewed over 100 batches in it so far. Not
bad on a per batch basis.  The only drawback is that it takes
a while (about an hour) to bring the sweet wort to the boil.
(Ample time for a homebrew :-) .)  A distinct advantage is that
it does triple duty: mash-tun, lauter-tun (if the grain is kept in
a large straining bag rather than floating free in the liquor)
and kettle.

Cheers,

Rob Bradley

P. S.  I recall quite a bit of discussion a couple of months ago
about Line's "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy".  I neglected
to add my own two cents.  If I'd done so, I think I would have
been the only one to have had anything good to say about it.
It's an excellent source of inspiration, as long as one bears
in mind that the ingredients he uses are different from ours
in every respect.  No recipe can be used verbatim, but with a
little scientific analysis and a little artistic creativity,
it's an excellent source of new recipes.  Any commnets?




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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 11:39:49 EDT
From: nolan at heavax.DNET.NASA.GOV (Tom Nolan)
Subject: Weirdos and Cheapskates

Wow, that was some strange business with the owner of Wine & Brew by You.
I haven't done an actual count, but I'd guess there are more active
HBD'ers with ".com" and ".gov" than ".edu" in their names. To dismiss
these Yuppies in their prime earning years as cheapskate college students
seems foolish. Everyone wants to save a buck but hey...

I haven't *bought* any out-of-date Wyeast, but I've *used* some because of
delays in my brewing pipeline. I've never found it to be a problem, the
pouch has always inflated within a few days, never as long as the
one-day-per-month guideline would suggest. Anyway, you're not going to
waste $30 worth of malt and hops, because you're going to "proof" the
yeast by making a starter before pitching, right?  If either the bag
fails to inflate or the starter fails to take hold, you try another
bag of yeast. You're not even going to start your mash or your boil
until you're already assured that your yeast is alive and happy.

Tom

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 12:38:46 EST
From: pkel at psych.purdue.edu (Paul L. Kelly)
Subject: procrastination


In HBD #484 I wrote:

>an incredible cold break.  Previously I had ended up with, oh, about one and
>a half to two inches of trub in the bottom of the carboy, but this time it
>was spectacular!  I would estimate that I had about a gallon of sediment.  So
>for the first time, I ended up racking the wort immediately after the cold
>break, and I was faced with another problem -- not enough wort in the carboy
>to blow off during early fermentation.  So I added about a gallon of water to
>the carboy ...

In HBD #485 Louis Clark wrote:

>This has happened to me twice this summer. I got about 2 gallons of trub in my
>7 gallon batches (my carboys are marked in gallons).  However, this trub was
>not nearly as dense as it seemed.  After a day in the carboy the trub settled
>down to the usual 1.5-2. inches.  Let's hear it for active procrastination.

Thanks to Louis for reminding me (and perhaps others) of the value of "never
doing today what you can put off until tomorrow."  I have often had the
suspicion that procrastination was a valuable asset in some circumstances, but
now I am firmly convinced.  I could have saved myself some trouble, but of 
course I would have ended up with a completely different beer.  Now I'll just
have to go back and try the recipe again, darn the luck :).

Now here's another question:  How can I make diet soda? (no flames from anti-
aspartamites, please.)  Any successful recipes would be greatly appreciated. 
One value I place on brewing is that I *know* what I'm drinking, and I would
like to have the same advantage when it comes to pop.

pkel at brazil.psych.purdue.edu    |      I think <----+ |"Cows!" - Owen, _Throw 
Paul L. Kelly                   |         |         | |Mama from the Train_
Dept. Psych. Sci., Purdue Univ. |        \|/        | |
    "Humpty Dumpty was pushed!" | Therefore, I am ->+ |Hail Saccharomyces!

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 11:02:11 PDT
From: freeman at idaho.Inference.Com (Mark E. Freeman)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #485 (August 30, 1990)

Another problem with listing alcoholic content on the
label is the debate over whether one should describe the 
content by volume or by % of the weight.  

  A lab analysis of Miller showed that it contained preservatives, head-
  retention agents (this can be demonstrated by adding a drop of milk to the
  beer, and observing that the head survives, which it shouldn't), anti-
  oxidants, and something to prevent the formation of ice crystals.
  Remarkably, an analysis of Bud came up pretty pure.

Actually, AB does list the ingredients on the Budweiser
label if you look closely; malt, hops, rice, etc... Most
people are surprised to learn that they use rice as one
of the grains, it's an easy way to win a bar bet.  I 
understand that the "beechwood aging" is actually done by
inserting beechwood slats in the conditioning tanks and
actually has something to do with fining or carbonation,
i.e. not necessarily for the flavor.

  Even homebrews might look kinda queasy if ingredients were labelled,
  especially if people use finings:  "Ingredients: water, malt, hops, yeast,
  ground sturgeon airbladder, seaweed, polyvinylpolypyrrolidine pellets,
  gypsum, chalk, gelatin, etc, etc".

There are ways around this.  For years many companies have
listed ingredients such as butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT)
as "artificial flavors".  Even though it has preservative
properties, since it has a distinctive taste they claim that
they add it as a flavoring, even though no one in their right
mind would really use it as such.
  
  Big breweries have also resisted labelling alcohol content since then
  they'd have to reveal that their lite beers only have 2% to 3% alcohol,
  so people have to drink twice as much anyway to get a buzz on.

There's a way around this, too.  I have an empty can of
"Great Dane" beer from Denmark at home.  The label lists
original and final gravities.  Most people wouldn't know
or even care how to convert these into approximate alcoholic
contents, but those of us who want to know would have a 
means of doing so. 


- -- Mark
   freeman at inference.com		- Standard Corporate Disclaimer -

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:19 PDT
From: khearn at uts.amdahl.com (Keith Hearn)
Subject: Label adhesive


Todd Koumrian asked about adhesives for bottle labels. I've found that a 
  glue stick works quite well. it holds on fairly well, but comes off
  easily when soaked. I'm not sure how well it would stay on a cold
  bottle that is sweating a lot due to humidity (I tend to pour mine
  as soon as I pull it out of the beer fridge. Of course it won't hold
  if you but the bottles in ice water to cool them at a picnic.

Keith Hearn
khearn at amdahl.com



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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 18:00:38 EDT
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: Grainger, soda kegs, plea for calm

- ------
  About Grainger. John Post and Greg Wageman both mentioned Grainger as a
source of thermostats.  Keep in mind that Grainger outlets in your area may 
not sell retail. I had to have a local company I do other business with
buy the items I wanted from Grainger for me and then sell them to me after 
adding sales tax.
  I wonder if it would be legal to set up a mail order business with the
express purpose of reselling Grainger's line? If I am wondering this, surely
this business already exists somewhere. So who has the phone number? :-)
- ------
semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET Bob Gorman writes:

  >1) Do these 'ball-lock' kegs use the same adapters as standard beer kegs?  

No. These are the narrow cylindrical steel cans that you see at soda 
fountains with Pepsi or the like in them. "Ball lock" is the "Pepsi" type 
while "pin lock" is the "Coke" type of connector.  Neither is like a beer
keg fitting. 

  >2) Wouldn't these be hard to clean?

No. They come apart completely and can be made squeaky-clean easily, unlike
beer kegs. 
- ------
hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) writes:

  [about his interaction with Wine and Brew by You]

  >Strangely enough, he *asked* me to tell you to not order anything
  >from him.  [He is probably unaware that the Homebrew Digest membership

  I feel we should just comply with his request and stop bothering him. If
Mr. Mossberg will stop giving him copies of the Digest this shop owner can 
be over some of his upset quickly and attempt to forget about us. Then
when all the folks having contact with the Digest stop doing business with
him his life will be back to normal.
  But before we get into an uproar over this, consider just how unusual
the Digest looks to somebody who has not been reading it for some time
or has not realized the ground rules needed to make sense out of it.
This person might not realize that *anybody* can write *anything* into the
Digest. They might think that there is some sort of implied legitimacy 
attached to the things written in the Digest or that at least over the 
course of enough issues there would be correction of mistaken information.
But we know better, don't we? Only some misinformation is corrected and
loads go by with little comment. The fraction of the Digest that we
perceive as "noise" compared to the good stuff we consider "signal"
depends in part on our knowledge of brewing and related areas, doesn't 
it? There are also a lot of items that come along with incomplete context
or whatever such that it is impossible to know what is right or wrong.
So an unwary reader just starting to brew and acting on everything
read in the Digest without sanity-checking with more reliable sources of 
information, well that person could really get fouled up, IMHO. And when 
things go wrong who is the closest person to cry to, whine at, or
clobber? Shop owners.
  Another aspect that could really hack somebody off is the mixture of
levels of discussion in the Digest. One guy is cutting open 15 gallon
beer kegs and mounting F16 engines under them while the next person just
needs to know a good source of extract kits and a third is blabbering
about models of hop utilization. For a shop owner who deals mostly with
mainstream homebrewers all the far out stuff can frequently translate
into more work for not much extra profit. (e.g. "The Digest says I
should use a yeast starter. Tell me how.")
  I'm not condoning anything said by this shop owner, just trying to
understand why he is so upset.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Soper (soper at encore.com)  Homebrew Digest Wierdo   +1 919 481 3730
Encore Computer Corp, 901 Kildaire Farm Rd, bldg D, Cary, NC 27511  USA

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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 10:09:52 PDT
From: hplabs!sun!nosun.West.Sun.COM!sharpwa!ghidra.dnet!croasdill (Biru, kudisai!)
Subject: Brew supply stores in the Ocean City, NJ area...

Hi all,

Just got asked by a friend if there are any Homebrew supply stores in the 
Ocean City/Philadelphia area.  

Thanks for any help you can send.

Greg Croasdill
UUCP:  ...(tektronix | sun | percival)!nosun!sharpwa!gcc
The Earth is like a grain of sand, only heavier.  (readings from _THE PROFIT_)



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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 90 19:10:29 PDT
From: Greg Roody - 276-8682 30-Aug-1990 2154 <roody at whzguy.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Thanks for the brewpot suggestions....

Thanks again to all of you who sent me mail suggesting an enamel coated pot.  
I ended up finding a 30 Q size canning pot for $22 u.s. (for those of you in 
ne, I found it at a store in Porter Square, Cambridge, MA - the "China 
Fair").  Now all I need is a few spare hours and a little cool weather and a 
Pale Ale will be born........

Also, RE: Wine and Beer by you (?), I can't believe that someone in 
*business*, presumably to *make* money, would turn away customers because 
they are associated with this newsgroup/net.  That's kind of like turning away 
customers who use MCI or Sprint.  While the opinions I express are only my 
own, I access this net through my company - a company which btw has about 
70-80 thousand u.s. employees.  And how big is H.P (or Encore, or Apple, or 
IBM, or...)?  All of these companies link to this net.  If *I* were in 
such a business, I'd probably offer a discount to this net; maybe even allow 
e-net ordering (is this allowed.... hmmm, maybe in my next life.....).  Sounds 
like he made a mistake, a big mistake. 

/greg


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Date: Wed, 29 Aug 90 19:01:36 PDT
From: hplabs!polstra!norm (Norm Hardy)
Subject: WA Labelling Law

An interesting comment about this proposed(?) law:
Charlie Finkel of Merchant duVin has cried about the expenses of labelling
the beers with the alcohol level.  I think his cries are nonsense for
two reasons:
 (1) Merchant duVin already has THEIR OWN labels on many of the beers, so
     what is the problem with sending the next production of labels to have
     the alcohol level?
 (2) Germany, like other countries I'm sure, now requires that all bottled
     and canned beers have the alcohol content (by volume) listed.  In
     addition, the German beers have the "expiration" date printed, and SOME
     even have the Specific Gravity or Balling degrees!


Changing the subject:  I had 3 glorious weeks travelling through Germany
this July and I have stories to tell.  This was my 3rd trip to the old
country ('84 and '87).  After brewing for 5 years at home, it was very
interesting to taste beers that were the product of centuries of tradition.
I tasted beers in the major cities of Hamburg, Bonn, Nuernberg, Munich, nad
... and ... Duesseldorf.  Is anyone interested in hearing what I might
have to say?

Norm Hardy



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Date: 	Wed, 29 Aug 1990 14:57:48 -0400
From: hplabs!ames!gatech!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: heat source?

Some people have been looking fo ra heat source to do boils. Two
completely unproven ideas come to mind? Coleman camping type stove?
or Take the grills, and lava rock out of your Propane BBQ. I don't 
know what the BTU ratings of these are, but the BBQ's list the on the
lables, or at least in the catalogs. I think they are in the 35000
to 65000 BTU/hr range. The camp stove, I don't know, but they work 
better for a WOK that an electric stove.

?????? Bill Crick



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Date: 30 Aug 90 02:01:28 MDT (Thu)
From: hplabs!ames!gatech!raven.eklektix.com!ico.isc.com!rcd (Dick Dunn)
Subject: my wish for labels

Speaking of possible changes in labels, one that I occasionally imagine
(tho it'll never happen) is this:  Put "% of calories as alcohol."  What
this tells you is whether there's anything of food value in the beer other
than just the simple alcohol.  It doesn't quite tell you whether the beer
has body, but it gives a good clue.  Something it might point out to any-
one curious enough to check it is this:  The "light" beers are made lighter
by *increasing* this measure--more of their calories come from alcohol.  (I
checked this with a handful of beers I could get info about a few years
ago; the "light" versions of beers reduce the calories more than they
reduce the alcohol.)

When you hear the "tastes great...less filling" crap, you (folks on this
list) already know it doesn't taste much...but did you know that "less
filling" really means "more intoxicating"?  That is, it means you can get
more alcohol before you start to fill up.  Educating the masses is a lost
cause, but would folks like "light" beer as much if they saw it as a
product that's intended to make them consume more of something that's
cheaper to make, and get more drunk as a result?

When folks find out how much alcohol there is in a heavy homebrew, the
first thing they think is, "wow...you must make that to get really drunk"
when in fact it's more satisfying and less intoxicating than chugging
through a six of lawnmower beer trying to find some taste.

I guess I'm not really thinking about the labeling so much as education.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd   (303)494-0965


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #486, 08/31/90
*************************************
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---