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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter (Bob Tower)
  RE:Wort chillers: Shirron vs. Therminator? ("Sasha von_Rottweil")
  Quantitative "Clinitest" ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter (Jeff Renner)
  My apologies to Steve Alexander, Doug Moyer, and anyone else I offended (Bill Velek)
  Mass flow meters ("Ken Anderson")
  Brewpot as fermenter ("Ken Anderson")


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Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:24:51 -0800
From: Bob Tower <tower at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter

  Stuart Lay of Royal, AR asked:

 > A question for the crowd:  Does anyone use a brew pot as their  
primary
 > fermenter?  What would be the disadvantages compared to traditional
 > fermenters?

Yes, I use two kettles as my primary and secondary fermenters. I  
wanted stainless steel fermenters but couldn't part with the money  
for a conical. They work great! They only downside is sealing the  
lid. I've heard of people just leaving the lid on and calling it good  
(or even doing an open fermentation) but I was concerned about fruit  
flies getting in and general contamination. What I did to get a good  
seal was to take some siphon tubing and cut down the length of it.  
Then I pushed this onto the lip of the pot and put the lid on top.  
Then I took two plywood discs, drilled 8 holes around the perimeter  
of both discs, put one underneath the pot and the other on top. I  
placed threaded rods through the holes and with wing nuts and washers  
on the rods I can apply enough pressure for the tubing to form a  
perfect seal. I move the beer from one pot to the other with CO2  
pressure and the seal will hold up to 10 PSI of pressure (I haven't  
gone beyond 10 PSI for fear of bulging out the pot). I installed  
stainless steel ball valves on both pots, placing the pickup on the  
primary a little off the bottom so as to leave the sediment behind  
and the pickup on the secondary just slightly off of the bottom to  
leave the paper thin layer of sediment behind without wasting too  
much beer. This is definitely a case of measure twice cut once! I  
also drilled holes in the lids for stoppers and airlocks. The beer is  
pumped in and out of the fermenters via the ball valves. Another  
advantage to the pots is that it's a snap to sanitize them. I simply  
fill them with enough water to submerge the hardware on the back end  
of the ball valves ( a coupler and a 90 degree elbow, both stainless  
steel of course), and boil for 15 minutes on my kitchen stove after  
which the excess water is drained out. Easy!

Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA


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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:10:11 +0000
From: "Sasha von_Rottweil" <sasharina at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:Wort chillers: Shirron vs. Therminator?


>Subject: Wort chillers: Shirron vs. Therminator?


Hi Mark,
Look at Blichmann's website on the page where he compares the therminator 
and Shirron:
http://www.blichmannengineering.com/Therminator/Comanother pointer, the 
petition.htm

>The Shirron probably has about the same surface
>area, though less efficiently-arranged than the Therminator.
According the the above site the therminator has 6.5sq ft total surface area 
vs Shirron's 2.4 sq ft.

I love my Therminator (no affiliation, satisfied customer, yaddi, yaddi...) 
however:
Check out other sources as well. My method of comparing plate chillers is 
the plate surface area since I am not sure how manufacturers calculate their 
kW rating which is common here in Europe. Maybe somebody else can chime in 
with a better and more rigourous baseline method.

I am currently in Germany so my observations may be off in the US but check 
out people that make solar water heaters or the industry that allows you to 
convert your diesel vehicle to run vegetable oil. They may have even cheaper 
plate heat exchangers. And nothing says that you can't hook two really cheap 
plate chillers in series if you get the same capabilities for less money.

The company Alfa Laval may be another pointer, German ebay is full of plate 
heat exchangers from this company.

While I couldn't compare the two plate chillers you mentioned I hope this 
helps.

Cheers,
Marty




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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:42:56 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Quantitative "Clinitest"

Clinitest is a quick and dirty way of determining that the reducing 
sugar level in beer isn't dropping anymore and that, therefore, 
fermentation is finished. It is a modification (and a clever one) of the 
Lane-Eynon (or similar gravimetric Munson-Walker) reducing sugar test 
which is quantitative and which can be done with simple laboratory 
equipment (flask, buret, burner) and reagents (Soxhelet's modification 
to Fehlings solution - copper sulfate, Rochelle salt, sodium hydroxide). 
In the test, beer from the buret is admitted to a flask containing 
boiling Fehlings solution until the blue (copper ion) color disappears 
then a couple of drops of methylene blue are added as a redox state 
indicator and additional beer added until the methylene blue is 
decolorized. The process is standardized against an inverted sucrose 
solution (glucose and fructose are reducing sugars). The test is a PITA 
to carry out but it does give a quantitative result. I don't think 
anyone uses it to measure fermentation progress but rather how complete 
fermentation is. The industry still uses specific gravity to measure 
progress and will probably continue to do so though they do have methods 
for measuring alcohol content in line (combination of IR absorbtion and 
velocity of sound measurement).

A.J.


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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:24:48 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter

Stuart Lay <zzlay at yahoo.com> wrote from Royal, AR:

> A question for the crowd:  Does anyone use a brew pot as their primary
> fermenter?  What would be the disadvantages compared to traditional
> fermenters?

I have usually fermented ales in a ten gallon stock pot that I also  
use to heat my sparge water.  Only trouble is, I ferment eight gallon  
batches, and vigorous fermentations tend to rise over the top.  In  
the past I have made aluminum foil sideboards, but more recently I  
have been using an old style 15.5 gallon half barrel with the top cut  
off and the bung hole plugged.

It's easy to sanitize either - I just boil a half gallon of water in  
them with a lid on.

I have never worried about an air lock, so a loose lid isn't a  
problem for me.

Jeff
- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943




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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:39:01 -0600
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: My apologies to Steve Alexander, Doug Moyer, and anyone else I offended

In HBD#4910, Doug Moyer took me down a peg when he said:

"Bill Velek takes it upon himself to limit other brewer's interests:
 ...
Bill, if Steve Alexander feels that collecting data enhances his 
enjoyment of the hobby, then good for him. Why should he care if you, or 
others, are interested? It's not like his posts are preventing you from 
focusing on the parts of the hobby that interest you. Even if his data 
is completely useless, it is interesting to him (and probably at least 
one other). As such, it is just as valid as a frothy discussion of 
Clinitest....
There's plenty of room in this hobby for all sorts. Live and let live."

Doug, I wasn't the only one who questioned Steve about taking hydrometer 
readings during fermentation, but because my questionning has apparently 
been interpreted by you as being somewhat arrogant, or somehow offense 
in some way, then I apologize to everyone who took it that way.  I 
certainly didn't mean to be nasty.  Actually, given that I readily 
concede that Steve knows a _WHOLE_ lot more about brewing and science 
than I'll probably _ever_ know, I was hoping that he would respond with 
something that _I_ could use on the _practical_ end for something other 
than perhaps just satisfying idle curiosity or his own somewhat unique 
interests.  I think I've said before ... "whatever floats your boat".  I 
don't try to impose my will or anyone, and I sure regret that I must 
have come across like that.  I'm sorry.

Cheers.

http://tinyurl.com/7zpob is my 'Brewing Glossary' with photos and links! 
http://tinyurl.com/99s2l compares HomeBrewers Team stats w/ other teams. 
http://tinyurl.com/axuol moderated group (now 304 member) EXCLUSIVELY re 
equipment for craftbrewers and small breweries. Please visit. Bill Velek



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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:02:48 -0500
From: "Ken Anderson" <kapna at adelphia.net>
Subject: Mass flow meters

Jeff Byers and Alan Meeker, I measure the CO2 flow rate periodically.
Excel takes the present flow rate measurement, and the previous flow
rate measurement, and calculates an average.  That value then gets
multiplied by the time interval between the present flow rate
measurement and the previous flow rate measurement.  So in effect, the
area under the graph gets turned into a bunch of upright rectangles,
which when added together give the total amount of CO2 produced.  CO2
produced correlates to specific gravity, and these values are monitored
throughout the fermentation.  I think it could be called a sort of
clumsy integration.  Pretty cool though!

The mass flow meter output is electrical.  It contains a small heating
element, over which the CO2 flows.  A fraction of an inch downstream is
a temperature sensor.  What the temperature sensor reads hinges on how
much heat the gas has picked up.  If the flow rate is slow, it picks up
more heat than if the flow rate is fast.  The temperature sensor is able
to measure this and convert it into a flow rate.  Also pretty cool!

It might be a bit late, but there was a guy on eBay with the best deals
I'd ever seen on DOZENS of these meters.  I don't know what he has left,
but do an advanced search for the seller "auction-partner",  then search
for "mass flow" at his eBay store.

One thing for sure.  Corny as this sounds, once you monitor your brewing
with a meter, you won't go back to an airlock.  I'd feel blind if I did
that now!    ; )

Ken Anderson



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Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:40:18 -0500
From: "Ken Anderson" <kapna at adelphia.net>
Subject: Brewpot as fermenter

Stuart, I use my 15.5 gallon Sankes as boil kettles/fermenters.  I boil,
cool, pitch, aerate, cover, and ferment, all in the boil kettle, gunk on
the bottom included!  I do not transfer my beer (almost exclusively
lagers) until the fermentation is completely finished.  I use pellet
hops, and am in no hurry to get the beer off the trub.  Then it's to a
conditioning vessel of some sort until it's ready to be kegged.  My
tasters (read that, buddies and family) and I are VERY pleased with the
results.  And I'm pleased with the ease of this method!

Ken Anderson



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