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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Worthless information, redux ("Doug Moyer")
  Flow Meter ("A.J deLange")
  RE: Brew Pot As Fermenter ("Dan Jeska")
  Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter (Scott Kaczorowski)
  Re: Mass flow meters ("Mike Sharp")
  Re.: Teff (cereal grain) ("Sean Richens")


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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:46:02 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Worthless information, redux

Bill Volek apologizes, somewhat.

Bill, the only reason that I took you to task, as opposed to others that 
criticized Mr. Alexander, is because of your statement (which you didn't 
reproduce along with my comments):

"If you can find a way to _USE_ the data you collect, then that's great; 
otherwise, more knowledge -- like knowing how many steps an ant takes in 
mile -- is worthless."

Bill, you used some aggressive wording to tell Steve that his efforts were 
worthless if they don't help YOU.

The point I was trying to make was that, even if the information doesn't 
help ANYONE to make better beer, it is useful because it interests Steve 
(and perhaps someone else).

I've subscribed to the HBD since 1993 or so. During that interval, many 
people have (viciously) claimed that scientific analysis is worthless since 
they (the claimant) make such good beer. Spurious at best, disingenuous at 
least. As I mentioned in my previous post, the hobby is certainly broad 
enough to accommodate those that program their own RIMS controllers, and 
those that do yeast cell counts with a hemocytometer, and those that make 
extract beer with an occasional steeping of crystal malt. (At least George 
DePiro is no longer around strutting like the (miniature) top cock in the 
roost....)

I build my own equipment, but don't worry much about yeast (I frequently use 
Nottingham). I will NEVER look into water chemistry, much less delve into it 
like AJ DeLange.

Everyone brings a different slant to the hobby, and everyone takes something 
different from the hobby. What is worthless to you is interesting to others 
and vice versa.

I have, in the past, asked Steve (off line) if his observations could 
translate into something that I could understand. But, regardless of the 
answer, I applaud Steve for his interests.


Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Troutville, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://www.starcitybrewers.org

Shyzabrau Homebrewery: http://users.adelphia.net/~shyzaboy/homebrewery.html




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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:55:24 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Flow Meter

RE: The temperature sensor is able to measure this and convert it into a 
flow rate.
To do that it needs to know the specific heat of the fluid passing 
through it. Do you tell it that it's working with CO2? Do you calibrate 
it with CO2? Is it a CO2 meter? And since I'm asking all these questions 
I'll ask one more: what is the nature of the output ( i.e. 232, 422, 
4-20.....)?

A.J.


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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:42:56 -0500
From: "Dan Jeska" <dan.jeska at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Brew Pot As Fermenter

Stuart,

I also have been using a 25 gallon SS boiling kettle to go right from the
end of the boil to complete fermentation. The lid does not fit well, so I
wrap a couple of laps of plastic wrap around the perimeter of the kettle
after pitching. This helps make a better seal between the lid and the
kettle. The main advantage I see is there is a lot less work transferring
wort to fermenters and a reduced chance of infection. I usually brew 15
gallon batches and that means if I transfer to fermenters I have to use
three carboys. The disadvantage here is that I can't see the fermentation as
it progresses, and that's one of the fun things about brewing, right?

Dan Jeska
Brewing Near Kalamazoo, MI
(85.5,277.7) Rennerian
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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:01:49 -0800
From: Scott Kaczorowski <sk at xb-70.com>
Subject: Re: Brew Pot as Fermenter


Bob Tower says:

> Yes, I use two kettles as my primary and secondary fermenters. I  
> wanted stainless steel fermenters but couldn't part with the money  
> for a conical. They work great! 

I've used my 1/2bbl HL tank as a fermenter, and sometimes I wonder why I
don't do so more often.  Not a conical, but I can drain it almost
completely dry.  At the end of the brewday it's pre-sanitized.  No
iodophor, no bleach because I was too lazy to clean the carboy out
completely the last go-'round (which is, in fact, almost always the reason
I use the HL tank as fermentor), no nothin'.  I can blow gunk or even clean
yeast cake whenever I feel like it.  It has the added advantage of a
thermometer installed in a coupling.

> They only downside is sealing the  
> lid. I've heard of people just leaving the lid on and calling
> it good (or even doing an open fermentation) but I was concerned
> about fruit flies getting in

D'oh!  Don't bring that up again!  ;-)

> What I did to get a good seal was [...]

I cut the top out of the keg that is my HL tank so that the lid from a
~3gal kettle fits.  I then place a clean bath towel over the top of the
whole thing and cinch it down with backpacking cargo straps found in any
sporting goods store.  The only problem I've had so far was temp
mis-management for a Scottish.  The whole mess was simply too big and heavy
to move, and...well...it wasn't too phenolic to drink, but...


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA




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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:30:35 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mass flow meters

Regarding Mass Flow meters for measuring CO2

One thing that concerns me about using a mass flow meter for measuring CO2
flow is that when coming out of a fermenter, the gas is likely to be
saturated with water vapor, which will alter it's calibration.  Most MFCs
are designed to measure a specific gas, in it's dry state.  I suppose you
could recalibrate one of these, making assumptions about the amount of water
vapor in the blowoff based on temperature, or at least account for it when
interpreting the data.  Perhaps the water vapor isn't significant, but my
instinct tells me it is.

Or you could try removing the water, but those little dessicant canisters
wouldn't be enough, unless you were resigned to changing it frequently.  I
wonder if one of those RV dissolving dessicants (e.g. dri-z-air) that we use
for our chest freezers would last through several fermentations, if you
percolated the gas through it (I'd use a good check valve, to make sure that
any odor from it wouldn't get carried back into the fermenter when the flow
rate slows down.  Might be worth trying.

One other thought--get one for measuring water vapor, and infer the CO2 flow
from that.  

Regards,
Mike Sharp
Kent, Washington
[1891.3, 294deg] AR


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Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:03:03 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at mts.net>
Subject: Re.: Teff (cereal grain)

Sorry to disappoint you, Darrell in Plattsburg, but the one thing I haven't 
done with teff is use it in a European-style beer ("beer as we know it").  I 
have made a couple of batches of sewa/tella depending on your language, 
using teff for the cooked unmalted grain.  It comes out like "the liquid 
equivalent of a nice blue cheese" as I once described it (hbd archives and a 
BYO article by the Fisher brothers).  I've also made injera, essentially a 
sourdough pancake, which is totally self-working and produces an awesome 
sourdough starter.

I have today finally gotten around to trying to make a sourdough rye bread. 
My starter is a mixture of teff batter and Wyeast 2308 barm fed with rye 
flour, and the loaves are just having their last rest.  Cross your fingers 
for me!

Of course, now that you mention it, it's something I have to try!  What were 
you thinking of, ale, lager, pale, dark...? 



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