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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  RE: Reuse dry yeast cake... [Sec: Unclassified] ("Williams, Rowan")
  re: Lagers made from ale malt ("steve.alexander")
  re: reuse dry yeast cake... ("steve.alexander")
  Rice Hulls/Lager from Ale Malt ("A.J deLange")
  RE: Reuse dry yeast cake... (jeff)
  floating grains while sparging ? (leavitdg)
  Water results? ("Michael Eyre")
  Fred's big chill ("Peed, John")
  Re-using Dry yeast cakes (Trevor LaRene)
  Another Stuck Fermantation ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: hopbacking (RiedelD)
  WLP 565 Saison Yeast Question ("Steve A. Smith")


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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:53:02 +1100 
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
Subject: RE: Reuse dry yeast cake... [Sec: Unclassified]

Mike asks about repitching on US-56...

Mate, I repitch onto US-56 all the time and have not had any problems.  In
fact, I'm currently enjoying a keg of dry stout that was pitched onto the
yeast cake of a pale ale and both are in good shape.  Just keep things clean
and sterile and you should be fine.  I must admit, however, that I don't
re-pitch more than twice - why?  Well, its all about risk management!  Dry
yeast is cheap.  I prefer to buy another satchet to mitigate against any
risk of a strain mutation affecting the wort that I've spent many hours
preparing.  

Cheers,
 
Rowan Williams 
Canberra Brewers Club 
[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)

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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:12:06 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Lagers made from ale malt

Rowan Williams asks,


>[...] so is there a problem with me using the
> ale malt as the base?

Ale malt is kilned a bit differently than pils/lager malt
so yes there is a fair bit more toasty flavor in ale malt.
Ale malts have a fair bit less enzymatic power so that can't
convert as much non-enzymatic adjunct (like corn) as pils
malt.  These days there is virtually no difference in degree
of modification, so don't overmash the ale malt (and
certainly don't decoct it).

For the 'other' malts, I think there is wide agreement that
UK crystal malts tastes a bit different than German caramels,
and of course vienna/munich/melanoidin malts hail from the
lager tradition and make a unique flavor impact.

If you are making a light colored style (pils, helles)
then base malt and maybe some carapils is all that's called
for and you'll find that the ale base malt will give
considerably darker color and more toasted flavor - a very
nice flavor, but not exactly to style. 

Just an opinion, but lager brewing is a bit more finicky
and requires better control than ale brewing so there is
no downside to making a lager from ale base malt just for
the experience.  Just realize that the result will probably
taste great and certainly lager-like, but won't win any
award for matching a traditional style.

 -S





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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:57:20 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: reuse dry yeast cake...

Michael Eyre says,

>I have a 1.045 stout in primary now... I am planning an imperial stout
>at the end of the week and will have the option of pitching onto the
>yeast cake of the Safale US-56 that I used for the small stout.
>Considering that this is dry yeast, and I'm mostly heard to *not* reuse
>the yeast from a dry yeast pitch, what're your thoughts on this,

I don't see why you shouldn't reuse it.   Any dry yeast has low
viability (maybe only 50%), but you've performed a normal 11P
ferment so 80-90% of the cells are newborns and have never been abused
(hi-grav).

I think another reason you used to hear this advise has to do with
infection.  Years ago dry yeast had a bad rap for carrying infection
at low levels.  Perhaps contamination from the drying process. I
find it hard to believe commercial guys are using dry lager yeast
with infection issues.

My hunch is that that yeast cake is about as viable and clean
as you'd typically see in an HB operation.  If the low-grav
stout ferment was clean and rapid and you don't suspect problems 
I'd re-use the cake.

>I suppose the $3.50 for the two packets of dry I'd use for the
>Imp. Stout is a small price, but hey...

If your ImpStout is anything like I'd expect (say 25 Plato) then
two packet won't do the job and this is a situation which really
calls out for a nice big viable yeast cake to power through the
hi-grav wort.

 -S




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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:45:59 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Rice Hulls/Lager from Ale Malt

RE:

"I know that rice hulls would help.  Do 
they get mixed with the mash, or do they go into the bottom of the lauter 
tun to act as a filter?"

I've always mixed them in with the mash as it is transferred to the lauter tun. 
In this way the rice hulls are distributed throughout the mash and hold its 
particles apart thus improving flow. If you kept the hulls at the bottom I'd 
expect the mash to pack down on top of them with pretty much the same result 
as if they weren't there. I have never tried it that way so I'm guessing here.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Lager from ale malt? Sure, why not? You won't be able to do the palest pils 
because the ale malt will be a little darker and the protein/sugar balance 
may be a little off but if fermented at the proper temperature with the proper 
yeast the result should be quite pleasing.


A.J.



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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 05:08:29 -0800 (PST)
From: jeff at henze.us
Subject: RE: Reuse dry yeast cake...

Mike is asking about reusing his yeast for an Imperial Stout:

Mike:
I don't know how it'll work in the end, but I just did the same thing with
some Nottingham yeast. I'm normally a liquid yeast user, and was really
impressed with how easy and fast the dry Nottingham took off in a batch of
wheat ale I did. Then as I racked the wheat to secondary a week later (it
was down to 1.014 from 1.040) I whipped up another batch of wheat ale and
racked it onto the cake along with about .5 gal of wort that didn't fit in
the secondary. It took off faster than any batch I've done in the past -
showed good activity after 2 hours, and was blowing off in 3 or 4 hours. I
lost quite a bit of beer due to blow off, but it was interesting to see.

The beer inside smells good (it's almost a week old now) and I'll rack it
to secondary this weekend and give it a taste on the way.

I've never heard of not reusing dry yeast, but it is cheap, so if it's
problematic, you might want to skip it on an expensive batch like an
Imperial Stout. My wheat ales were just done with extra ingredients lying
around the house and a few pounds of malt from the LHBS.

I'll let you know how Wheat Ale 2 tasts after I try it. Good luck.

FWIW on the Nottingham yeast in the first batch of Wheat ale - after
racking in secondary, it had absolutely no activity. Normally I would just
leave it be and eventually it'd drop; but I tried some yeast energizer for
the first time. Activity started almost immediately (no other changes,
just the energizer) and have continued slowly (but visable) ever since (5
days now). I'll definately use the energizer again in the future for
stuck/slow fermentations.

- --Jeff




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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:54:10 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: floating grains while sparging ?

I have brewed over 400 batches in the last 8-9 years or so, and have only
recently had this happen, twice:  as I get 20 minutes into the runoff, the
grains in the tun float to the top!  Perhaps I am sparging too fast?  It
generally takes me 1 hour to collect about 7 gallons.  I am using a polarware
tun.  Perhaps I have run the hot liquor in too fast, ie like a batch sparge?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Darrell



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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 08:56:27 -0800
From: "Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Water results?

Hey all!

With the post I just saw on the HBD, I got curious and dragged out my
"Home Stuff" folder from when we bought this house a few years ago.
Inside, I found the water analysis thing from the testing we had
performed on the well water here. I was hoping to get a little help from
the collective on it's meanings. I'm try to double check the results and
decipher what it all means from a pretty helpful book here, but thought
I'd throw it out to you all as well for a second guess. What the form
indicates is as follows:

Stuff			Results	Units
- ------------------------------------
PH			7.78
Turbidity		1.7		NTU's
Chlorine Residual	ND

Nitrite N		<.05		Mg/l as N
Nitrate N		.42		Mg/l as N
Iron			.05		Mg/l
Manganese		ND		
Sulfate		5		Mg/l
Sodium		13		Mg/l
Hardness		44		Mg/l
Chloride		2		Mg/l

What I'm wondering, mostly, is how this applies to me as a brewer, of
course, and what types of beer this stuff is best suited for, untouched,
and what types of additions of chemicals and such I'd need to add to
really get the most out of other styles. Basically, I mean. I have never
added anything from a bottle with a funny chemical label into my brewing
water at all, ever. I know nothing about it. I've just been going on the
"f it tastes good, brew with it" guideline and it's served me pretty
well so far. But now me and my brew partner are looking for the next leg
up and would like to delve into this part of brewing a bit more. Any
suggestions or info? Thanks!

Mike



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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:07:51 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Fred's big chill


Fred, I would think you'd get much quicker chilling by whirlpooling
through your CFC than you would by using an immersion chiller, because
the wort will be moving through the chiller rather than having an
immersion chiller just sitting stationary in the wort.

John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN




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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:02:21 -0600
From: Trevor LaRene <larene4 at tds.net>
Subject: Re-using Dry yeast cakes

Michael Eyre asks:
"the option of pitching onto the
yeast cake of the Safale US-56 that I used for 
the small stout.  Considering that this is dry 
yeast, and I'm mostly heard to *not* reuse the 
yeast from a dry yeast pitch, what're your 
thoughts on this, HBD collective?"

Sure, why not?  I reuse my "general-purpose" 
dry yeasts (Nottingham, etc) for 2-4 generations, 
depending on how freqently I'm  brewing, and 
if I have compatable styles.  (For example, I 
won't rack a light cream ale onto a yeast cake 
that just produced a porter.)

Otherwise, as long as you are using good sanitary procedures, go for it!

Trevor LaRene




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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:17:01 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Another Stuck Fermantation

Well, this one has me against the wall.  Back in December I brewed a clone
of Sierra Nevada Big Foot.  A high gravity ale.  The grain bill was:

12.5 lbs Pale Malt
3    lbs various adjunct grains.
3    lbs  Laaglander Dark DME  (Added during the boil).

I transferred this into the fermenter on top of a 1" layer of active yeast
from a pale ale batch brewed 10 days earlier.  The OG was 1.095.  The pale
ale batch used a fresh smack pack of 1056 yeast.  It had fermented down to
1.012.

After 5 days at 64 degrees, this batch was down to 1.048 and stalled.

I aerated for a few minutes with an air stone and added 1/4 pint of yeast
that I had saved from the pale ale and brought it up to 74 degrees.
Nothing.

(My apologies to Pete Ensminger but I like my house warm enough to walk
around nude if I want to.)

After 3 days, I rehydrated a pack of Coopers ale yeast and added that.
Nothing.

After 5 days, I rehydrated a pack of champagne yeast and added that.
Nothing.

So, I still had 1/4 pint of yeast slurry from that pale ale batch.  I
decided to see if it was alive so I made a starter, ~1.040 with DME and
stepped up the slurry.  I got a very strong ferment for a day or so; it was
down to 1.010.  I decided, given all the problems I was having, maybe I
needed a real big starter to finish this batch but I didn't have any more
DME.  Well, what the hey.  I have 5 gallons of 1.048 wort that I am trying
to get to ferment, let's see what this starter can do to that.  So, I drew
off the spent solution and added 4 cups of the wort I was trying to get
restarted.  Nothing.  Nada.  After 5 days, still 1.04x.

This stuff is really sweet and heavy.

I don't know what else to try.  Maybe I'll just bottle it and sell it for
patching blacktop driveways.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

http://hbd.org/pcalinsk


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:16:05 -0800 
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: RE: hopbacking

Fred discusses his hopback experiences with a split batch of bitter:

"The five gallons hopped with Northdown in the hopback is very bitter 
relative to the five gallons hopped with Goldings in the hopback. I 
have not measured the IBUs, but there is clearly a difference in the 
bitterness level and it is not a subtle difference. The Northdown comes 
across like an IPA.

I am considering abandoning the use of a hop back, going back to my 
original method of adding late hop in the kettle"

Fred,

What you don't mention was how the late hop character was?  Did you get a
nice, clear aroma from the hopback addition?  I have found it difficult to
get a really full hop aroma from additions at knockout.  Dry-hopping seems
to be the only way, but it has a different effect than kettle additions.
I'm curious how the hopback aroma was.

Would you consider adjusting your bittering additions to allow for the late
contribution from the hopback addition?  Or, was there something else you
didn't like about the hopbacked beers.

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Can.



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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:45:05 -0500
From: "Steve A. Smith" <sasmith11 at verizon.net>
Subject: WLP 565 Saison Yeast Question

Last Saturday (six days ago) I brewed +7 gallons of Saison, about 1.064 OG, 
using White Labs 565 Saison yeast for the first time.  Per some of the 
threads I followed from the HBD archives, I have been fermenting in primary 
a little hot, at about 78 F, even though the WLP web site recommends an 
optimal fermentation temp range of 68 - 75 F.  It was a simple matter for me 
to place my two primary fermenters close to a basement furnace where the 
heat remains quite constant at the mentioned 78 F (air temp).  The yeast was 
very active when I checked 12 hours after pitching, and died down a lot 
about a day later, although even tonight it still bubbles once every couple 
minutes or so.  Per the posts I read, some people ferment this yeast at 80 - 
95 F, and that the book Farmhouse Ales, which I do not yet own, recommends 
fermentation temps somewhere in the vicinity of that range for this strain. 
I'm planning to rack to secondary tomorrow or Super Bowl Sunday, and will be 
unable to check the beer for a week after that.  My question to those with 
experience with this yeast is would you recommend that, after racking to 
secondary, I move the fermenters to a slightly cooler area, say 70 F, so 
that the yeast will not break down during secondary fermentation?  I 
understand that this strain takes its time and secondary might take at least 
2 to 3 weeks to clear and finish somewhere around 1.010 - 1.014.  My normal 
inclination would be to go cooler and longer in secondary, but I know that 
Belgian style beer-making can call for new ways of thinking.

thanks,

Steve Smith
transplanted from the Rocky Mountain West to the DC Metro Area 




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