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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Racking via the Sanke spear ("pddey")
  Re: Cask Conditioning Advice Needed ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  Re: How can I buildup the oxygen (lipids) levels of existing yeast cells? ("Fredrik")
  Why pitch cold? ("Stevens, Jonathan C")
  Ph Perplexity ("Martin Brungard")
  re: cask conditioning (Ted Hull)
  Cask Conditioning Info (Paul Hethmon)
  Re: Rennerian (Jeff Renner)
  Ph Perplexity ("Unix Bob")
  Re: Racking via the Sanke spear (Jeff Renner)


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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:10:08 -0700
From: "pddey" <pddey at netzero.net>
Subject: Racking via the Sanke spear

One of my favorite fermentation vessels is the Sanke keg. I have one with 
the spear removed in which I use a 2-hole stopper and racking cane to 
transfer beer to secondary by applying a few pounds of CO2 pressure to a 
stub of tubing in the second hole. After a few struggles with leaks over the 
last couple batches (my no. 11 1/2 stopper is too big) it occurred to me 
that perhaps I should simply re-insert the spear, hook up the tap, and apply 
CO2 to move the beer. Sure I could use the smaller stopper, in fact I think 
I have one saddled up in the yeast ranch, but.......vaguely recalling 
discussion of similar issues in this august forum, and trying to recall the 
name of the handy tool or device I'd seen referenced to make spear removal 
easier, I started searched the archives. While my patience with the slow 
modem quickly ran out, I found the Keg Man kit. And it is now ordered. This 
looks like it will make spear removal and replacement a snap. My question, 
at last:

 - Can the spear assembly be cleaned and sanitized effectively while removed 
from the keg? It has never been cleaned, just gathering dust under the 
stairs since its joyous ride home from the junkyard. I could soak in PBW, 
acid rinse, and sanitize but I'm afraid I won't get the ball valve part of 
it cleaned. I am able to get a tap on it and I suppose I could rig up a pump 
to circulate cleaner and sanitizer through. I ask because I can already hear 
the yeast in the slow bubbling Sanke keg begging me to get that big IPA off 
their back!

What about those keg couplers that are adapted for cleaning? Are they worth 
the investment?

Also, should I cut ~3/4 to 1" off the bottom of the spear to stay above the 
yeast cake? I have another dusty full length spear under the stairs to use 
if I ever want to serve from the keg so sacrificing one is no problem.

Other lurking issues to be aware of?

Paul in Cheyenne, WY

(I haven't visited the Rennerian calculator but I know from his past posts 
that Jeff has quite a bit of experience in using Sankes and if I were at 0,0 
I'd likely get all the answers I need)




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 23:19:01 -0600
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cask Conditioning Advice Needed

On Feb 8, 2006, at 09:37, Ricardo Cabeza <expunged at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> I really want to cask condition a few beers in a wood barrel.

So do I -- specifically, I'm interested in trying to recreate some  
English (stale porter) and Belgian (oud bruin) beers that were  
traditionally aged in wood. My problem is that I have neither the  
space nor the financial wherewithal to purchase wooden barrels.

What I do have at my disposal is a large number of 5-gallon food  
grade plastic buckets. Everyone says plastic is oxygen permeable; my  
question is, how does its permeability compare to wood? For instance,  
how many months in plastic is roughly equivalent to, say, three  
months in wood?

- --
Craig S. Cottingham
craig.cottingham at gmail.com
Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1] Apparent Rennerian)
OpenPGP fingerprint: 0x7977F79C





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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:03:20 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How can I buildup the oxygen (lipids) levels of existing yeast cells?

Hello Everyone,

> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:45:14 -0800
> From: "Steve Seeley" <seseeley at hotpop.com>
> Subject: How can I buildup the oxygen (lipids) levels of existing yeast cells?
>
> Hi all,
>
> Is it possible to buildup the oxygen (lipids) levels of existing
> yeast cells?  Or can this only be done for daughter cells?  I have
> collected yeast out of a primary that I would like to reuse.  However
> these yeast should have depleted oxygen reserves that need building up.

Yes, this is the first thing that normally happens when 
you aerate the wort at pitching.  

The cells utilise the oxygen to restore their membrane lipid 
compostion by making UFA's and ergosterol and incorporating 
this in the membrane lipids. But it obviously takes some 
energy and building blocks to do so. Some glycogen and 
precursors usually always inside the cell and provides 
a beneficial quickstart when luck returns, but I like to 
feed the stored yeast in a small amount of wort (not 
for growth, but just to make sure it isn't starving, in 
particular if it is coming from long storage), and 
aerate the culture repeatadly. I am not sure exactly how 
long time it takes, but I've seen some indications that 
it may take up to the order of 4-5 hours until lipid 
composition of the membranes are restored. You can
probably experiment with the procedure, and with different
temperatures during this procedure.

I don't have the reference at hand but I recall another 
paper where it was confirmed in one specific test that with 
the proper timing, and control of the aeration, you could 
reduce the ppm value from 16 to 8 ppm and still end up with 
the same membrane quality. This indicates that alot of the 
oxygen is somehow wasted, and that there is alot more to 
this than the crude ppm values where the oxygen discussions
often focus.

For an unusually practical paper, see

"Evaluation of the Oxygen Requirement of Lager and 
 Ale Yeast Strains by Preoxygenation"
- -- http://www.mbaa.com/TechQuarterly/Articles/2003/1014-01.pdf

There are also other related and very interesting and 
available (but more abstract) papers.

"Lipid dynamics in yeast under haem-induced unsaturated 
 fatty acid and/or sterol depletion"
- -- http://www.biochemj.org/bj/378/0899/3780899.pdf

There are the only ones I remember from the top of my head, 
but I know there are more.

 /Fredrik



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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:37:00 -0500 
From: "Stevens, Jonathan C" <Jonathan.Stevens at dhs.gov>
Subject: Why pitch cold?

>Bob Tower, why do you pitch into wort that's 5 degrees colder than your
>target fermentation temperature? Isn't that hard on the yeast? I don't
>understand the goal.
>
>John Peed
>Oak Ridge, TN

For numerous reasons, many of the big boys in Europe have adopted a start
cold -
free rise regime.  Others have adopted this approach including New Belgium. 
There are many advantages:

1.  Dissolved o2 in wort is a function of temperature: the lower the temp,
the
more o2 in solution.  The more o2, the healthier the yeast.  Yeast use up
the
dissolved o2 within the first few hours of a healthy ferment.  You can prove
this to yourself by racking wort into a carboy, oxygenating, and then
pitching. 
After oxygenation, the wort darkens, just like Grandma's six-month-old
canned
peaches.  If you have a good healthy starter, the yeast will have sucked up
all
the free o2 within a few hours and the wort will once again be lighter in
color
(all appropriate observations regarding light dispersion of yeast in
suspension
aside).  Try it some time, go back and look at your wort color every hour
after
pitching and you will be amazed at how rapidly the color change takes place.
So
anyway, you want the wort as cool as possible as early in the ferment as
possible.  
2.  Yeast can "take hold" of the wort at relatively low temps.  Bad stuff
(bacteria) like it warm.  Start cold, yeast can take hold but the bad stuff
can't.
3.  Get the product out the door.  The warmer the ferment, the quicker the
beer
finishes.  When counting beer in millions of hectoliters, a one-day decrease
in
the fermentor means big bucks.  This is controversial, but it is becoming
widely
accepted that the vast majority of the esters produced in the ferment occur
at
the transition from aerobic to anaerobic activity.  As long as this
transition
occurs at relatively cool temps, the ester profile remains relatively clean.
So
lets say you aerate and pitch at 50.  The yeast suck up the o2 and take
command
of the ferment within 4-12 hours and roughly 90% of the ester profile is
set,
now you can allow the beer to free rise to 76, 80, at some breweries up to
86
Fahrenheit.  This results in a very fast ferment that is still fairly clean.

And a strong ferment is very important when your beer stream is 10, 12, up
to
13% abv.  Yes places like Ommegang and Unibroue are fermenting at 86 and
their
beers have big ester profiles, but they are starting out warm.
4.  No diacetyl.  No need for a diacetyl rest because you've fermented in
temperature ranges where the yeast are converting all of the precursors
readily.
 This translates into another day or two of time saved in the brewing
process.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but these are the ones that readily come
to
mind.  I just made a Koelsch using this method: started at 45 Fahrenheit
with
WLP 036 Duseldorf Alt yeast and allowed it to free rise to 67 after the
airlock
showed activity (I realize 67 is still in fairly "clean" territory, but
that's
as warm as my house gets right now).  I made two Alts with the same yeast
before
this batch and fermented the first at 52 for two weeks and the second at 49
for
two weeks.  The Koelsch turned out cleaner, lower ester profile and lower
sulfur
note.  This is anecdotal, different malts, different styles, some of what
I'm
perceiving as esters in the Alts may in fact be Munich...but I'll tell ya
what,
the Koelsch was down to 1.006 in no time at all as compared to the two Alts,
and
I think it's a bit cleaner all around.

Cheers,

Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego

P.S.  Thanks to all the HBD'rs who have submitted entries to America's
Finest
City.  Your entries have been rolling in nicely with no disasters thus far. 
Bottle check-in is this Saturday and judging is on the 17th & 18th.  Stay
tuned!


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:45:16 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Ph Perplexity


Unix Bob posted a question regarding his water test.  I use the term 'water 
test' loosely since it clearly has some errors in the report somewhere.

The results are not really complete enough to ascertain what is going on.  
But most importantly, the Hardness and Calcium levels do not agree in the 
least bit.  If the hardness value of 98 ppm is correct, then the calcium 
must be below 39 ppm.  If the calcium content of 77 ppm is correct, then the 
hardness must be at least 193 ppm as CaCO3.

I recommend that Bob go back to the water company and ask to speak to 
someone more knowlegible.  Point out this discrepancy with the calcium and 
hardness.  In addition, try to get the other water constituents like sodium, 
chloride, sulfate, and bicarbonate.  That will make it easier to verify that 
the rest of the water results are valid.  Bob did include the alkalinity 
result.  The alkalinity can be used to back calculate the bicarbonate 
content.   But at this point, I have to question the validity of all the 
reported results.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 05:53:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Ted Hull <theartfuldudger at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: cask conditioning

Chad- I think that, unless you're trying to get
character out of an ex-something-else barrel (bourbon,
scotch, wine, port, etc, etc.), there's no great
reason to use wood for cask conditioning. And those
barrels are generally of a scale that you're gonna
have to brew a lot of beer to fill.

FWIW, Ray Daniels' Real Ale Festival and our own GA
cask ale tasting both use stainless casks. The local
one bought supplies from ukbrewing.com.

Personally, I think you can do a pretty good
approximation in a corny keg. The only problem I ever
had was the slow leak of pressure when carbonating
naturally. That may be taken care of by laying the
cask on its side. A little dip tube surgery, and
you're good to go to serve from that position.

On a related subject, I'm in the gang of "when was the
last time you brewed" folks. I still have a copy of
BYO from several years ago where they put a stainless
hand bilge pump into service as a beer engine. I've
casually looked a couple of time, but haven't seen
that these are still being made. Anyone find one?

Cheers!

Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA



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Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:58:16 -0500
From: Paul Hethmon <phethmon at hethmon.com>
Subject: Cask Conditioning Info

  > Subject: Cask Conditioning Advice Needed
  >
> 2)  Should I go with pitched, unpitched & smooth, or unpitched & rough?
> Anyone ever experiment with the charred oak barrels used by some distilleries?

At the last Brewers Jam here in Knoxville, Alltech's Lexington Brewing
Company had some of their Kentucky Bourbon Barrel Ale on tap. They take used
bourbon barrels, add their ale and let it age. Quite a nice taste. More info
on their website:  http://www.kentuckyale.com

Paul

- -- 
Paul Hethmon
phethmon at hethmon.com
Farragut, Tennessee
[443.2, 182.3] Apparent Rennerian








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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:03:41 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Rennerian

Glyn is really moving!  From somewhere near Indonesia, it would seem,  
to Tennessee, in 23 minutes:

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 11:40:28 -0800 (PST)
> [7013.1, 8.1] Apparent Rennerian
>

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:03:47 -0800 (PST)
> From: Glyn Crossno <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
>
> Not sure where Jeff is but I am closer to here.
> [480.6, 197.2] Apparent Rennerian


How'd you do that, Glyn?

BTW, I'm still here at [0,0].

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Calculate your Rennerian Coordinates at
http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml




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Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:27:48 +0000
From: "Unix Bob" <neutrinodust at hotmail.com>
Subject: Ph Perplexity

Greetings all,

Although I have been making some decent beers for awhile, I have recently 
decided to pay closer attention to water chemistry. The first thing I did 
was get a analysis from my water company.  The results they supplied were ( 
among other things)
  Alkalinity    44ppm
  Calcium      77ppm
  Hardness   98ppm
  Calcium Carbonate   50-100 mg/l
  Magnesuim  (not listed)
  Ph                8.4


Next I purchased some 'precision' Ph test papers ( No. 4662) from a brewing 
supply that are supposed to indicate Ph levels between 4.6 and 6.2 and 
change color from yellow (4.6) to brown (6.2).
(Here's where the plot thickens)
As an experiment, I decided I needed to 'test' my tap water. To my surprise, 
the papers did not change color at all.  OK, I thought, perhaps my water Ph 
of 8.4  is out of the range of the test paper so nothing is indicated.
During last Saturdays Pre-Prohibition Pilsener ( thanks Jeff),  I tested the 
mash during the sacrification rest and again - nothing,  just the yellow 
indicating 4.6.
On a whim, I decided to add 1/8 tsp of baking soda to the mash to see if I 
could raise the Ph. Voila! The papers indicated a rise in Ph to about 5.2.  
Now I'm really confused.  I would not have expected that grain bill of 
6.5Lbs 6-row, 1.5 Lbs rice and 1Lb Maise to lower the PH by 3.8.
Out of curiosity today I bought a pool test kit this just to see if my tap 
water Ph really was 8.4. The pool test kit indicated 8.4 right on the money.
I really was expecting to have to add something to lower the Ph not raise 
it. Can these papers possibly be right or should I look for better method to 
test my Ph.

Any (reasonable) suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 -Bob in Pittsburgh PA
  How 'bout them Steelers an 'nat?



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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 18:44:16 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Racking via the Sanke spear

Paul in Cheyenne, WY wrote (and I sneaked a look at the queue to answer)

> One of my favorite fermentation vessels is the Sanke keg. ...  it  
> occurred to me that perhaps I should simply re-insert the spear,  
> hook up the tap, and apply CO2 to move the beer.

That works well, and if you want, you can rack directly to another  
Sankey if you have a second tap.  You need to remove the "pea" one- 
way valve from the receiving tap if you do.  You can put it back,  
then.  This way, the beer can finish in the second, sealed Sankey and  
you will end up with carbonated beer (as long as it doesn't have a  
lot of remaining sugar, in which case you'll have overcarbonated beer.)

> I found the Keg Man kit. And it is now ordered. This looks like it  
> will make spear removal and replacement a snap.

You can also follow my instructions at http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/ 
4027.html#4027-14

> - Can the spear assembly be cleaned and sanitized effectively while  
> removed from the keg? It has never been cleaned, just gathering  
> dust under the stairs since its joyous ride home from the junkyard.  
> I could soak in PBW, acid rinse, and sanitize but I'm afraid I  
> won't get the ball valve part of it cleaned.

Sanitization of a clean spear and valve is easy - just boil it.  It  
doesn't all have to be immersed - steam will work, too.

Cleaning will take a bit more care, but I think that unless it's  
really thick with proteinaceous gunk, you should be able to clean  
it.  When I empty a Sankey (I dispense from them, too), I rinse the  
spear off, then hole it upside down, then drain it by pushing in the  
ball with a screwdriver handle (it's hard to do with your thumb, but  
it can be done).

> What about those keg couplers that are adapted for cleaning? Are  
> they worth the investment?

Those are for cleaning without removing the spear.  Not necessary.

> Also, should I cut ~3/4 to 1" off the bottom of the spear to stay  
> above the yeast cake?

No.  Most of the yeast will stay behind, and you won't lose any beer  
that way, either.  If you want, you could run the first pint or so  
out into a glass and sample it, then the beer should run pretty  
clear.  Ditto if you keg in the Sankey.  Only the first pint or so  
will be yeasty.

> Other lurking issues to be aware of?

Well, this system will work better if you send me beer. -)

> (I haven't visited the Rennerian calculator but I know from his  
> past posts that Jeff has quite a bit of experience in using Sankes  
> and if I were at 0,0 I'd likely get all the answers I need)

Sure - come by for a beer any time.

Jeff
- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
Calculate your Rennerian Coordinates at
http://hbd.org/rennerian_table.shtml




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