---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
Visit http://www.northernbrewer.com  to show your appreciation!
               Or call them at 1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Sanke ("A.J deLange")
  Re: Cask Conditioning (Eric Wescott)
  Sankey spear / cask condition (Glyn Crossno)
  Re: Cask Conditioning Advice Needed (Dylan tack)
  Cask Conditioning and Real Ale ("mbobiak")
  Re: Why pitch cold? (Matt)
  metallic flavor in first keg beer (Aaron Martin Linder)
  Yeast and oxygen ("Peed, John")


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*           The HBD Logo Store is now open!             *
*            http://www.hbd.org/store.html              *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*  Suppport this service: http://hbd.org/donate.shtml   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*   Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

LOOKING TO BUY OR SELL USED EQUIPMENT? Please do not post about it here. Go
instead to http://homebrewfleamarket.com and post a free ad there.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req@hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:15:47 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Sanke

Of course you can "rack" from a Sanke keg. I "rack" a beer or 2 into a 
glass from a Sanke keg almost every night. What I'm getting at is that 
the keg is a device designed for exactly this purpose. Though you may 
not think of drawing a glass of beer from the keg as racking that is in 
fact exactly what you are doing.

There are a couple of tools for removing spears and as you have one on 
the way no need to get into that further. Just remember to think safety 
when removing spears. They are aptly named. I always clean them in place 
in the keg but I imagine they could be cleaned and sanitized externally 
as well. Certainly the outside can be sprayed with iodophor and the 
inside filled with it and the ball end can be stuck into a bucket full 
of it but a trough long enough to hold the whole thing might be hard to 
come by. A blueing tank would probably do. To get iodophor to flow 
through the mechanism requires that the ball be depressed so fluid can 
flow and this is what the coupler does. I never tried putting the 
coupler on the spear when it's out of the keg but you might be able to 
work that. OTOH the spear appears to be capable of being disassembled if 
you can come up with some sort of jig to hold it in place as you depress 
the spring (carefull - it's a strong spring) while rotating the tabs 
into the removal slots. Not all spears may be built this way. Certainly 
you can install the spear in the keg, invert the keg and shoot cleaner 
into the beer out port, collect it from the gas port and pump it back in 
which brings us to "filling" couplers. These are normal (well, they tend 
to be the higher quality) couplers from which the check ball and check 
valve have been removed. It is very handy if this is fitted with valves 
(Micromatic) or, as you mention, you can buy a kit (high quality 
coupler, two valves, two pieces of hose - fairly expensive) from Sabco. 
These can be used for cleaning and filling.

Should you cut the bottom off the spear? I'd let experience be my guide 
on that. In my own brewing I fill  Sanke kegs direct from the fermenter 
and then put them on a handle. The first couple of pints may come turbid 
but who cares? After the beer is thoroughly settled it is an easy matter 
to rack it to another keg. And another if you want. After a racking or 
two the yeast cake is so thin that the standard length spear will not 
pick it up (the bottom of the keg is rounded slightly).

I have switched to Sanke kegs completely and don't miss the Cornies a 
bit. The new 1/4 bbl Sankes cost  about the same as a new Cornelius, 
have the same shape (taller than wide). holds 2 1/2 more gallons of 
beer, has a single connector, can be used in any keggerator without 
modifications, work with lots of portable dispensing setups and can be 
maintained with parts bought from the local draught beer supplier or 
Rapids or Micromatic or..... By the time you have invested in a 
filling/cleaning kit, spear removal and retaining ring removal tools you 
will have spent a bit but it is well worth the savings in time, trouble 
and frustration (why is it when you need a Corny gas connector you can 
always find 5 beer connectors but no gas and conversely).


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:13:11 -0500
From: Eric Wescott <eric.wescott at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cask Conditioning

On Feb 8, 2006, at 09:37, Ricardo Cabeza <expunged at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I really want to cask condition a few beers in a wood barrel.

I've been doing a lot of reading on this topic (aging beers with oak).
 Preliminary experiments say that oak makes beer better.

Regarding type of oak, you want white oak (not red oak).  American,
French, Hungarian... they all have minor differences.  Read up on them
and determine which flavor secondary notes might appeal to you.  I've
found American oak to be a-okay, and about 50% the price (or less!).

Oak barrels and aging are a tricky thing at smaller scales.  What you
need to look at is the volume to surface area relationship.  The
larger barrels (~30 gallon) have what might be considered an ideal
ratio.  Small barrels (5 and 10 Gallon) have much too high of a
surface area for volume, so you have to drastically reduce your
exposure time or risk over-oaking.  To do it right in barrels, for
longer periods, you will need to get larger barrels, and watch your
exposure times.

Other oaking options to produce the oak-cask flavor do exist, and much
cheaper than oak barrels.  The cheapest would be oak powder or oak
chips.  Then you can also get oak cubes, barrel staves, and something
called an oak-boy (a large surface area stick).  All of these are
things you'd put into a carboy and let your brew sit on it for a
while.

I like the chips, and have done several brews with them (meads, wines,
ciders and now 3 beers).  I steam them for a few minutes in the
microwave, then drop them into an empty carboy.  I rack the beer into
the carboy and onto the waiting chips (1 oz for 5G, cost ~$0.50).  I
then leave it until it clears and the oak chips sink (in 3-8+ weeks).

Chips will add a bit of a dirty looking haze at first.  That will
clear over a week or two.  Then the chips will start to sink, which is
roughly when they have yeilded what they have for flavor.

I find 1 oz for 5G of beer about right, and I give it 1+ months.  Some
people like more oak for less time (1-2 weeks), and taste along the
way.  I've read arguements in favor of more time with the wood, as it
releases more of the secondary notes from the wood.  I'm also too busy
to taste and rack daily or even weekly, so 1oz of chips for 1-3 months
is just right for me.

Let us know what you decide to do with the oak.  I think oak and beer
is a great combo!

- --EW
Stratford, CT



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:43:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Glyn Crossno <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sankey spear / cask condition

I have been meaning to buy the kegman kit. Paul please
give us a review after you have used it a couple of
times. Also how do you clean the keg after
fermentation? Could you not just do the same with the
spear?

I would think that for cask conditioning you would
want some wood because it harbors some of the
flavoring critters. If it was just oxygen you could
splash the beer to achive the desired results.

Glyn
So. Middle TN



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:08:04 -0600
From: Dylan tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: Cask Conditioning Advice Needed

> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 23:19:01 -0600
> From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com>
> grade plastic buckets. Everyone says plastic is oxygen permeable; my
> question is, how does its permeability compare to wood?

 From Jeff Sparrow's "Wild Brews".  The HDPE bucket is a little  
alarming:

Oxygen diffusion through selected fermentation vessels

Type                  Volume (L)   O2 (cc/L/year)
Rodenbach wooden tun              20,000     0.53
Rodenbach wooden tun              12,000     0.86
Wine barrel                       300        8.5
Flextank HDPE fermentor           200        20
Homebrew barrel                   40         23
Homebrew HDPE bucket              20         220
Glass carboy w/ silicone stopper  20         17
Glass carboy w/ wooden stopper    20         0.1
Glass carboy w/ 30 cm
vinyl immersion tube              20         0.31


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:36:03 GMT
From: "mbobiak" <mbobiak at ic.sunysb.edu>
Subject: Cask Conditioning and Real Ale

I think there are two competing ideas of what is being refered to as
cask conditioned beer in this discussion. The original poster was asking
about barrel (aka cask)/ wood aging beer in a style that would provide a
bit of oxidation and minor wood or barrel character (whether that's
appropiate or not is another debate.)  Cask conditioning is also used to
describe the process of carrying out secondary fermentation in the
serving vessel, a technique associated with real ales which are
generally served very fresh and have little opportunity to oxidize
If you want to impart the flavor of the barrel (and the pervious
contents of the barrel) it would be best to age your beer in that
barrel, however as noted, for a homebrewer this can be a lot of trouble
and very expensive.  I've used oak powder, chips and balls in different
brews and have been very happy with how they have influenced the flavor.
so in this regard, I think that a plastic fermented supplemented with
some oak is a very good approximation of the old techniques.
As for cask conditioning real ales, I've started using corny kegs with
the dip tube cut, adding a dose of priming sugar when racking to the
keg, then making sure the gaskets are set with about 30 psi of CO2 has
worked well for me.  I'm still working on building the hand pump
featured in BYO in early 2005 but a cobra tap has worked well so far.
HTH
Matt


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:42:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Why pitch cold?

Chad Stevens sez: "This is controversial, but it is becoming widely
accepted that the vast majority of the esters produced in the ferment
occur at the transition from aerobic to anaerobic activity."

I am more inclined to say that ester production starts to dramatically
ramp up as reproduction begins to stall, and that this is the prime
phenomenon to consider in terms of esters (and I'm also inclined to
agree that it is controversial).  As reproduction requires sufficient
sterol/UFA reserves, and as these reserves are usually built up during
times of plentiful oxygen, perhaps that is what Chad meant by the
transition from aerobic to anaerobic activity?  If not then I am not
sure what is meant by "aerobic" activity.  In any case for my ferments
I think this point occurs more at the 1-2 day mark.

By the way, I think the following paper does an great job of explaining
one way to look at ester production overall.  I have to leave it to
more experienced people to judge whether it is believable, but I can't
see anything wrong with it myself.  If it is correct, the situation is
a bit simpler than many might think.  Essentially, it claims that ester
production starts in earnest when the yeast cells produce certain
enzymes, and this occurs when the cell runs out of membrane material
and can't keep dividing.  (Simplification of course.)  Acetyl-CoA
levels are *in my reading of this* not a controlling factor (except, I
suppose, in an on-off sense where fermentation is either over or it is
not, which may be important after all).

http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/backissues/49-11.htm

Matt





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:40:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Martin Linder <lindera at umich.edu>
Subject: metallic flavor in first keg beer

Hi,

I recently bought a reconditioned corny keg from Sabco and used it for my 
first kegging experience.  I opened the keg, rinsed it thoroughly with 
water, sanitized with iodophor and rinsed out the iodophor.  i then racked 
a batch of very hoppy, centennial IPA into it with a hop bag with 2 ounces 
of centennial hops and purged the head space several times.  I then 
carbonated by using the high pressure/shaking method rather than the sit 
and wait a week method.

The beer tasted great for approximately 2-3 days.  since then, i think i 
can start to detect a very faint metallic flavor and aroma!  There is no 
reason that I can see to blame anything to do with the brewing or 
fermentation of the beer, as I have brewed several batches the same way 
with no problems.  The biggest change of course is that I kegged this 
batch.  While the keg is newly reconditioned, I rinsed it thoroughly, and 
the beer tasted good for 2-3 days at least.

Based upon past posts I am leaning toward blaming the shaking method of 
carbonation as hastening oxidation of the beer, as this can lead to 
metallic flavors(past posts said so at least).  However, others carbonate 
by shaking and seem to get good results!?  My CO2 setup is brand new, so I 
don't see why it would be related to that.

I guess I plan to carbonate my next two kegs of precious lager by simply 
hooking up the gas in and leaving them sit for a week.  i also plan to 
purge the entire keg (filled with rinse water to the rim) with CO2 before 
racking into it to try to prevent this problem.

Any ideas, disputes,confirmation would be appreciated.

Aaron Linder
Ann Arbor, MI





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:49:59 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Yeast and oxygen


OK, I never did quite get the scoop on yeast oxygenation.  All the fuss
with oxygenation seems to center around pre-fermentation oxygenation to
build the cell walls.  But that begs the question: Why does stirring on
a stir plate for the duration of starter fermentation make a starter
ferment so much more rapidly and build more yeast?  Also, if you pitch
the whole thing after stirring for a day, do you risk oxidation?  My
experience says no.  Why not?

John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN




Return to table of contents

---