HOMEBREW Digest #4952 Tue 14 February 2006

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  Using White Labs 565 Saison Yeast ("Steve A. Smith")
  overcarbonation (KEITH R BUSBY)
  Another note on membrane lipids ("Fredrik")
  Re: Growing hops (stencil)
  Percent of Rye... ("Michael Eyre")
  Re: warm pitching/hop poles ("steve.alexander")
  Lowest Price for Pills eVs ("Joni French")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:44:10 -0500 From: "Steve A. Smith" <sasmith11 at verizon.net> Subject: Using White Labs 565 Saison Yeast First, please excuse my tardiness in returning to this issue. I was on travel for work. I just wanted to thank everybody who responded to my question about when/if to rack Saison to a secondary fermenter after pitching WLP 565 Saison Yeast (Dupont Strain) into it, and at what temp to keep the beer during fermentation. All of the responses I received, all based on experience, recommended at least 2 weeks in primary, and a majority recommended at least 3 - 4 weeks in secondary after that (or longer), although not everybody agreed on the necessity of bothering with secondary fermenters. Suggested ferment temps ranged from 75 - 95 F, and oddly enough there is literature, and the example of Brasserie Dupont, to back up using especially primary fermentation temps even to the high extreme of this range! Even with the understanding this is a Belgian style ale, this was quite a surprise to me.. There was one recommendation to go ahead and keg or bottle after approximately two weeks in primary, which this person said was long enough to complete fermentation if you start the fermentation temp at 75 F for four days, and then ramp up the temp one degree per day until hitting 85 F, and thereby retain a desired yeasty profile in the final product. I wonder if it would be better to keg rather than bottle under this suggestion to avoid bottle bombs, since I understand that this quirky yeast often continues to ferment out for long time periods, and can attenuate as high as 95%! I have purchased Phil Markowski's book "Farmhouse Ales" since I posted my question, and learned from his extensive discussion on brewing Saisons and using Dupont yeast, that Brasserie Dupont's Saison goes through primary fermentation for a week at high temps, secondary fermentation for 10 -14 days at a little lower temp, and then is bottle conditioned for 6 to 8 weeks with an added dose of yeast. I highly recommend Markowski's excellent book for the depth of his research, and to gain a better insight into the in's and out's of fermenting with this yeast strain at higher or medium temperatures, and considering varying timeframes during primary, secondary and bottle conditioning. I have no affiliation with the author, etc. Oh, to avoid autolysis during extended fementation, I racked mine to secondary after having held the beer around 78 F in primary for 14 days. At that time it had fermented to about 5.0 Plato, and I plan to let it sit for an additional 2 to 6 weeks at around 75 F before bottling, hopefully getting down to 2.0 Plato or lower. I have not yet decided whether to add additional yeast at bottling time. Steve Smith Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:37:08 -0600 From: KEITH R BUSBY <kbusby at wisc.edu> Subject: overcarbonation I have two batches which turned out to be quite overcarbonated after bottling. What to do? Open them, leave for ? hours and recap? Anyone else done this? TIA, Keith Busby Keith Busby Douglas Kelly Professor of Medieval French Department of French and Italian The University of Wisconsin 618 Van Hise Hall Madison, WI 53706 (608) 262-3941 (608) 265-3892 (fax) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:10:48 +0100 From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com> Subject: Another note on membrane lipids When this membrane thing is for discussion, here is another quite interesting observation on membrane quality and lipid composition that shows the importance of the topic! Plenty of research has indicated a closer relationsship between membrane lipid composition and various stress factors like: heat shock, salt tolerance and osmotic stress, ethanol tolerance... It has been shown that for many stress factors, exposure to stress leads to an acquired increased stress tolerance. It has been found that this mechanism also yields a cross tolerance: Exposing yeast to heat shock (sublethal), will induced not only an increased tolerance to heat shock, but also to salt stress. Lipid composition also affects temperature performance. Cold grown cells has a different lipid composition than warm grown, etc. >From various papers I've seen there are some fairly strong indications that the mechanism of this cross tolerance thing is mediated with regulations in the lipid composition. Expression of various stress genes are though to be an immediate defense, that will lead to longterm improvements, that are realized by tweaking the lipid composition. Typically decreasing the level of saturation. But it seems to be more complex, since also the types of lipids seems to change a bit. Once the new (improved) lipid composition is established, tests show that the stress genes are no longer as heavily expressed on the same does of stress. So in conclusion it seemes that the lipids in yeast play very important roles, and is well worth studying! I consider for several reasons the lipid metabolism to be very central. I've been trying to learn more about that lately in order to find a somewhat decent model for it. To mention one thing, ester synthesis seems related to the lipid metabolism even though alot is still unclear. I think modelling ester synthesis will require modelling of lipid metabolism, in particular it's regulations in response to stress factors. To at least mention something for further reading, here is one paper well worth looking at. "Cellular lipid composition influences stress activation of the yeast general stress response element (STRE)" - -- http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/146/4/877.pdf No doubt there is more to all this tha just lipids! but at least the lipid regulations are worth some serious attention IMO :) But there are more. If you look only in brewing science papers there is alot of good stuff one will miss. I've found that microbio/biochem papers tend to contain very nice papers too. They do not mention the word beer anywhere, but the link is up to your imagination. /Fredrik Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:04:03 -0500 From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net> Subject: Re: Growing hops On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:49:31 -0500, in Homebrew Digest #4951 (February 13, 2006) Bill Velek chats about pole rigging: > > I use 20-foot masts, made of 2-1/2 and 3-inch pvc pipe - just > > slip-assembled, no cement - that are socketed on re-bar pins. > >snip > >What, exactly, do you mean by "socketed". The re-bar stands out of the soil about six inches. The open end of the butt of the mast slips over it. A scrap of shale or a piece of 5/4 PT decking keeps the pole from sinking into the soil. A well-stayed mast experiences little or no lateral force at its base; if a guy does part, the loose socketing permits the mast to fall whole and entire. More rigid socketing, as with > a pipe set in the ground, uses a >tall pipe of the same diameter, and a length of pipe (larger diameter) >as sleeve to join the two pieces. will also fail (given a 20-foot lever arm and an August load of greenery) but not gracefully. >When it's time to harvest, he lifts >the mast out of the larger supporting sleeve, and lowers it to the >ground. I presume two people would does this together, with one on each >mast. With some cunning and forethought (and a calm day) you can slack off the upslope guys and lower the whole rig singlehanded. But that's just grandstanding. >some of them use a trellis or >arbor. [ ... ] >I'm still trying to work this out, weighing all of the pros and cons. > Here's one strong vote for training each bine out along a horizontal wire or trellis, at just over head high off the ground, running north to south. But you need a larger clearing than I have. stencil sends [535.2mi, 86.4deg] AR Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:00:01 -0800 From: "Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Percent of Rye... What's the most percentage of a grain bill you've ever used with Rye? I'm thinking of a huge Rye beer, and wanna know what the upper limit, percentage wise, might be for use of Rye. Ideas? Mike Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:40:00 -0500 From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Re: warm pitching/hop poles Yow - I missed a few days of HBD and a months worth of tech topics have passed downstream. John Peed asks of Bob Tower << why do you pitch into wort that's 5 degrees colder than your target fermentation temperature? Isn't that hard on the yeast? I don't understand the goal. >> The two categories of lipids which require free O2 to construct are sterols and unsaturated fatty acids(UFAs). I've seen a couple papers that show dramatic increases in UFA production in yeast as the temperature drops, and worse than this - dramatic reductions as the temperature rises. Many noobs think ... hey if I pitch into warm wort the yeast grows faster and the fermentation starts quicker and I can go to bed with a smile on my face since the bubbler is bubbling. That's shortsighted. Your warm pitched yeast will have lower UFA levels and this may have a bad impact on the final beer attenuation, fusels and possibly esters. Low UFA yeast are also subject to cold shock. Warm pitching can't improve anything but time to finish and could cause problems so I think it's a bad idea. Cold pitching *may* *possibly* improve things over the norm and can't hurt anything except the schedule. If you have patience then do make sure that your yeast gain oxygen at or below fermentation temp. Of course the whole issue of yeast lipids is most important when the yeast is stresses by hi-grav. - -- Ken Anderson asks about the reasons for warm pitching << I DON'T understand the "warm wort" concept [...] aren't you also giving just as much encouragement to the BAD microorganisms [...] >> Yes Ken, your baloney detector is working properly. In fact it's worse than you suggest. Yeast have optimal growth rates slightly above the respective lager/ale fermentation temps, while some of the most persistent nasties like lactobacteria enjoy optimal growth around 95F. Warm pitching is likely to give a comparative advantage to lacto growth rate over yeast growth rate ! I am not aware of any brewery micros that have better cold performance than yeast, so if you really wanted to advantage the yeasts you'd pitch cold. Yeast have numerous methods of leaving their micro-competitors in the dust. They consume all the O2 rapidly which means only anaerobes, obligate anaerobes, and maybe surface colonies of aerobes can grow. Then they drop the pH lower than anything other than the aceto- and lacto- bacteria can stand to survive. Then they eat up all the simplest sugars first so the majority of micros have no available food source. They leave high levels of ethanol which stops many competitors at around 2%. If you've removed headspace O2 (not an open fermentation) then there is no oxygen available for acetobacteria to crack the ethanol into acetic acid (note many brewery yeasts will convert ethanol to acetic given oxygen and time!). Generally the micros that can survive the fermentation and do some damage (lactos and wild yeasts) are controlled by sanitation procedures. Early pitching is probably most useful in stamping out the rapid growing bacterial competition - competition that should never appear in properly handled boiled wort in the first place. Most of these (coliforms, lactos acetos, zymomonas) prefer temps in the 80F-100F range, but will be stopped cold by one of the yeast competitive strategies above sometime in early fermentation. Yes, pitch early, but pitching warm is almost certainly counterproductive to the infection concern. - -- On hops supports - NO !!!! I don't think guy-wired PVC will support much hops. FWIW I used guy-wired electrical conduit tripods (1.5 inch the thick walled stuff) and it did a fine job till late summer when the hops were full leaved and the first big wind bent the conduit up like pretzels. This is sort of amazing since I can't bend this stuff - major force from the wind. My hunch is that the PVC will crack under a good wind load. Now I am using treated ??6x8inch?? 22ft poles which are planted abt 3-4ft deep, then I have a support wire between two of these. I would have used telephone pole stock, but I couldn't get them delivered. Anyway in early Spring I toss sisal twine back&forth over the wire and stake it to the ground. Train the bines up the sisal. When I harvest I just cut the sisal off at the ground stake point & top. You can tie the tops from 6-8 twines together at the top then hang these in a dry garage/attic to dry. You can get a lifetime supply of sisal at a farm supply place for $20, sold for hay baling. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:18:45 -0500 From: "Joni French" <FFBCFAFUBESB at hotmail.com> Subject: Lowest Price for Pills eVs The most complete Phar macy Online We carry all major medds at bargain price Viggra, Ci ialis, VaIium, Xa naax Phantermiine, Ulltraam and etc... SatiisfactIon Gua ranteeed http://ca.geocities.com/merrielle60658flo65010/ rcFt Return to table of contents
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