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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Using White Labs 565 Saison Yeast ("Steve A. Smith")
  overcarbonation (KEITH R BUSBY)
  Another note on membrane lipids ("Fredrik")
  Re: Growing hops (stencil)
  Percent of Rye... ("Michael Eyre")
  Re: warm pitching/hop poles ("steve.alexander")
  Lowest Price for Pills eVs ("Joni French")


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Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:44:10 -0500
From: "Steve A. Smith" <sasmith11 at verizon.net>
Subject: Using White Labs 565 Saison Yeast

First, please excuse my tardiness in returning to this issue. I was on 
travel for work.  I just wanted to thank everybody who responded to my 
question about when/if to rack Saison to a secondary fermenter after 
pitching WLP 565 Saison Yeast (Dupont Strain) into it, and at what temp to 
keep the beer during fermentation.  All of the responses I received, all 
based on experience, recommended at least 2 weeks in primary, and a majority 
recommended at least 3 - 4 weeks in secondary after that (or longer), 
although not everybody agreed on the necessity of bothering with secondary 
fermenters.  Suggested ferment temps ranged from 75 - 95 F, and oddly enough 
there is literature, and the example of Brasserie Dupont, to back up using 
especially primary fermentation temps even to the high extreme of this 
range!  Even with the understanding this is a Belgian style ale, this was 
quite a surprise to me..



There was one recommendation to go ahead and keg or bottle after 
approximately two weeks in primary, which this person said was long enough 
to complete fermentation if you start the fermentation temp at 75 F for four 
days, and then ramp up the temp one degree per day until hitting 85 F, and 
thereby retain a desired yeasty profile in the final product.  I wonder if 
it would be better to keg rather than bottle under this suggestion to avoid 
bottle bombs, since I understand that this quirky yeast often continues to 
ferment out for long time periods, and can attenuate as high as 95%!

I have purchased Phil Markowski's book "Farmhouse Ales" since I posted my 
question, and learned from his extensive discussion on brewing Saisons and 
using Dupont yeast, that Brasserie Dupont's Saison goes through primary 
fermentation for a week at high temps, secondary fermentation for 10 -14 
days at a little lower temp, and then is bottle conditioned for 6 to 8 weeks 
with an added dose of yeast.  I highly recommend Markowski's excellent book 
for the depth of his research, and to gain a better insight into the in's 
and out's of fermenting with this yeast strain at higher or medium 
temperatures, and considering varying timeframes during primary, secondary 
and bottle conditioning.  I have no affiliation with the author, etc.


Oh, to avoid autolysis during extended fementation, I racked mine to 
secondary after having held the beer around 78 F in primary for 14 days.  At 
that time it had fermented to about 5.0 Plato, and I plan to let it sit for 
an additional 2 to 6 weeks at around 75 F before bottling, hopefully getting 
down to 2.0 Plato or lower.  I have not yet decided whether to add 
additional yeast at bottling time.

Steve Smith




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Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:37:08 -0600
From: KEITH R BUSBY <kbusby at wisc.edu>
Subject: overcarbonation

I have two batches which turned out to be quite overcarbonated after
bottling. What to do? Open them, leave for ? hours and recap? Anyone
else done this?

TIA,

Keith Busby

Keith Busby
Douglas Kelly Professor of Medieval French
Department of French and Italian
The University of Wisconsin
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:10:48 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Another note on membrane lipids

When this membrane thing is for discussion, here is another quite 
interesting observation on membrane quality and lipid composition
that shows the importance of the topic!

Plenty of research has indicated a closer relationsship between 
membrane lipid composition and various stress factors like:  
heat shock, salt tolerance and osmotic stress, ethanol tolerance...

It has been shown that for many stress factors, exposure to stress leads 
to an acquired increased stress tolerance. It has been found that this 
mechanism also yields a cross tolerance: Exposing yeast to heat shock 
(sublethal), will induced not only an increased tolerance to heat shock, 
but also to salt stress.
 
Lipid composition also affects temperature performance. Cold grown
cells has a different lipid composition than warm grown, etc.

>From various papers I've seen there are some fairly strong indications 
that the mechanism of this cross tolerance thing is mediated with 
regulations in the lipid composition.

Expression of various stress genes are though to be an immediate
defense, that will lead to longterm improvements, that are realized by
tweaking the lipid composition. Typically decreasing the level of 
saturation. But it seems to be more complex, since also the types of lipids
seems to change a bit. Once the new (improved) lipid composition is 
established, tests show that the stress genes are no longer as heavily 
expressed on the same does of stress.

So in conclusion it seemes that the lipids in yeast play very important 
roles, and is well worth studying! I consider for several reasons the lipid
metabolism to be very central. I've been trying to learn more about that
lately in order to find a somewhat decent model for it. To mention
one thing, ester synthesis seems related to the lipid metabolism even 
though alot is still unclear. I think modelling ester synthesis will require
modelling of lipid metabolism, in particular it's regulations in response
to stress factors.

To at least mention something for further reading, here is one paper well 
worth looking at.

"Cellular lipid composition influences stress activation of the yeast 
general stress response element (STRE)"
- --  http://mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/146/4/877.pdf

No doubt there is more to all this tha just lipids! but at least the lipid
regulations are worth some serious attention IMO :)

But there are more. If you look only in brewing science papers there is 
alot of good stuff one will miss. I've found that microbio/biochem papers 
tend to contain very nice papers too. They do not mention the word 
beer anywhere, but the link is up to your imagination.

 /Fredrik



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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:04:03 -0500
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Growing hops

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:49:31 -0500, 
in  Homebrew Digest #4951 (February 13, 2006)
Bill Velek chats about pole rigging:


> > I use 20-foot masts, made of 2-1/2 and 3-inch pvc pipe - just
> > slip-assembled, no cement - that are socketed on re-bar pins.
>
>snip
>
>What, exactly, do you mean by "socketed".  

The re-bar stands out of the soil about six inches.  The open end of the butt
of the mast slips over it.  A scrap of shale or a piece of 5/4 PT decking
keeps the pole from sinking into the soil.  A well-stayed mast experiences
little or no lateral force at its base;  if a guy does part, the loose
socketing permits the mast to fall whole and entire.  More rigid socketing, as
with 

> a pipe set in the ground, uses a 
>tall pipe of the same diameter, and a length of pipe (larger diameter) 
>as sleeve to join the two pieces.  

will also fail  (given a 20-foot lever arm and an August load of greenery) but
not gracefully.   

>When it's time to harvest, he lifts 
>the mast out of the larger supporting sleeve, and lowers it to the 
>ground.  I presume two people would does this together, with one on each 
>mast.

With some cunning and forethought (and a calm day) you can slack off the
upslope guys and lower the whole rig singlehanded.  But that's just
grandstanding.
 
>some of them use a trellis or 
>arbor.   [ ... ]
>I'm still trying to work this out, weighing all of the pros and cons.
>
Here's one strong vote for training each bine out along a horizontal wire or
trellis, at just over head high off the ground, running north to south.  But
you need a larger clearing than I have.

stencil sends
[535.2mi, 86.4deg] AR


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Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:00:01 -0800
From: "Michael Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Percent of Rye...

What's the most percentage of a grain bill you've ever used with Rye?
I'm thinking of a huge Rye beer, and wanna know what the upper limit,
percentage wise, might be for use of Rye. Ideas?

Mike 



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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:40:00 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: warm pitching/hop poles

Yow -
I missed a few days of HBD and a months worth of tech topics
have passed downstream.

John Peed asks of Bob Tower
<<
why do you pitch into wort that's 5 degrees colder than your
target fermentation temperature? Isn't that hard on the yeast? I
don't understand the goal.
 >>

The two categories of lipids which require free O2 to construct
are sterols and unsaturated fatty acids(UFAs).   I've seen a couple
papers that show dramatic increases in UFA production in yeast
as the temperature drops, and worse than this - dramatic
reductions as the temperature rises.

Many noobs think ... hey if I pitch into warm wort the yeast
grows faster and the fermentation starts quicker and I can go
to bed with a smile on my face since the bubbler is bubbling.
That's shortsighted.  Your warm pitched yeast will have lower
UFA levels and this may have a bad impact on the final beer
attenuation, fusels and possibly esters.  Low UFA yeast are
also subject to cold shock.

Warm pitching can't improve anything but time to finish
and could cause problems so I think it's a bad idea.  Cold
pitching *may* *possibly* improve things over the norm and
can't hurt anything except the schedule.  If you have patience
then do make sure that your yeast gain oxygen at or below
fermentation temp.

Of course the whole issue of yeast lipids is most important
when the yeast is stresses by hi-grav.
- --
Ken Anderson asks about the reasons for warm pitching
<<
I DON'T understand the "warm wort" concept [...]
 aren't you also giving just as much  encouragement to
the BAD microorganisms [...]
 >>

Yes Ken, your baloney detector is working properly.
In fact it's worse than you suggest.  Yeast have optimal
growth rates slightly above the respective lager/ale
fermentation temps, while some of the most persistent
nasties like lactobacteria enjoy optimal growth around
95F.  Warm pitching is likely to give a comparative
advantage to lacto growth rate over yeast growth rate !
I am not aware of any brewery micros that have better
cold performance than yeast, so if you really wanted to
advantage the yeasts you'd pitch  cold.

Yeast have numerous methods of leaving their
micro-competitors in the dust.  They consume all the O2
rapidly which means only anaerobes, obligate anaerobes,
and maybe surface colonies of aerobes can grow.
Then they drop the pH lower than anything other than
the aceto- and lacto- bacteria can stand to survive.  Then
they eat up all the simplest sugars first so the majority
of micros have no available food source.  They leave high
levels of ethanol which stops many competitors at around 2%.
If you've removed headspace O2 (not an open fermentation)
then there is no oxygen available for acetobacteria to crack
the ethanol into acetic acid (note many brewery yeasts will
convert ethanol to acetic given oxygen and time!).

Generally the micros that can survive the fermentation
and do some damage (lactos and wild yeasts) are controlled
by sanitation procedures.

Early pitching is probably most useful in stamping out the
rapid growing bacterial competition - competition that should
never appear in properly handled boiled wort in the first place.
Most of these (coliforms, lactos acetos, zymomonas) prefer
temps in the 80F-100F range, but will be stopped cold by one
of the yeast competitive strategies above sometime in early
fermentation.

Yes, pitch early, but pitching warm is almost certainly
counterproductive to the infection concern.
- --

On hops supports - NO !!!! I don't think guy-wired PVC
will support much hops.  FWIW I used guy-wired electrical
conduit tripods (1.5 inch the thick walled stuff) and it did a fine
job till late summer when the hops were full leaved and the first big
wind bent the conduit up like pretzels.  This is sort of amazing since
I can't bend this stuff -  major force from the wind.  My hunch is that
the PVC will crack under a good wind load.

Now I am using treated ??6x8inch?? 22ft poles which are planted
abt 3-4ft deep, then I have a support wire between two of these.
I would have used telephone pole stock, but I couldn't get them
delivered.  Anyway in early Spring I toss sisal twine back&forth
over the wire and stake it to the ground.  Train the  bines up the sisal.
When I harvest I  just cut the sisal off at the ground stake point & top.
You can tie the tops from 6-8 twines together at the top then hang
these in a dry garage/attic to dry.

You can get a lifetime supply of sisal at a farm supply place for $20,
sold for hay baling.

 -S



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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:18:45 -0500
From: "Joni French" <FFBCFAFUBESB at hotmail.com>
Subject: Lowest Price for Pills eVs


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