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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: overcarbonation ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: warm pitching/hop poles ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  Re: Percent of Rye... (Petr Otahal)
  re: O2, cell membranes & more ("steve.alexander")
  Why ask rye? (Glyn Crossno)


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:15:45 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: overcarbonation

On Monday, 13 February 2006 at 21:37:08 -0600, KEITH R BUSBY wrote:
> I have two batches which turned out to be quite overcarbonated after
> bottling. What to do? Open them, leave for ? hours and recap? Anyone
> else done this?

Certainly you're not the first person to overcarbonate his beer :-)
What you do now depends mainly on how overcarbonated it is:

1.  If it's really, really high, you'll need to let off the pressure.
    Your idea sounds good, but I have no idea how long to leave them
    for.  I'd be inclined to chill to about between 5 and 10 <insert
    degree sign here>C (9 and 18 <insert degree sign here>F) cooler
    than how you like to drink the beer and leave for a while.  The
    lower temperature will ensure that it's still properly carbonated
    at drinking temperature.

    I've never had to resort to this, so don't rely on the details.

2.  If it's less overcarbonated, but you're afraid of bottle bombs,
    just keep it really cool.  I currently have a Wei<insert German ss
    character here>bier which ended up rather overcarbonated.  It
    should be pretty heavily carbonated anyway, but this one takes a
    couple of minutes settling before I can get it all into one glass.
    Again, the low temperature helps (I have it round freezing).

Greg
- --
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See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:23:09 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: warm pitching/hop poles

On Tuesday, 14 February 2006 at 15:40:00 -0500, steve.alexander wrote:
>
> [good stuff about yeast competition and pitching temperatures dropped]
>
> On hops supports - NO !!!! I don't think guy-wired PVC
> will support much hops.  FWIW I used guy-wired electrical
> conduit tripods (1.5 inch the thick walled stuff) and it did a fine
> job till late summer when the hops were full leaved and the first big
> wind bent the conduit up like pretzels.  This is sort of amazing since
> I can't bend this stuff -  major force from the wind.  My hunch is that
> the PVC will crack under a good wind load.

I use baling twine (nylon, I suppose).  If you have horses and feed
them hay, you'll have lots of this stuff left over.  It's flexible and
strong; I can't begin to imagine it failing under strong winds (which
we get here too).

Greg
- --
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See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:31:50 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <petr.otahal at aardvark.net.au>
Subject: Re: Percent of Rye...

Hi Mike,

I have used 53% malted Rye in a Roggenbier.  Was a very oily mash and had 
to use heaps of rice hulls to get the sparge to flow.

Cheers
Petr


Michael Eyre wrote:

>What's the most percentage of a grain bill you've ever used with Rye?
>I'm thinking of a huge Rye beer, and wanna know what the upper limit,
>percentage wise, might be for use of Rye. Ideas?
>
>Mike



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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:59:53 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: O2, cell membranes & more

Frederik writes,

<<

I don't have the reference at hand but I recall another
paper where it was confirmed in one specific test that with
the proper timing, and control of the aeration, you could
reduce the ppm value from 16 to 8 ppm and still end up with 
the same membrane quality. This indicates that a lot of the 
oxygen is somehow wasted, [...]
>>

I recall reading this perhaps in one of Kathrine Smart's
annual yeast research books.  Another point is that all the
O2-req lipids at conventional yeast pitching rates require
only ~2ppm of O2 so there is a lot of inefficiency which
remains unexplained.

As background, squalene is a precursor to all sterols, but
to convert squalene to sterol requires O2 and energy.

As far as sterol creation and "timing" of O2, Quain
published a paper in JIB 1988 which notes that a decrease
in the yeast storage carbohydrate glycogen is strongly
correlated to sterol production in yeast.  It seems likely
the two are linked.  Yeast accumulate storage carbohydrates
throughout the log phase of growth, but also as a spurt at
the point of flocculation.

If you create a healthy anaerobic starter, then these yeast
should be full of squalene and glycogen.  If you expose
such a slurry to O2 it begins rapidly decomposing the
glycogen and producing sterol.  This is one reason that the
iodine test for yeast glycogen is a crummy test unless you
keep the O2 away.  Oxygen triggers this conversion so long
as the squalene & glycogen are present.

Anyway if your yeast starter is healthy & anaerobically
finished then dropped into aerated wort (this probably
applies to dry yeast too), then the yeast rapidly converts
all the squalene&glycogen to to sterol.  One or the other will
drop low within abt 2 hours, and the levels only increase
slowly throughout fermentation. Your best bet for oxygen
utilization is very early on and then again long after
2 hours and I'd suggest 6+ hours.

If your yeast is aerobically grown (say freshly off a stir
plate) then it probably already has optimal sterol levels
and there is no reason to aerate the wort/beer until 6+
hours after pitching when the yeast squalene & glycogen
has started to increase.  OTOH there may be no need
aerate the wort at all in this case if your yeast have
enough O2-lipids!

==

In a fine list of advantages for cold pitching Chad
Stevens includes:
<<
4.  No diacetyl.  No need for a diacetyl rest because you've
fermented in temperature ranges where the yeast are converting
all of the precursors readily.
>>

I'm not sure I buy that one and would like to hear more on
it. I think the major pathway to diacetyl is when pyruvate
is converted to alpha-acetolactate on the way to amino acid
synthesis, and the alpha-acetolactate is non-enzymatically
decarboxylated to diacetyl.   I can't see how fermentation
temp makes a big difference here.  The acetolactate doesn't
pool because ... ??why??

 -S




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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 07:48:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Glyn Crossno <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Why ask rye?

The most I have used is 20% rye. In my experence most
people do not even like that much, I do. Keep the
grain bed hot. If the mash temps fall to low it is a
slow sparge.

I find bailing twine perfect for hops. It lasts the
full season, but by the next spring you can just pull
and break it. And it is VERY cheap at the farmers
co-op, buy the BIG ball.

Glyn
So. Middle TN




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