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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: online homebrew shops (Calvin Perilloux)
  Rowan Williams - Lagering ("Murray Aldridge")
  n-propanol and culture inhomogenities? ("Fredrik")
  Denver (zukoskyrobert)
  Yeast and FAN (Nathaniel Lansing)
  Re: Warm Lagering, Crystal (Dylan Tack)
  Producing doped beer for taste comparison ("Ben Dooley")
  Spirit of Free Beer XIV ("Mark E.  Hogenmiller")


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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:49:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: online homebrew shops

Guys, guys, guys!  And gals!

You're asking about online homebrew retailers, and giving
various shops and urls, but all you have to do is look at
the header of this digest!

"Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
 Visit http://www.northernbrewer.com  to show your appreciation!"

Please do!  (I'm not associated, but I do order from them 
at times, and their HBD presence reminds me to support them,
some of the guys who support HBD.)

"**** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html ****"

Not to sound like a cheerleader, but these are the people 
who are helping to pay for the servers and connections 
so that we can use HBD.  I do my best to support my much
beloved local shop, but for other gear he doesn't have, 
I do try to return the favor that these guys are doing.

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA



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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 14:52:45 +1100
From: "Murray Aldridge" <aldridge at fjc.net.au>
Subject: Rowan Williams - Lagering


Rowan

Lagering, or cold conditioning, is an integral part of making true lagers. 
6 - 12 weeks of cold conditionioning at as close to 0C
will make a distinct and noticeable difference. the beer will be cleaner, 
much clearer in my experience and with a pure malt and hop taste. Usually 
the head retention  and density of foam seems to improve over time as well.

No doubt others will give you the tech info but to get the best out of what 
you are doing you need to keep it cold. (Yes, looks like another fridge).

Calvin Perrilloux (hiya Calvin, hows things, hope they are going well) won a 
prestigeous brewing comp with a lager that had never been out of the fridge 
(12 - 18 mths from memory). It was remarkably clear and clean  with very 
pure malt/hop flavours.

Cold conditioning just isnt for the big boys or the traditionalists.

Having said that -- see how you go. Fermenting at the correct temperature 
will give you a much better lager than not (well if they are brewed at 
higher temps they really aren't lagers at all, anyway(OK - exceptfor the San 
Francisco steam beers) even without the cold rest. They will be even better 
with it.

Murray Aldridge
Sydney 




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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:55:11 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: n-propanol and culture inhomogenities?

>  >I'm not sure AA/fusel "pairs" is a correct way to describe
>  >it,
> 
> This describes almost the entire issue.
> 
> < iso-butanol, valine >
> < 2-methyl-butanol, isoleucine >
> < 3-methyl-butanol, leucine >
> < 2-phenyl-ethyl alc, phenylalanine > 
> 
> This leaves only n-propanol among the flavor active
> fusels in beer, and it has a somewhat complicated
> origin related to amino synthesis, which I can't
> explain at the moment.

I have not seen the exact pathway identified either but 
n-propanol might be in part related to methionine and 
threonine and it seems more complicated than the other
alcohols. Along with n-propanol it seems propionic acid 
can also be formed. 

The only thing I've seen is that it's clear is how threonine 
can degrade into either 1-amino-2-propanol or propionic 
acid.

- -- http://pathway.yeastgenome.org:8555/
YEAST/NEW-IMAGE?type=PATHWAY
&object=THREOCAT2-PWY

(I had to cut the link due to the 80chL)

The actualy step howto reach propanol is not described, 
but if I am not mistaken, some indirect experiment supports
the hypothesis that the metabolism of both these aminos 
influcence the formation, while exactly how isn't clear.

Here is a link indicating something, but unfortunately I 
have not read this paper
"The results confirm that the production of n-propanol is 
  related to the metabolism of both methionine and threonine."
- --http://www.ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/44/1/17

One can also note that from the aminos Steve mentions,

That valine, isoleucine, leucine, phenylalanine are usually 
classified as group B. But some papers put phenylalanine 
in group C. I've even seen a paper on S.Carlsbergensis
putting valine in group C.

But methionine and threonine are usually put in group A

For some info see:
"Uptake of Amino Acids During Beer Production:
The Concept of a Critical Time Value"
http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/pdfs/2005/ASBCJ-63-0023.pdf

I think the group classification is somewhat crude. As is 
seen in this paper, only group C, is somewhat severly 
repressed by group A, group B is less repressed.

I guess the apparent repression here may take place and 
several layers, not only the transcriptional level, so I am 
not sure how far you can make deep conclusions on it's 
regulations from this simple classification without further 
data. Maybe there is also some more simple competition 
for the amino transporters ontop of all this mess.
There seems to existes a range of various amino acid 
transporters, and each of them have different affinities 
for the various aminos. So each aminos have several 
transporters, some are high affinity gates, some are 
low affinity transporters. 

Perhaps one could make a small project and compare 
the typical fusel and corresponding ester levels, with the 
level of depleted aminos in wort and the exepcted 
incorporation into biomaterial to see how well it 
balances? And how the % balancing varied among the 
aminos vs time? I think this might help understand 
more, and how the process could be tweaked. Anyone 
aware of a paper where this is worked out and presented? 

- ------------------

A question to throw out, unrelated to aminos:

Does anyone know of any papers that
investigate the distribution of phases, and cycle 
times over the population during fermentation? And 
possibly also speculates which factors that affect the 
distribution?

I ask this because since I am attempting to simulate the 
culture, I was hoping to consider the fermenting population 
statistically - ie that the cells are all the same, and that 
instead of considering that x% do it like this, and y% do 
it like this, I will technically assume that all cells in the 
population do it, but with different affinities without 
distinction to wether it actually does both at 
the same time, or if every other cell does different things that 
make the same average.

For example, it is obvious that each individual cell have 
slightly different lags, because their lifes are all different. 
But it is impossible to model 200 billion cells, so I will 
assume that each cell just exists dormancy as per some 
probability and at some point 30% of the population may
be still dormant, while 70% are working - 
but in reality I guess this isn't true "chance" ( I guess there never
is, but anyway), it's probably that the slow 30% are different 
 - maybe of different age, and different shape etc.

Can anyone think of any severe flaws in this simplification?? 
It worries me a bit to be honest but I really need to keep
complexity down.

 /Fredrik



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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:15:52 -0500
From: <zukoskyrobert at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Denver

I will be moving to Denver shortly and am interested in Denver's brew clubs. 
What problems do brewers have with the water if any.

bobz 



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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:56:44 -0500
From: Nathaniel Lansing <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast and FAN

>From Scott Laboratoies...
>>YANC stands for Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen Content.
>> It is the sum of assimilable nitrogen from ammonium ions
>>and the assimilable Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) present in
>>the juice/must. Low levels of YANC are associated with the
>>production of undesirable sulfide compounds.
>>Recommended levels range from 250 ppm-350 ppm
>>or higher depending on the initial BRIX level.

To complicate the issue, the 'dirty' nature of wine musts
supply numerous of microrganisms that compete with
the yeast during lag time, and deplete the YANC during
extended cold-soak periods. So a must that starts with
sufficient YANC at the start may indeed need DAP 
suppliments at approx 1/3 attenuation.



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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:57:35 -0600
From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: Warm Lagering, Crystal

> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:34:39 +1100
> From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
> Subject: Warm Lagering? [Sec: Unclassified]
>
> I have a cellar that stays around 18C / 64F for most of the year.  If
> I cold ferment my lagers, give them a diacetyl rest and then keg  the
> beer under a CO2 blanket, am I undoing all the good work by leaving
> the kegged lager in the relatively warm cellar?

I too have been exploring making lager beer with limited resources.  I
have an unheated storage room, which hangs around 50F in the winter,
and a kegerator fridge I keep at about 32F (arguably too cold, even for
serving, but my previous freezer died last year, and I'm afraid my
homebrew thermostat killed it, so I haven't gotten around to tinkering
with this fridge yet).

Anyway - my approach is to aim for a lagering period, with the
temperature equal or less than the ferment temp.  Here are my two most
recent attempts:

Dopplebock - ferment in cellar, 50F, lager in a keg (probably the some
keg I will serve from) in my fridge at 32F.  Since this is so cold, I
will lager it for a longer time, probably 3 months.  My fridge holds 4
kegs, so I can still have room for 3 for serving.

Vienna Lager - 50F ferment, 50F lager, both in the cellar.  I got a
little lucky, and we had a cold snap right after I racked the beer, and
the room was down to 38-40F for a few days.

Both of these beers were fermented using WYeast Bavarian Lager.


One other option you should consider - I have had good results brewing
lager styles using "California" Lager yeast.  It's not just for Anchor
Steam clones!  One of my comrades uses this yeast extensively, to
ferment in a 60-65F basement.  The results so far have been promising.



> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:47:53 +1100 (EST)
> From: Oscar Hammond <ozcah71 at yahoo.com.au>
> Subject: Crystal
>
> I've seen a lot about Crystal Grain/malt.
>
> Can some one fill me in on what it does to beer.
> How do I use it?
> How long do I steep it for?
> How much should I use?

Crystal malt (also called caramel malt) adds color, sweetness, and body
to a beer.  Lighter crystal is associated with candy/caramel sweet
flavors, and darker crystal (say 120L) adds burnt sugar flavors and
raisin/prune.  (You may think prune-beer sounds icky - but it can be
quite good.  Theakston Old Peculiar comes to mind as a favorite brew
with this flavor).

Crystal is also largely unfermentable, so it will raise the final
gravity of your beer.

The usual procedure is to steep it at about 158F for 30-45 minutes.

How much depends on the style, but 5% - 15% is common.

 -Dylan









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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:54:56 -0500
From: "Ben Dooley" <bendooley at gmail.com>
Subject: Producing doped beer for taste comparison

Hello all,

I'm a relatively new homebrewer, and a new member to this list,
although I have been making extensive reference to its archive. Really
the best resource I've found.

I have two questions, actually, but they are unrelated.

First, does anyone have any suggestions on how to make small
quantities of "doped" beer for taste comparison? I have heard a lot of
talk about phenols, diacetyl, fusel alcohols, etc. but have no real
sense for when they are or aren't present in a beer. To that end, I'd
be very interested in doing some small, controlled experiments so that
I could learn to identify these tastes (I think I've got the skunky
beer sensory input down. I opened a saison the other day and the smell
was so overwhelming, I think skunk might have been an actual
ingredient.)

The second, mostly unrelated question is how much and in what way can
brewing water really be bad? In this weeks discussion, there have been
a lot of comments about how you might as well not even bother with
this or that water. While I realize that the water has a huge impact
on taste, putting aside ph issues, high ppm of chlorine et al, and
outright pollution, are the objections because the water does not fit
a certain style profile or because it will make beer that tastes plain
bad? I guess this is actually more related to the first question than
I thought. I've been frequently surprised by the insistence of brewers
to make their pale ale water profile match Burton on Trent, for
example. I like Bass ale, but could you get a perfectly tasty pale ale
with the water profile you have?

Thanks for sharing your collective wisdom.

Best,

Ben



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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 21:14:30 -0500
From: "Mark E. Hogenmiller" <mehogenmiller at cox.net>
Subject: Spirit of Free Beer XIV

Plan now to enter the Brewers United for Real Potable's (BURP) Fourteenth 
Annual Spirit of Free Beer (SoFB)competition.

- -- The deadline for entries to be submitted is Friday, 5 May 2006. So get 
your systems brewing!

- -- The competition will be held on Saturday, 13 May 2006 at the Old Dominion 
Brewing Company in Ashburn, Virginia.

The Details

The SoFB competition is open to all homebrewers and will judge all BJCP/AHA 
sanctioned styles including Meads and Ciders.  The SoFB competition is
judged by experienced BJCP certified judges.  The SoFB prides itself on the 
quality of the comments made and prizes that are awarded.

In addition Spirit of Free Beer is a qualifying event for Masters 
Championship of Amateur Brewing MCAB IX 2006.

Information will be posted shortly to the Spirit of Free Beer website at 
http://www.burp.org

Mark Hogenmiller
SoFB Publicity Minister
Washington DC, Virginia, Maryland

1981 - 2006 Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) Silver Anniversary -
25 Years and Going Strong



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