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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Crystal (Oscar Hammond)
  Re: FAN requirements for fermentation ("steve.alexander")
  Water Analysis, Part....Doh! (Dan Jeska)
  More water analysis (Calvin Perilloux)
  Mail order & Compost follow up (Glyn)
  What is acceptable beer? ("Fredrik")
  Re: another water report ("Martin Brungard")
  Warm Lagering? [Sec: Unclassified] ("Williams, Rowan")


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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:47:53 +1100 (EST)
From: Oscar Hammond <ozcah71 at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Crystal

Hiya,

I've seen a lot about Crystal Grain/malt.
I understand you have to steep it to get the benefit 
from it but what I don't really get is what you do
get from it.

Can some one fill me in on what it does to beer.
How do I use it?
How long do I steep it for?
How much should I use?
(I am still using kits so please take that into
consideration).

Any help would be most appreciated.

Catchya
Osc


		


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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:19:43 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: FAN requirements for fermentation

Jeff Renner wrote:

>> wine must carries ~100-150ppm  of FAN and often
>> another ~20-40ppm of nitrogen in ions accessible to yeast.  That's
>> not enough for wine fermentation
>
> And yet, it occurs! ;-)
> With no help from added FAN sources.  And has for millennia.
> What did you mean, Steve?


Sorry, that explanation was abbreviated into silliness after an
8kB bounce.

I don't generally add nitrogen when making wine, yet achieving
full attenuation isn't much of a problem.  I'm away from home 
& my references at the moment, but the 100-150ppm FAN and
20-40ppm came from a wide study of vinifera in upstate NY.
None of the must obtained for the study was in the supposed
'optimal' range for FAN which is (from memory) 350-500ppm
FAN in wine must.  Some sources suggest about twice  this level
 - I can't explain why.

Note that a 22P wine must has about 2.5 times the fermentables, and
needs about 2.5 times the yeast growth as a 12P wort (more sugars,
less dextrins in wine must) so we might reasonably extrapolate the
minimun 150ppm of FAN for wort to about 375ppm FAN minimum
for wine, and this matches the wine lit.   Wine only rarely has
than minimum amount of FAN in the must.

So what is happening here ?  The ~30ppm of N (in non-FAN
but yeast accessible forms, nuclueotides for exaple) ~2mmol
of N, can be used to synthesize about 210-225ppm of additional
FAN.  So the must has ~125ppm FAN PLUS enough N to synthesize
another ~220ppm of FAN for a total ~345ppm FAN and that
matches the minimum needss pretty closely.

Wine-must has a lot more N than listed above as protein.  I've
read that some of the protein degrade late in the wine
fermentation. Maybe it's grape proteases.  Yeast produce some
exracellular proteases too, and to consume some di- & tri- peptides,
even in beer.

Given all this, I have no idea why additions of ~1000ppm of DAP
(~210ppm of N) is ever needed in wine.  That's more than the total
N req I believe.  A supplemental 150ppm of DAP seems more
sensible in theory.   Also wine carries much higher levels of fusels than
beer, hidden behind much bigger flavor levels.  The amino imbalance
is less of an issue.

Also wine is fermented with S.cerevisiae, a sibling of ale yeast, also
S.bayanus, a half-brother of lager yeast - those I trust to act like
brewing yeasts,  Wine ferments also include a range of wild & furry
molds and even initially bacteria.   The impact on nitrogen use is as
clear as mud.

==
MattB writes more, on fusels & amino acids, ...

I know of know simple HB friendly means to assay FAN.  It's
probably sufficient to assume that any malt (other than home malted)
produces  ~20-25ppm of FAN per Plato, 240ppm to 300ppm in a
12P wort for example.   Raw grain produces some but a lot less.
Sugary adjuncts are effectively zero.  If you use good malt
for say 75% of the OG you have enough FAN.  Beyond that
it's dicey.

On adding FAN to wort.   I don't view this as "a lot of
caveats" but rather a different strategy.   Yeast catabolize excess
amino acids and produce fusels as a result.   Yeast also synthesize
missing amino acids and produce fusels as a result.  The task is
like Goldilock's bears, to avoid the extremes; neither too much
nor too little aminos during growth.  Matt astutely points out that
adding  FAN to  all-malt wort  at the beginning is "too much".
My point is that adding some (and maybe certain) aminos to wort
in mid-fermentation may help by preventing the "too little" case.

 >I'm not sure AA/fusel "pairs" is a correct way to describe
 >it,

This describes almost the entire issue.

< iso-butanol, valine >
< 2-methyl-butanol, isoleucine >
< 3-methyl-butanol, leucine >
< 2-phenyl-ethyl alc, phenylalanine > 

This leaves only n-propanol among the flavor active
fusels in beer, and it has a somewhat complicated
origin related to amino synthesis, which I can't
explain at the moment.

 -S





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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:46:57 -0500
From: Dan Jeska <dan at kzoolf.org>
Subject: Water Analysis, Part....Doh!

Thanks to Jeff and Calvin for bringing to my attention what should have 
been obvious to me before I submitted my post....I used softened water 
for the sample I sent in to Ward Labs. Sometimes a grasp of the obvious 
is just outside my reach.

Anyway, I have contacted the good folks at Ward Labs and asked them to 
send me another samlping bottle, we'll start the whole process over 
again in about a week.

Dan Jeska
Brewing in Prairieville, Michigan (85.5, 277.7 Rennerian)


 

 

 

 



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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 06:55:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: More water analysis

Ah, this is the week of water analysis!  First off, recap 
of Dan Jeska's water from day before yesterday, then on to 
Dave Clark's from yesterday.

(1) Dan Jeska's softened water

I blathered on about Dan Jeska's water, and buried in the 
middle I commented:  "This isn't coming out of a water 
softener, is it?? (Please say no, but it sure looks like 
it to me.)"

And indeed Dan *is* on a water softener, as Jeff Renner 
also correctly guessed.  Note to brewers:  Brewing with 
softened water can be problematic, as you might have 
guessed from my comments yesterday.  It is best avoided, 
and if you have a water softener at home, get your brewing 
water from a tap BEFORE the softener, not after it. 

(2a) Dave Clark's hard well water sample

Some selections from the reports:
                        Well           Spring      	
sodium                   124 <-- !         5
calcium                  114              45
magnesium                 17               7  
total hardness CaCO3     356             142
sulfate	SO4-S             12               5 
chloride                 196 <-- !         1
carbonate CO3             <1              <1
bicarbonate HCO3         272             130 
total alkalinity CaCO3   223             107

Dave, you're right.  Your well water looks like a train wreck,
specifically a salt spill after a train wreck.  :-)  OK, it's 
not terrible, but it's not that great for brewing.  It looks
almost like you're on top of a salt mine, wih all the sodium 
and chloride ions.  You could get the carbonate down with 
the boil+aerate/cool/rack (BACR) treatment, but the NaCl problem 
is intractable and I'd be looking at distilled/RO dilutions 
for most styles.  

As for the spring water, it's much, much better.  That's good
brewing water.  The carbonate can be removed (partly) with
the BACR treatment, to give you a pretty close water for 
Bohemian Pilsener or other soft-water beers.  For (English) 
pale ales, adding from 2 to 6 grams of gypsum for five gallons 
will get you in the ballpark, or even more for "Burtonised" 
water.  But for most typical mid-range brews, this water is fine.
I wouldn't even bother mixing in any of your well water.

Skip the well, use the spring!

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA




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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:43:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Glyn <graininfuser at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mail order & Compost follow up

I have enjoyed ordering over the years from:
http://www.grapeandgranary.com/
also I have used:
" THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 
Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
Visit http://www.northernbrewer.com  to show your
appreciation! Or call them at 1-800-681-2739
Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's
site!"

Most of the time now I try to visit All Seasons in
Nashville TN when ever I am up that way.

The only time I get an odor from my compost is when I
am out of town and unable to turn it, and winter. The
odor is only noticeable when you do finally turn it.
The compost in the end is GREAT! I encourage all to
give it a go if you grow anything. 

Glyn
So. Middle TN



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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:00:03 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: What is acceptable beer?

> Bob Tower writes "My question for Matt or anyone else knowledgeable in
> such matters is how does a brewer determine the level of amino acids in
> a given wort?  What are acceptable levels?"

I think the most accurate answer got to be that if you beer is 
tasty - it is acceptable in that case ;-)

Seriously, this is the ultimate measure for a brewer isn't it? :)
Trying to definining the measure is IMO the first step of anything.

I think there are many good points to try to understand that yeast,
and what it "needs", but obviously we are not yeast farmers, we are
brewers and exploit our yeasts to achieve the desired flavours
without the slightest respect of cellular anxiousness :)

The fact that I may learn what the yeast "wants" doesn't mean I 
will supply it, unless it suits my selfish goals. How evil, but 
we are bigger!

I think that while we are discussing all these very interesting things,
there are different measures of "success". The conditions that imply 
"success" for the yeast farmer, may not coincide with the ultimately
balanced beer flavour. Set aside the technical aspects, there are alot
of personal preferences involved too.

The nitrogen regulations in yeast seems to be fairly complex, and
while there is the complication that aminos are utilised in a kind of
order - it's not quite that simple either in the sense that they are not 
utilized in a *strict* order, or even strict groupwise order, just almost. 
There seems to be many regulatory and sensory 
systems that regulated the amino utilisation.
I don't quite get it yet, but I'm working on understanding it. I've read
several papers on the topic and the nitrogen regulations, as well as
a few tests where it's clear that there exists feebacks between the 
difference regulatory systems in the yeast. For example, the nitrogen
regulations are tweaked also in response to the sugar source available.
I recall one paper which indicated that "what is the preferred nitrogen 
source", may depend on the carbon source, making it all even more
interesting, unpredictable and impressive for something so small :)

 /Fredrik



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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:10:36 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: another water report


Dave Clark presented an interesting comparison of waters available to him.  
He mentioned that both waters taste fine.  The test results are below:

Well water

ph			7.6
sodium			124
potassium			4
calcium			114
magnesium			17
total hardness CaCO3		356
nitrate	NO3-N		4.6
sulfate	SO4-S		12
chloride			196
carbonate CO3		less than 1
bicarbonate HCO3		272
total alkalinity CaCO3		223
iron			0.02
total dissolved solids		720

and now the spring water:

ph			7.8
sodium			5
potassium			less than 1
calcium			45
magnesium			7
total hardness CaCO3		142
nitrate	NO3-N		0.7
sulfate	SO4-S		5
chloride			1
carbonate CO3		less than 1
bicarbonate HCO3		130
total alkalinity CaCO3		107
iron			0.02
total dissolved solids		174

The well water is pretty darn hard stuff.  I'm surprised that Dave says it 
tastes 'just fine'.  It should have a noticable taste.  The spring water 
isn't too bad, but Dave erred when he mentioned it was 'fairly soft'.  
Compared to the well water, the spring water is soft.  But in the real 
world, even the spring water is moderately hard.

The high ionic content of the well water makes it much less suitable than 
the spring water for brewing.  The high sodium and chloride contents of the 
well water will make it tougher to create a softer flavor profile.  I would 
avoid using this water if the spring water was available.

The spring water's moderate hardness and alkalinity add up to a residual 
alkalinity of about 71.  This isn't too bad for brewing amber and darker 
beers.  Its not ideally suited for a pilsner though.  pH adjustment measures 
would be needed to brew a pale beer with the spring water.   As usual, all 
sparge water should be pH adjusted down to about 5.7 to avoid tannin 
extraction.

The big advantage the spring water has is that the 'flavor' ion contents are 
fairly low.  That means that Dave wouldn't have to worry about excessive 
concentrations of those ions like sodium, chloride, and sulfate.  He can 
always add these ions as needed for the style.

Dave won't have to worry about mixing.  He should only use the spring water 
and add minerals to achieve the desired water style.  But, distilled water 
will be needed to make a good pils.  I suggest that a 1:1 mix of distilled 
and spring water should be appropriate for a pils.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:34:39 +1100
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
Subject: Warm Lagering? [Sec: Unclassified]

Hi all,
I understand the importance of low pitching and fermentation temps for
lagers...so much so, that I lashed out and bought a temp controller for a
surplus fridge.  

I have a cellar that stays around 18C / 64F for most of the year.  If I cold
ferment my lagers, give them a diacetyl rest and then keg  the beer under a
CO2 blanket, am I undoing all the good work by leaving the kegged lager in
the relatively warm cellar?  Will the lager yeast residual in the keg throw
unpleasant notes into the finished beer whilst it sits in the cellar???

My brew fridge is unfortunately somewhat small in size...I can either
ferment or serve or condition kegs, but not more than one task at a time.
So, unless I want to abstain from drinking for a few months, lagering in the
fridge is not an option...

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
 
Rowan Williams 
Canberra, Australia

[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)





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