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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: forces beyond our control (ferguson ct 71078)
  Re: Question about peppermint  (Jonathan Corbet)
  Re: Sterilizing bottles in the oven. (bryan)
  dishwasher for bottles, misc. (Paul L. Kelly)
  kegging (florianb)
  Re: fruit flies (bowler)
  new subject (GEORGE RAISER)
  big bottles (JEEPSRUS)
  Re: Kegging & Bottling (Jay Hersh)
  Kegging Answers (Jim Griggers)
  quick flame (mike_schrempp)
  Keg Questions (314) 872-3168" <schmidt at aec830.mdcbbs.com>


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Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 09:32:52 EDT
From: ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com (ferguson ct 71078)
Subject: Re: forces beyond our control


>So I would like to know: Does the direction the earth spins after too
>much homebrew have anything to do with which is the drinking hand?

>Florian, the dizzy.

No, it depends on whether the beer was brewed in the northern or
southern hemisphere.  Overconsumption of northern hemisphere brews
like Bass Ale cause the earth to spin clockwise whereas
overconsumption of a Foster's lager will cause the earth to spin
counter-clockwise.  QED.

Chuck

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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 08:45:26 -0600
From: corbet at stout.atd.ucar.EDU (Jonathan Corbet)
Subject: Re: Question about peppermint 


> From: russellp at cae.wisc.edu
>
> We finally got a brew kit and a friend of mine wants to try a brew using
> leaves from his peppermint plant.

> 1) Is it even worth trying?

We tried it once -- "triple mint beer" brewed from mint found in the backyard
while waiting for the wort to boil.  The result?  Well, we drank all the beer
(of course!), but this was probably four years ago, and we've not been
inspired to make another one.  I would classify it as an "interesting
experiment."

> 2) How much should we use?

We used, oh, "about that much."  Don't worry, but don't add huge amounts.

> 3) When should we add it?

If you're adding plants, I think you want it in the boil.  Extract could
probably go in later, though there probably still is no harm in boiling it.

Jonathan Corbet
National Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Technology Division
corbet at stout.atd.ucar.edu

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Date: 20 Sep 90 09:22:42 PDT (Thu)
From: bryan at tekgen.bv.tek.com
Subject: Re: Sterilizing bottles in the oven.

I've always sterilized my bottles in the oven. After rinsing them out, I put
a aluminum foil cap on them. Bake at 350 for however long it takes you to be
comfortable, I usually bake for 3 to 4 hours. It then takes a while to cool
down.

I usually do this days in advance, so on the day I bottle they are ready.

On the subject of porter, I would like to make a porter like Sierra Nevada,
i.e., rich but mild on the bittering. Does anyone have any recipies for
such a beast? I would appreciate it I could get one.

			Fall is coming, time to start brewing,

					Bryan

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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 14:06:38 EST
From: pkel at psych.purdue.edu (Paul L. Kelly)
Subject: dishwasher for bottles, misc.


While washing some bottles for my most recent stout (anticipated to be a very
short-lived batch :), I began to wonder how well my dishwasher performs at the
task of getting the insides of the bottles clean.  After all, the hole of a 12
ounce bottle is rather small, and is somewhat blocked by the rack.  So, being
a rather empirical sort, I conducted an easy test.  I put ketchup in one of the
bottles (about 1cm in the bottom), and proceeded to run the load.  Much to my
delight, the bottle came out sparkling.  I plan to test more bottles in differ-
ent locations in the dishwasher this way, just to be certain, but I expect sim-
ilar results.  I would suggest a test of this sort for other dishwasher users,
as some models may not perform adequately.

Also with regard to using dishwashers for bottle sanitization, it is worth 
noting that many liquid dishwasher detergents contain chlorine bleach.  I was
surprized and pleased by this fact, as it now appears that washing the bottles
in the machine should provide all the sanitation I need.

The recent flurry of wort chilling schemes prompts me to share my own method.
I use my bathtub, with a large number of "blue ice" freezer packs thrown in.
The water in the tub chills down to a numbing temperature, and cooling the
wort takes about 1 hour.  I move the pot around a bit, and agitate the wort
every few minutes.  This is easy, almost quick, and saves me the trouble and
expense of building/buying a genuine immersion chiller (I may go ahead and do
it at some point anyway, as lugging a large pot of almost-boiling liquid to 
the bathroom is not fun).  I have toyed with the idea of just popping the blue
ice into the wort itself, but I'm chicken -- I don't think I could adequately
sanitize them.

re: fruit flies.  Yep, it's that time of year, and I do believe fruit flies
love the smell of fermenting beer just as much as I do.  In fact, the stout
I am making at this point has about 20-30 of the little rascals in the airlock
right now.  I don't worry about it, since they don't seem to swim very well,
and probably haven't made it into the brew.  Note that the typical fruit fly
trap is made with a plastic cup covered with plastic wrap, which has a small
hole poked in the top.  Bait the trap with fruit (bananas work well), and you
will discover the flies get in, can't get out, and soon disappear from your
home.

And finally, a suggestion for keeping beer in the dark.  I like to just leave
my carboys in the kitchen, as the prospect of dropping five gallons of pre-
cious beer-to-be on the way to a dark place is frightening.  A simple way to
keep the beer in the dark is to take a paper grocery sack, cut a slit in it
for the airlock, and cover the carboy with the bag.  This way, the beer stays
out in the open where I can admire the zealous frenzy of fermentation, but it
stays protected from the light.

pkel at brazil.psych.purdue.edu    |      I think <----+ |"Always store beer in
Paul L. Kelly                   |         |         | |a dark place."  
Dept. Psych. Sci., Purdue Univ. |        \|/        | | --Lazarus Long
    "Humpty Dumpty was pushed!" | Therefore, I am ->+ |Disclaimer: Phphththbbbt

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Date: 20 Sep 90 12:42:03 PDT (Thu)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: kegging

Chris Shenton asks several questions about kegging:

>Has anyone used an old fire extinguisher as a CO2 cylinder? One homebrew
>shop I visited suggested it, and the last (commercial) keg I rented used
>one. Do I have to buy a new valve, from Foxx or elsewhere?

As long as the fire extinguisher bottle is in good condition, as long
as the bottle can be fitted with the proper valve, relief valve, and 
regulator, then it should be fine.  Of course, this assumes that the
bottle had CO2 in it throughout its history!  I'd go with a new bottle,
if you aren't exactly sure of its past.

>For each set of 4 kegs above, 3 are Firestone, and 1 is Spartan. Are parts,
>such as lids, interchangeable? Are lids interchangeable between Pin and
>Ball styles?

In general, the lids are *not* interchangeable, even though some of them
look the same.  I had a helluva time with this trying to use the
Spartan kegs.  I mentioned here before,
I finally just bought some used Cornelius kegs from Pepsi.    The pin
and ball styles refer to the fittings only, as far as I know.

>In the Foxx catalog, prices for Firestone replacement parts (lids, O-rings,
>liquid tubes, etc) are twice or more the price of Cornelius parts. Are
>these interchangeable? (Is Cornelius the same as Spartan?)

The price has to do with demand.  Both Foxx and Pepsi told me that the
Firestone kegs could go the way of the dinosaur.  In general, the parts
are not interchangeable.  It seems to me that there are as many types of
keg parts as there are subnuclear particles.

>I've got 3 Firestone lids with no pressure relief valve; should I avoid
>them?

If you can't locate lids with pressure relief valves, you should take
the kegs to the dump with you on your next yard cleaning day.  It's not
worth the risk just to drink beer from a hoze.

Again, may I say that I tried to go the cheapo route in the beginning. I
got so frustrated trying to sort out the various parts and get the old
kegs to seal, that I finally gave up.  I came to an agreement with the
local Pepsi dist. to purchase the used kegs at the same price as they
pay for them new (Cornelius type).  The cost is about 1/3 of the price
of new kegs and there is no hassle whatsoever with functionality or
commonality.  I shouldn't say how much I pay for them, but it's less
than the cost of two batches of brew.

Florian


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 16:25:17 EDT
From: bowler%ATHENA.MIT.EDU at hplb.hpl.hp.com
Subject: Re: fruit flies


The fruit flies that were found in the airlock were very likely
Drosophila.  These little beasts are a quite common research organism.
They are called fruit flies, but that is somewhat of a misnomer.  They
actually eat yeast and are generally attracted to rotting fruit because
of the yeast present.  Beer and wine does quite a good job of
attaracting these beasts.  The flies just wanted to get in to your beer
for a taste of the yeast.  They really don't care about the beer.  It
does seem that you have attracted a large number of these guys.  I
wonder if there was a nearby piece of rotting fruit where there could
have been flies breeding.

The biggest worry about these flies is that they wild have lots of wild
yeast on their feet that could contaminate your beer.  But those also
wouldn't pass through your airlock.

Albert Smith

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Date:         Thu, 20 Sep 90 17:05:24 EDT
From: GEORGE RAISER <ST402234 at brownvm.brown.edu>
Subject:      new subject

Could you please send me information on this new list to Bruno?

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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 14:49:24 PDT
From: robertn at fm1.intel.com (JEEPSRUS)
Subject: big bottles


How big of bottles can be used for beer? I have found a "COOK's"
champaign bottle that is 1.5litre. These would be great bottles
if you wanted to pour more than one beer... the beer would most 
likely have to be decanted to a pitcher to keep sediment from 
kicking up to bad.

But, how far is too far with a glass bottle? It holds up to the
champaign, so it seems it'd hold beer ok.

With the larger bottles, how much headspace should be left?

Whowee, these bottles would make bottling quik and simple!

Thanx in advance,

Robert N.
robertn at fm1.intel.com


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Date: 20 Sep 90 18:29:54 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Kegging & Bottling


Well I actually do both. When I make a 5 gal. batch and put it into my 3 gal. 
keg I have to do something with the leftover beer (typically < 2 gallons since I
really only have a 19L carbouy and there is always sediment). So I bottle it 
which leaves a few around for a later date or a competition.

I have found kegs incredibly easy to clean and take care of. Did John Polstra 
say he uses detergent or soap on his kegs to clean them. I would never do that. 
I don't let anything like dish soap touch any of my brewing equipment. I hate 
bleach so I use B-Brite which has the nice property of rinsing clean, as well as
being a good sterilant and cleaner.



WARNING: The Following can Be Interpreted by Some as a FLAME, FLAME Sensistive
Individuals Please disregard the next Paragraph

With regard to my comment regarding sporting events. Race cars and speed boats 
were just examples. The point was that a few dozen less commercials per game, 
race, whatever multiplied by all the events would take a bit off the price of a 
swill beer. What do they get for those BUD BOWL inanities. It costs millions to 
make them (they're computer generated, I work on that kind of stuff so I know 
how much it costs), and millions to show them. Even regular season commercials 
are in the hundreds of thousands, and they show a lot of them. So instead of 
taking offense at me (especially since I did indicate that viewpoints vary) you 
should be annoyed at the percentage (assuming the figure I had quoted to me is 
accurate) of the price of these beers that goes into assaulting you with mind 
numbing shots of ugly dogs and brainless bimbos. Personally I'd gladly exchange 
the advertising tab I pay for a tax tab that would buy back our goverments debt 
from the Japanese (Now someone will bash me for flaming the Japanese!)
 - Nuff Said!

 - Jay H

(I'd rather drink Sapporo tha Bud)

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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 21:50:35 EDT
From: Jim Griggers <brew at ncrmud>
Subject: Kegging Answers


>>Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes:

>>I've got 3 Firestone lids with no pressure relief valve; should I avoid
>>them?

Chris asked about soda containers, and I just happened to have a
Spartanburg Steel Products Inc. "Container Products Catalog", so
here is what it says ...     (sorry for the length)
[start of text]

Spartanburg Steel Products Inc.

Customer Service Center: P.O. Box 6428, New Cut Road
Spartanburg, South Carolina 29304,  800 845-8282

Container Advisory Bulletin

        "We are concerned that repeated dropping and abusive handling of
these containers may result in some of them being continued in service
beyond their service life.
	You should, therefore, remove from service any containers which
show substantial damage, excessive wear, or significant metal removal.
Any containers found to be damaged by use, or which show extensive wear,
would be reconditioned at your expense.  Containers which have
manufacturing problems would be repaired at our expense, including
transportation both ways.
	Occupational Safety and Health Act regulations require
continuing inspection to ensure a safe work site.  It is hoped that a
continuing regular inspection procedure will be established to ensure
the safe working condition of containers in use.  If you have any
questions, please telephone our Customer Service Center at 800-845-8282.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Dents

	All cans should be visually inspected (internally and
externally) for major dents or deviations from the original dimensions
of the container.  Some critical dents are characterized by a sharp,
distinct angle in the metal at the bottom of the dent.  This type dent
may be found at any point on the interior or exterior of the container.
Those dents occurring on the bottom dome can be detected only by visual
inspection of the interior of the container because the rubber skirt
covers the outside of the metal.  Other dents may appear smooth at the
bottom of the contour, but possess a severe change in angle or buckle,
at some point(s) along the outside of the dent.  Containers having top
and/or bottom skirts that are damaged, such as pushed in on one side, to
the extent that the skirt is "out of round" or is no longer
perpendicular to the body, should be classified as having major dents.
Any container that demonstrates metal deformation that may compromise
the structural integrity of the container should be removed from
service.

Recommended Action:  Remove from Service

NOTE: Most containers having dents can be repaired by Spartanburg Steel
Products at published container repair prices.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Dent in Handhole Opening

	Any dent, nick, notch or deformation of the area that makes
contact with closure gasket that is of sufficient depth to prevent
adequate sealing or pressurization of the container.

Recommended Action: Remove from Service

NOTE:[same as above]

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Pressure Relief Valves

	1. Description of Condition: Old Style Pressure Relief Valve

	  [Here there is a picture of the old style valve.  It is a
           tall hex shaped valve with a wire loop in the top and a
           relief hole on the side]

           Usually installed in top dome of container.  Ability to
           properly relieve pressure may become suspect with age and
	   service.

Recommended Action: Remove container with old style pressure relief
		    valve from service.

NOTE: For containers with old style pressure relief valve, install new
closure with NSDA VS01 equipped pressure relief valve and return
container to full service.

	2. Description of Condition: Non-NSDA Pressure Relief Valve

	  [Here there is a picture of the Non-NSDA valve.  It is a
	   short hex shaped valve with a flat metal lever on top.]

	   This valve does not meet NSDA VS01; however, with routine
	   testing, cleaning, and normal maintenance, will relieve
	   pressure from container as designed.

Recommended Action: Continue to use Non-NSDA pressure relief valve with
		    proper testing, cleaning and maintenance.

	3. Description of Condition: NSDA Pressure Relief Valve

	  [Here there is a picture of a short round valve with
	   a flat metal lever on top]

	   Meets requirements of NSDA VS01.  Should be tested, cleaned
	   and maintained on a routine basis.

Recommended Action: Continue to use NSDA pressure relief valve with
		    proper testing, cleaning and maintenance.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Bulging

	This condition is usually caused by overpressurization and/or
contents freezing in the can.  The most distinguishing characteristics
of this condition are changes in shape on the top skirt.  These changes
may consist of any or all of the following: (1) A crowned affect or
raising of the metal around the handhole opening, (2) loss of radius
sharpness of metal around handhole opening, (3) bulging lid, and/or (4)
both coupling plugs tilted outward.

Recommended Action: Remove from Service

NOTE: Container cannot be repaired and should be scrapped.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Container with Pressure Relief Valve in Dome*
*these containers have not been manufactured since 1966

	All Firestone containers with three (3) fittings (outlet, inlet
	and pressure relief valve) in top dome.  Usually has strap top
	dome.  Includes 2 1/2 to 10 gallon capacity and 8 1/2" to
	12 1/4" diameter containers.

Recommended Action: Remove from Service

NOTE: These containers may be reconditioned for full service by
replacing the outdated closures with a metal closure having a pressure
relief valve meeting NSDA VS01.  These closures may be obtained from
Spartanburg Steel Products.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Commander Container* [one type pictured]
*this container has not been manufactured since 1966

	Strap handle or modified stacking handle top container with
round closure.  Closure has threaded bolt in center with wing nut.  Some
have 3 fittings on top dome (one is pressure relief valve).

Recommended Action: Remove from Service

NOTE: This container is susceptible to in-service damage and has
difficulty in meeting today's sanitary standards.  Spartanburg Steel
Products Inc. can replace the top dome in order to bring the container
to current safety standards.

DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION: Outdated Closures
	(1) All stainless steel closures without pressure relief
	    devices.
	(2) All plastic closures.

Recommended Action: Remove from Service.

NOTE: Exchange closures for new metal closures that have pressure relief
valve meeting NSDA VS01.  These closures may be obtained from
Spartanburg Steel Products. "

[end of text]

Again, sorry for the length.  Just yell at me through e-mail if I should
not send such lengthy material.

I just ordered two kegs from ART'S in Utah.  They have not arrived yet,
so I don't know of their condition.  I looked all around the Columbia, SC
area for used kegs, but had no luck whatsoever.  I did call the distributor
for Spartanburg Steel, and brand new kegs are $69.50.  They are available
with black, green, red, yellow, or blue rubber skirts, all the same price.


     Jim Griggers                 * * * * *
     brew at ncrmud.Columbia.NCR.COM  *     *
     408 Timber Ridge Dr.           *   *
     West Columbia, SC             * * *
     29169                        *   * 


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Date:        20 Sep 90 12:10 -0800
From: mike_schrempp%29 at hp4200.desk.hp.com
Subject:     quick flame

Here's a quick flame to infrequent readers.

If you are catching up on your reading of the HBD, please take the time to
catch up completely before tossing in your 2 cents worth. Here's the scenario
that bugs me:

Day 1 - New topic shows up
Day 2-4 - Good responses
Day 5-10 - All quiet
Day 11-? - Someone reads the Day 1 HBD and writes essentially the same things as
           we've all read on days 2-4, but they don't know it because they have
           not read the HBD from days 2-4.

Example: The old trub on which way the sink spins that came up and almost
         went away, but is now back.

Of course, if there's something new to add this doesn't apply, but most often
I'm reading reruns.

Am I alone on this?  Maybe a discussion on "HBD etiquette" would be good.
Or should I just shut up?

Mike Schrempp


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Date: Thu, 20 Sep 90 22:27:34 PDT
From: "Mike Schmidt (314) 872-3168" <schmidt at aec830.mdcbbs.com>
Subject: Keg Questions

Regarding the home brew kegging system sold by Foxx as a complete kit.  I am
slightly concerned by Foxx's photo of the kit in their 90-91 catalog as it
shows a CO2 pressure regulator with only *one* pressure gauge (dispensing
pressure I believe).  A question from a neophyte keg user is; how important is
it to know both the cylinder pressure and the dispensing pressure?

Obviously, cylinder pressure loss signifies that refill time is approaching but
can one roughly approximate refill time by sound?  That is; my dad always knew
when to refill the propane tank on our camper based on strategic knuckle
'pinging'.  Or; does one have to be a submarine sonar operator to use the
refill-by-pinging method?

I wish to purchase my first kegging system and the kit Foxx offers looks quite
appealing for $150.00.  Also, their close proximity to St. Louis should keep
freight to a minimum.

One last keg question.  How much value is added by "William's unique lid sealing
O ring", which is advertised to seal tightly at even the lowest dispensing
pressure?

Any comments on single gauge regulators and/or William's unique O ring would be
much appreciated.  Thanks...   Mike Schmidt  mdcbbs!aec830.mdcbbs.com!schmidt
________________________________________________________________________________



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #501, 09/21/90
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