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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  chicha ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  re: Hot side aeration ("steve.alexander")
  Competition announcement - Walk the Line for Barleywine and Strong (Nelson)
  RE:  SG and CO2 ("JONES,AARON K")
  boiling water infusions vs applying direct heat ("Janie Curry")
  How to calculate no sparge recipes? ("Janie Curry")


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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:32:53 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: chicha

SWMBO and I have been thinking about a trip to Peru, Bolivia, or Chile 
in 2007.  Of course, we'd like to sample some of the local beverages. 
Anyone have experience with Chicha in those parts? Any 
advice/suggestions?

Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Apparent Rennerian: [394, 79.9]



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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 03:00:05 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Hot side aeration

Jason and others mention HSA,

>I was wondering if HSA is a problem when mashing and sparging with water
>heated only to around 150 F.  I know that when you boil water you
>effectively deoxygenate it.  When I fill my pot with cold water from the
>sink there is plenty of splashing going on, and then I heat that water
>to less than boiling.  Is this water oxygenated?  It seems like brewers
>only worry about splashing hot wort, isn't adding oxygenated water to
>the grain doing the same thing? Does anyone boil water for mashing and
>then let it cool to the right temp?  

HSA is a term that includes oxygen uptake in the mash & boil both.  This
is in contract to cool-side aeration after the chill.   Some studies in the
late 1968 and up to recent years attempt to trace out the fate of oxygen
in wort & beer and make decisions about there relative "badness" based on
their chemical fates.  Anyway the early papers (and many since) indicate
that HSA oxygen has negative impact on flavor and flavor stability.

Chas Bamforth published a terrific paper in JIB about 5 years ago
calculating the enzymatic and catalytic pathways for various oxygen
species in the mash, then correlated his estimate with published studies
of the total O2 uptake in the mash.

Despite the fact the oxygen is not very soluble at mash temps and above -
many times the saturation level of oxygen is chemically compounded with
the mash during the mash.  Nearly all of this oxygen transpires through
the air-mash boundary.   Bamforth calculates that the catalytic processes
in the mash are sufficient to use up saturation levels of oxygen in a
matter of seconds !!  So the mash is almost devoid of oxygen and
Henry's Law of partial pressures forces atmospheric O2 into the mash.

Bamforth doesn't directly address the issue of O2 uptake in the boil,
but if we assume the enzymatic mechanisms are lost and the metal ion
catalytic mechanisms (which are the stronger ones) are enhanced by
temperture, then the boil is probably at least as bad in terms of
oxidized products as the mash.

All this oxygen ends up compounded with wort constituents.   Oxidized
oils are probably primarily produced in the mash by the action various
lipo-oxygenase enzymes.  These damaged oils break down producing the
trans-2-nonenal cardboard aroma and other aldehydic aromas.
Quantitatively phenolic compounds are the greatest destination for this
oxygen in wort.  Simeple phenolic compounds often have pleasant fresh
flavors - or at least innocuous ones.  Oxidized phenolics are more
bitter and will polymerize and eventually produce astringency.  They
also are removed to some extent in the break material and in the
"dregs" left behind in the lagering process.   Fining materials like
PVPP will remove oxidized phenolics too.  Many other materials in
wort are oxidized in the mash & boil too.

After the chill, a fermentation is created and the yeast during their
anaerobic ferment have a dilemma - they are required to chemically
reduce the material in their environment to achieve a redox balance.
The major destination of all this reduction is in the creation of
ethanol from acetaldehyde, but also the conversion of other aldehydes
into alcohols and some other very flavor positive effects.  Yeast
also leave a little (2-15ppm) of sulfite behind in the beer and
sulfite is an antioxidant.  My hunch is that lager yeasts are
the better sulfite producers, and most ale yeasts - not so much.

More recently Morton Meilgard(sp?) has noted that some of the  
extreme oxygen elimination methods developed for commercial brewing
have not proven to create a measurable improvement in flavor IN
COMMERCIAL BREWING.

Note that the amount of O2 exposure is largely related to the surface
area:volume ratio of the mash tun & copper.  Also the amount of
"splashing" and transfer activity must impact this significantly.
Small HB tuns will therefore have a lot more potential for HSA,
than deeper commercial tuns.  Oxidation is clearly more problematic
the smaller (shallower actually) the mash.


=========

So here are the practical points - 

Preboiling your mash water will NOT have a significant advantage. 
Most of the HSA oxygen is introduces through the surface (which
increases with stirrig & splashing).

I've idly suggested in the past that we could mash (&boil) under an
inert gas layer - and this really is possible.   I haven't tried it.

We could introduce an oxygen impermeable barrier to reduce the surface
area of the mash & boil.  Aluminum foil or a food grade plastic layer.
80% coverage would bring HB mash tuns into the same surface:vol
ratios as commerial tuns.  OTOH stirring & transfer are still
problematic.

Add sodium or potassium metabisulfite as anti-oxidants to the mash.
This method has been used in many tests and has been recommended by
some of the German brewing researchers.   I add 1/2 crushed campden
tab per gallon of finished beer to the mash.  I've done this with
some regularity in recent years and the resulting beer is a little
fresher, and metabisulphite has a notable impact in reducing the
color of light colored beers (another impact of oxidation).

I also think M.Meilgard has a point.  Well made fresh HB seldom
has an oxidation flavor problem when young, probably due to the
terrific impact of the yeast.  Bottle conditioned HB also seems to
have terrific shelf life if not mishandled.   OTOH kegged or force
carbonated HB sometimes doesn't last so long.  Certain beers
have notable aging problems - some of the dark malts in a munich
of n-bock seem to *sometimes* go south in a hurry.   

Do try an HSA reduction method and evaluate it for yourself.  I
think the metabisulfite addition makes a clear enough difference,
but it takes a little judgement to decide when it is called for.

 -S





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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 05:57:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Nelson at BuildABeer.org
Subject: Competition announcement - Walk the Line for Barleywine and Strong 

We're very excited to announce the 5th annual Walk The Line on Barleywine
and Strong Ale Stumble homebrew competition and barleywine festival in
Dunedin, Florida.
Details on both below.  We need judges (and entries, of course!).  Here's
the quick overview:

Homebrew Competition
Judging dates: December 1-2, 2006 at the Dunedin Brewery
Judge director: KK 727-467-4677(w)  813-205-0156 (h)
kk at dunedinbrewersguild.com
Entry fee: $6 (checks made out to Dunedin Brewers Guild)
Entry deadline: November 29, 2006
Entry requires 3 bottles of 7-22oz bottles
BJCP judging guidelines will be followed, and entries can be made in the
following styles:
9E (Strong Scotch Ale)
13F (Russian Imperial Stout)
14C (Imperial IPA)
18A - 18E (Belgian Strong Ales: Blond, Dubbel, Tripel, Golden Strong, Dark
Strong)
19A - 19C (Old Ale, English Barleywine, American Barleywine)

Barleywine Festival
Dates: December 1-3

******************  Below are all of the details

Homebrewers, Judges and Lovers of Barleywine.....


                       December 1st-3rd, 2006
      "Walk The Line on Barleywine and Strong Ale Stumble"
     Homebrew Competition (An AHA Barley Wine & Strong Ale Competition)
                                                and
        "Walk The Line" Barleywine Festival
         Host: Dunedin Brewers Guild and Dunedin Brewery

Here's a sampling of the stash... Some we have kegs or cases, some we only
have a 6 pack left
Stone Brewing                   Stone Old Guardian 2002
Fish Brewing                    Leviathan 2002
Bridgeport Brewing              Old Knucklehead #10/11 '02&03
Broadway Brewing                Flying Dog      Horn Dog
Broadway Brewing                Roundhouse 1999
Hair of the Dog                 Doggie Claws 2002
Left Hand Brewing               Widdershin       2003
Odells' Brewing         Curmudgeon's Nip 2003
Sierra Nevada                   Bigfoot 2001
Sierra Nevada                   Bigfoot 2002
Sierra Nevada                   Bigfoot 2003
Sierra Nevada                   Bigfoot 2004
Rogue                           Old Crustacean 1995
McGuire's Brewpub               Gentleman on the Floor 2001(cask)
McGuire's Brewpub               Gentleman on the Floor 2002
McGuire's Brewpub               Gentleman on the Floor 2003
Bluegrass Brewing               Bearded Pat's 2003
Heavyweight Brewing             Old Salty  2000-2002
Victory Brewing         Old Horizontal 1998-2002
Lakefront Brewing               Beerline 2000 & 2001
Avery Brewing                   Hog Heaven 2002 & 2003
Brooklyn Brewing                Monster 2001
Kalamazoo/Bell's                Third Coast Expedition 20023
Sonora Brewing                  Old Saguaro 2003
Weyerbacher                     Blithering Idiot 1999-2003
Santa Fe Brewing                Chicken Killer
Pot Luck table                  Left over singles from the 2001 World
Largest Festival('97-01)

Homebrew Competition
Judging dates: December 1-2, 2006 at the Dunedin Brewery
Entry fee: $6 (checks made out to Dunedin Brewers Guild)
Entry deadline: November 29, 2006
Entry requires 3 bottles of 7-22oz bottles
BJCP judging guidelines will be followed, and entries can be made in the
following styles:
9E (Strong Scotch Ale)
13F (Russian Imperial Stout)
14C (Imperial IPA)
18A - 18E (Belgian Strong Ales: Blond, Dubbel, Tripel, Golden Strong, Dark
Strong)
19A - 19C (Old Ale, English Barleywine, American Barleywine)
Go to www.dunedinbrewersguild.com for rules, on-line entry, ship to and
local pickup locations

Prizes for the winner of the homebrew competition are a mixed case of this
vintage collection, as well as permanent title to the previous rotating
trophy "Mayan Headhurtz".  Category 1st place winners each get a six pack.
All 2nd and 3rd place winner PRESENT get their pick of any one 750ml or two
12oz from a mix of these 30+ aged barleywines. Those not present, get some
cool barleywine paraphernalia (shirts glasses) shipped to them. All winners
get AHA medals.
BJCP and "barleywine-experienced" Judges requested to "come' on over"!
Bring your SO over to steward and DD.
Please send email that you can judge or steward to Registrar, Nelson Crowle
at Nelson at DunedinBrewersGuild.com
History of the Homebrew Competition:
BEST OF SHOW
2001 Ed Meason "Strong Scotsman #81" - Central Florida Homebrewers (Strong
Scotch Ale)
2002 Virgil Wasko "IPS 2001" - Dunedin Brewers Guild    (Russian Imperial
Stout)
2003 Antoinette Hodges  - Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity (Russian
Imperial Stout)
2004 Virgil Wasko - Dunedin Brewers Guild (Strong Scotch Ale)

Schedule of all events:
SUNDAY NOVEMBER 26th
Gourmet Cheeses/Meats & vintage Barleywine      3-7pm
& Strong Ale pairings ($15)


FRIDAY DECEMBER 1st
First Round:                                                    6:30 pm
   Judges, Stewards & Entrants Reception                9:00 pm
        (vintage Strong Ale Tasting on the patio)
   Downtown Dunedin Pub Crawl of two bars               11:00 pm

SATURDAY DECEMBER 2nd
 Second Round/ Best of Show:                            9 -11:30am
 Homebrew  Awards                                       12 noon
 Belgian memorial toast to "Father Joe" Rayho           12:30 pm
 Barleywine Festival (*see below)                       1-5pm
 After party at Brewery & crawl of 2 other bars         8-12mn

SUNDAY DECEMBER 3rd
 Barleywine breakfast at the Brewery ($7)               9 am- 11am
        (5 Barleywines with an UK breakfast)

*Festival Ticket prices (limited to 40 attendees):
$15  "The Primer" 2-5 year old vintages (Ten 3 ounce samples)
$20  "Vertical Tasting Flight" 3-4 years of 3 brands (2-3 ounce samples)
$25  "Rare and Old" (Ten 2-3 ounce samples)
$1        "The Blow Out" 4-5pm Additional sample tickets after all flights
done - 2 ounces
$5.    Non-drinkers (food, soft drinks)
*$55.*   "Golden Ticket" includes all three flights plus 10 blowout tics
The Primer, Vertical and Rare/Old flight will be occurring at the same time
and will be repeated several times, so if desired, attendees can taste all
samples available that day.

Note: as with any vintage product, a few barleywines will have gone south or
be way past it's prime....
As determined by the pourer and organizer, these will not count towards your
paid samples.
Hotels within walking distance Dunedin, FL 34698
Amberlee Motel, 1035 Broadway St, (727-733-3228)  $
Holiday Inn Express 975 Broadway (727-450-1200)   $$
Best Western Inn Yacht Harbor, 150 Marina Plz, (727-733-4121)
(poolside/bayside) $$
Holiday House 1220 Main St, (727) 733-5496 (furthest at 0.5m) $
For more info.....
Contact: KK 727-467-4677(w)  813-205-0156 (h) kk at dunedinbrewersguild.com

Nelson Crowle
Nelson at BuildABeer.org
Nelson at DunedinBrewersGuild.com

 ..click..





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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:43:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "JONES,AARON K" <kjones1 at ufl.edu>
Subject: RE:  SG and CO2

Disclaimer:  All or part of the following comments by myself could 
be b/s and totally wrong.  Read at your own risk

AJ writes:

- --------<snip>------------------
How are you able to do this?  If you just drop a hydrometer into 
the
fermenter or bottling bucket in addition to the frightening risk 
of
infection the reading would likely be off because of gas bubbles
adhering to the side of the hydrometer in addition to the 
dissolved CO2
having an effect on the reading.
- ---------<sinp>------------------

Actually, risk of infection is one of the reasons *why* I wanted 
to try this.  And are we *really* worried about infection at this 
point, assuming a clean and sanitized hydrometer (30 minute soak 
in Iodophor)?  I would much rather dunk my sanitized hydrometer 
into the finished beer than trying to use a ladle, wine theif, or 
hydrometer jar to pull out a sample.  However, I suppose I could 
carefully dump the lees out of the carboy into a hydrometer jar 
and wait an hour or two for all the yeast to settle out.  Probably 
the best solution.  But, just just for kicks...

- ---------<snip>----------------
If doing this in a bucket
how do you get your eye down the the level of the liquid surface 
for
proper observation of the meniscus?
- ---------<snip>----------------

I'm pretty confident that I can spot the value within my error 
bars by looking carefully at the hydrometer.  I would bet that I 
can get within +/- 0.001 of what you would see looking level with 
the surface of the liquid.  I could definitely test this 
hypothesis, and I will as soon as I can borrow a hydrometer jar.

- -------------<snip>---------------
I suppose we could do a gedenken experiment: Fill a corny keg 
absolutely
full of water, hold it at 45F and put 9 psi CO2 on it. The tables 
say
that evenutally it will come to equilibrium at 2 volumes. That 
means 38
litres of CO2, approximately a mole and a third, have dissolved. 
This is
59 grams. Thus there are 19L in the keg consisting of 19KG of 
water and
59 grams of CO2 for a density of  (19000 + 59)/19000 = 1.00311 or
specific gravity of  1.00491. That's the amount of increase in 
density
assuming the volume does not change and is a rough indicator of 
the
magnitude of the error. Saturated at ambient the dissolved volume 
would
be about half of this and the resulting SG about 1.0025.
- -------<snip>---------------------

I was more worried about the extra buoyancy from the dissolved 
CO2--but I guess dissolved CO2 doesn't *form* bubbles until some 
disturbance causes bubble formation, or in the presence of 
nucleation sites.  So maybe the situation is close to the 
calculation above, which is how I originally considered it to be.  
So depending upon the number of volumes of CO2 present, our error 
in bulk density is quite small (and wouldn't the specific gravity 
of your solution be 1.00319, as the density of water at 7.2 C is 
0.99992?), approximately 0.3-0.5% in this case.  I'm interested in 
nailing my S.G. down to +/- 0.002, which, if you asks some folks, 
is as good as you can hope for without spending lots of cash:

- ---------<snip from #4897, steve a>------------------
In sum a well designed lab hydrometer may have resolution of about 
0.5
degrees, but temp, pressure, gasses, and probably most important,
manufacturing tolerances mean that the accuracy is seldom as low 
as
0.5 degrees.  It's rather unlikely that an $8 hydrometer will
accurately read to within +- 1degree and +-2degrees is likely.
- -----------<snip>--------------------------------

- --------------<snip>-----------
try spinning the hydrometer to free it from the bubbles
- -------<snip>-----------------

If I'm careful, I can free my hydrometer from bubbles without 
forming more.  Takes some work, but it's doable.

In degassing a sample the way most folks do it (I assume) by 
pouring it back and forth between two containters, don't we 
introduce dissolved O2 (amongst other constituents of air) while 
expelling the CO2?  I know the effect would be very small, but it 
appears it is so with the CO2 also...

Can someone with a hydrometer jar please comment on differences 
you see if you want to give this a spin next time?  Maybe measure 
S.G. with hydrometer in bottling bucket or keg, measure S.G. of 
un-degassed sample, and S.G. of degassed sample.  I wouldn't 
expect (based on what I've seen) large differences.

Thanks again for the helpful insight, AJ.  Don't know how much 
more discussion (or flaming of yours truly) this will generate, 
but I have certainly leared something by thinking about this 
issue.

Kyle



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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:48:46 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: boiling water infusions vs applying direct heat

I've always mashed in my brew kettle.  I usually dough in at room temp with 
a grist to liquor ratio of 1.33 qts. per pound, then step up to sach range 
or I may go with a beta amylase rest around 96F if using grain that forms 
gums.  Recently, I have had problems with head retention.  I figured that I 
was either mashing too long (90 mins), or spending too much time passing 
through the 120 F range resulting in protein degradation.  So, I decided to 
try something new.  I cut my mash time back to 45 minutes.  And, for a 
couple of batches, I added grain to hot water in my igloo mash tun to 
immediately reach mash temperature.  I heated the strike water 16 or so 
degrees more than the mash temp and adjusted from there.  Then it dawned on 
me that the whole point of mashing-in with cold water is to prevent the 
formation of starch lumps.  So, this weekend, I decided to mash in with a 
fraction of the calculated liquor (0.44 qts per pound of grain) which should 
be just enough to wet the grain, and then boil the remaining liquor and add 
to the mash to raise the mash temperature to sach range.  The temperature of 
the grain cold water mixture (at 0.44 qts per pound) was 63F.  Here is the 
problem.  I live at 5200 ft, and water boils at about 203F.  For my latest 
batch this weekend, I added all of the remaining boiling liquor to the mash 
tun (remaining volume calculated at 1.33 qts per pound), and failed to reach 
sach temp.  I had to heat and add several more quarts of water to reach sach 
range, diluting the mash beyond 1.33 qts per pound and maxing out the volume 
of the 5 gallon igloo cooler before reaching sach.

How much cold water (volume per pound ratio) is needed to prevent starch 
ball formation?
How do I calculate how much boiling water at 203F would needed to raise a 
63F grain water mixture  (at given volume to grain ratio) to 155F?  Will I 
always be faced with a thin mash given that I am limited by a 5 gallon mash 
tun and 203F water?

Todd in Fort Collins
Liquid Poets Homebrew Club




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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:32:17 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: How to calculate no sparge recipes?

I would like to try a no sparge batch.  I typically get 80% efficiency, and 
use mid range values to estimate the number of points per pound of grain 
taken from tables in "Designing Great Beers".  Let's say I chose to use a 
mild ale malt with and estimated 35.5 points per pound with a target gravity 
of 1038 and a final volume of 22 quarts.  I need to end up with 38 x 5.5 = 
209 gravity points.  7.5 lbs of malt x 0.80% efficiency x 35.5 points per 
pound yields 213 points.  I mash with 1.33 qts per pound of grain so 1.33 x 
7.5 = 10 quarts.  Some will be absorbed by the grain, I think it's 10% 
absorption?  This is where I get lost.  How do you figure the gravity needed 
  from the total volume of first runnings to make the volume dilution 
calculation  (gravity) x (volume) = (1038 final gravity) x (22 quarts final 
volume)?  How much sugar comes out in the first runnings?

Todd in Fort Collins
Liquid Poets Homebrew Club




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