---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Cider Yeast (David Edge)
  Re: Lager fermentation (Pete Limosani)
  diacetyl rest (leavitdg)
  Wheat Stem Rust - Better purchase that malted wheat now! (leavitdg)
  Subject: Cider yeast ("Michael M. McClatchey")
  Ferment and Sulfur ("A.J deLange")
  Re: whiskey barrel aged beer ("R. Daubel")
  html and the HBD redux ("Pat Babcock")
   ("Jay Spies")
  re:cider yeast (Raj B Apte)
  Yeast Starter Preferred Methods ("Dirk Bridgedale")
  Re:Half coupler on my boil kettle (Michael Eyre)
  Update: Onion-smelling Belgian brew (Richard Lynch)
  RE: Half coupler on my boil kettle (John B McKissack)
  Dextrins - Or a Short lesson in simple sugars ("phil wilcox")
  Taking a corny keg on an airplane? (Nathan J. Williams)
  Dextrins II - Or a Long lesson in simple sugars ("phil wilcox")
  Re: Cider yeast (Bob Tower)


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:45:42 +0000
From: David Edge <david at craftbrewing.org.uk>
Subject: Cider Yeast

Gary Smith asks about yeast for cider.

I don't make cider myself, but know some people who do. Normal UK 
craft practice is to use the yeast on the apple skins - ie add 
nothing. If a foreign yeast is added Champagne-type dried yeasts can 
cope with the high alcohol.

http://ukcider.co.uk/wiki/ might be a useful resource.


David Edge, Derby
www.craftbrewing.org.uk 



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:39:43 -0500
From: Pete Limosani <peteLimo at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Lager fermentation

Doug Moyer asks about diacetyl rests for lagers.

Doug,
When I first started brewing lagers (about 6 years ago) I was worried 
about precise timing and temperature and testing the gravity to make 
sure I was doing everything right at the perfect moment. What I've 
developed is a rhythm. It beats worrying and opening the carboy a lot 
for gravity readings. The temperature is all I'm concerned about, the 
rhythm is in the timing.

I pitch my yeast at 68-70* (others swear by pitching at fermentation 
temps, but this has worked great for me and is recommended by both 
Wyeast & White Labs). When fermentation is noticeable in the carboy, 
I move it to the refrigerator at 64*. Starting the next day, I 
ratchet down the temperature 2* each morning, then again in the 
evening. In 3 days I'm down to about 50*.

On the twelfth day, I remove the carboy from the refrigerator and let 
it sit at room temperature for two days. Then I rack it to a 
secondary and put it back in the fridge. (I typically brew on 
Sundays, so I start the rest on Friday and rack it on Sunday.) It's 
important not to rack it until the end of the diacetyl rest.

I put it back in the refrigerator at 60* (I'd turned it up Friday 
when I removed the carboy). Then next day, I begin ratcheting down 
the temp again, using the same rhythm (2* in the morning, 2* in the 
evening), until I'm down to 32* (about a week). Then I lager it for 5 
more weeks (6 total).

On the Friday before I bottle, I turn the refrigerator up to 40*, 
then on Saturday, I turn the refrigerator up to 50* (I believe this 
gets the yeast pepped up again to prepare to carbonate). Then I prime 
and bottle. I put the bottles back in the refrigerator for two weeks 
 at  50*. Then, I drop the temperature to 44* and condition for two more 
weeks. I leave it there until consumed.

I brew a lot of Bohemian Pilsners. It's a style that doesn't leave a 
lot of room for error. It's been a long time since I've had a batch 
that wasn't smooth as silk and I use my rhythm faithfully. I almost 
always start with a gravity of 1.050. I take gravity readings when I 
rack and when I bottle. I've had gravities as varied a 1.009 to 1.021 
when I rack, but they are usually 1.010 to 1.012 when I bottle and 
the beer is very consistent. I've learned not to worry about the 
variability in gravity when I rack. Give a lager about 12 weeks and 
it will find its way.

BTW-Don't be surprised if your gravity goes from 1.016 to 1.010 
during the diacetyl rest!

Note: I use Wyeast 2278 most often. It likes it at 50*. I used White 
Labs a couple times and found primary fermentation very slow. Their 
packaging doesn't recommend fermentation temperature, so I assumed it 
was the same at Wyeast. In an e-mail, White Labs recommended 
fermenting their lager yeast (at least 800 & 802) at 55*. You may 
want to check with them about 838. The slow fermentation threw of my 
rhythm, so I never tried it again.

Pete Limosani




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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:02:15 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: diacetyl rest

I am not certain what others do, Doug, but here is what I do:

let it stay in primary for 2 weeks,
then let it come up to 60F for a few days,
then transfer to secondary,
then I drop the temp by a few degrees per day until
it gets to the mid-to lower range of the temp.
I let it stay there for at least 2 weeks,
hoverring on the low end,
then I bottle, letting it stay at ferm temps in the
bottle for a few to several days, then
I crash cool as cold as I can get, then I wait
until I cannot stand it, and try one!

Let's see what others do.

Happy Brewing!
Darrell
    Plattsburgh,NY 44 41 58 N Latitude
                   73 27 12 W Longitude

 [544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:22:38 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Wheat Stem Rust - Better purchase that malted wheat now!

WHEAT STEM RUST, STRAIN UG99 - YEMEN: FIRST REPORT
**************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

In this report on the Ug99 strain of wheat stem rust:
[1] Scientists warn of new form of stem rust
[2] Dangerous wheat disease jumps Red Sea

******
[1] Scientists warn of new form of stem rust
Date: 16 Jan 2007
From: ProMED-mail <promed at promedmail.org>
Source: United Press International [edited]
<http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20070116-103756-4197r>


US-based scientists say a new form of stem rust has moved from eastern
Africa into Yemen and the Arabian Peninsula. Researchers with the Global
Rust Initiative and the Agricultural Research Service of the United States
Department of Agriculture say there's also evidence the disease has spread
into Sudan, but more tests are needed to confirm the finding. Until the new
findings, the strain of stem rust known as Ug99 had only been seen in
Uganda, Kenya, and Ethiopia. The last major epidemic of stem rust occurred
in North America during the early 1950s and destroyed as much as 40 per
cent of the continent's spring wheat crop. Scientists plotting the probable
trajectory of the new fungus say its spores can be carried over long
distances by winds. Models predict that if the fungus crossed from eastern
Africa to the Arabian Peninsula, it could easily spread to the vast
wheat-growing areas of North Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and India.
According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations,
countries in the predicted, immediate pathway grow about 25 per cent of the
Earth's wheat.

- -- 
ProMED-mail
<promed at promedmail.org>





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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:41:17 -0700
From: "Michael M. McClatchey" <mmm at promail.com>
Subject: Subject: Cider yeast

I've had very good results with Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast. I
couldn't get enough of it this year, so I've got some carboys
fermenting with D-47, sorry, forgot the brand. The D-47 carboys haven't
cleared yet, but the Champagne ones are apparently ready to bottle,
although I'm going to leave it in carboys until early spring.
The Champagne yeast seems to be fairly common in hard cider, and the
D-47 was recommended to me by our local home brewing supply store guy.

Good luck! I like mine so much I want to set up a commercial winery.
I've got 145 gallons in glass right now.
I'll have to throw a party this summer...
> 
> I've made mead but this will be my first hard cider. I would 
> appreciate suggestions for a worthy yeast. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Gary 
> 
> 
> 



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:56:48 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Ferment and Sulfur

It's important to note that a sulfur smell is quite normal with many 
strains of yeast (though I don't know if the strain in question is one 
of them because I have never used it). On New Years day I brewed a stout 
with the London Ale strain and it completed fermentation in 2 days and 
so was drinkable on the 3rd of January but was a little sulfur stinky 
then and for a couple of days after that. With many lager strains the 
fermenting room "smells like a paper plant" in the words of one of my 
brewing friends (to be honest I don't know what a paper plant smells 
like but assume it must be pretty sulfurous). The Germans call this 
"Jungbuket" (prounounced like Hyacinth's last name?) implying that it 
should be well reduced by the time lagering is complete. Nonetheless  a 
sulfur note is an essential part of the style of a continental Pils 
though only the most experienced judges seem to be aware of this. 
Coincidental to this discussion another member of my brewing club was 
over last weekend with his charming daughters the younger of whom, 9 I 
think, accompanied us to the taps. My friend draws a Vienna (lagered a 
month or so), thrusts it under the child's nose and says "Eloise [name 
changed to protect the innocent], do you get any sulfur in that?" The 
child concentrates and says "No, dad". So I handed her a mug of the Pils 
(lagered at least 3 months) and she says "Wow, yes!". The strains 
involved were the White Labs Maerzen in the former case and the White 
Labs Budvar Pils in the latter the point being that some strains throw a 
lot more sulfur than others. For the record, no underage drinking took 
place. Only sniffing.

A.J.


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:39:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "R. Daubel" <rdaubel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: whiskey barrel aged beer


> So, does anybody have any good ideas of what kind of beer I should
put
> in here?  I presume that the correct method is to use the barrel as a
> secondary.  How do I sanitize this thing?  Do I even try?  Also, does
> anyone have any suggestions on how to get the bung back out?  It 
> wasn't in very tight when it was dry, but I tapped it in too far when

> I filled it with water and now it is in there really tight.  

Hi Jason,

when our club did a couple barrel projects we first did a Russian Imp. 
Stout.  after that came out, we put a Wee Heavy in (some rinsing of the

barrel in between, but that's all)  We did get a slight lactobacillus 
aroma from the Wee Heavy when we were racking, but that doesn't seem to

have carried into the bottled/kegged final products.  We also did an 
Eng. Barley wine in another barrel.

I've been told to use sulpher sticks to sanitize the barrels.  Haven't 
done this yet.

I used a cork screw (one I didn't really care about) to get the bung 
out.  Then get a rubber bung with a hole for an airlock to seal the 
barrel after filling.

Cheers!
 -Ron



 


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:13:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: html and the HBD redux

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well, since the complaints late last year regarding bounced 
html messages, I've been monitoring the rejection notices 
sent to me by the server. To date, the spam messages 
rejected through the html filter have numbered in the 
hundreds; legitimate posts: one. 

Granted, it's only about 20 days worth of data, but this 
data does not suggest that it would be advantageous to the 
Digest to first modify the server to decode HTML and then 
to modify the filters to allow it through to be decoded; 
however, I will continue to take the modification under 
advisement, and will continue monitoring until I have an 
opportunity to hack the code once more...

See ya!
Pat Babcock
Chief of Janitorial Services





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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:24:23 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: 



All -

Jason asks how to get the bung out of the old whisky barrel he has...

Great find on the barrell, BTW...that size is almost nonexistent.

I'd try drilling a drywall screw into the bung and then using a pair of
channel-locks or vise-grips to pull out the bung by tugging on the screw.
You could make it easier by predrilling a pilot hole so the act of screwing
in the screw doesn't expand the bung further...

Hope this helps,

Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
York, PA



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:38:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Raj B Apte <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:cider yeast

Gary asks about cider yeast.

I make 15g of cider every year directly from apples. I
never add yeast, nutrient, or anything else--it's not
needed. If you are starting from juice, then doing so
depends on whether you trust the cleanliness of the press.
If clean, a spontaneous fermentation is really fun.

If you don't trust the source (or spontaneous
fermentation), I would sulfite and then use a white wine
yeast. I use Chr. Hansen Melody. Cider is wine, not beer--I
wouldn't recommend a beer yeast.

raj


 


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:44:12 -0800
From: "Dirk Bridgedale" <dirk at bridgedale.net>
Subject: Yeast Starter Preferred Methods

I'm looking for a consensus on preferred pitching methods.

1)  Create a small starter and pitch while still active.
    -- OR --
2)  Create a large starter, let ferment out and pitch slurry only.

For lager yeast, there still is some yeast in suspension during the
lagering phase, therefore this yeast is lost if pitching just the
slurry.

My next batch, a 1.060 lager, I plan to create a 2 gallon
starter(1.040) using two pitchable tubes.  Let it ferment out, chill
it to 32F for a week, then brew.  Is there a better way to achieve a
faster start?

Participate in Poll Here:
morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19048

- -- 
Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy  -  Benjamin Franklin

Dirk Bridgedale


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:44:09 -0800
From: Michael Eyre <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re:Half coupler on my boil kettle

Still thinking this over in my head now, and I forget what he originally 
intended this particular kettle for... but how about just screwing a one 
of those 'MPT's on one side and compression fitting things on the other 
side' type fittings into the usable outside coupler. Then, push a length 
of, I think, soft copper tube (soft copper goes by O.D., I believe..) 
through that compresson fitting and socking that down tight. bend the 
soft copper wherever you need it inside the kettle and go from there. 
You can do another compression fitting on the outside of that tube back 
out into whatever you need, be it Male of Female MPT to hook up whatever 
you need. It seems that this setup would ideally be usable for a HLT, 
but I suppose you can get away with most anything.

Mike


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:37:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Lynch <rlny7575 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Update: Onion-smelling Belgian brew

Thanks to everyone for the responses.
I went ahead and added another batch of wort to my
possibly doomed batch of Belgian Pale Ale. It
contained 2 lbs. of DME, 1 lb. of homemade candi
sugar.  C02 was  at  1 bubble/5 seconds after 2 minutes!!

The smell has subsided a bit, I think ( or is it all
the incense I've been burning just masking the odor?
;-]) Hopefully it's just a quirk of Safbrew T-58
working at 62-64F.  I'm  going to let the fermenter
warm up to 70-75F

I'll let everyone know my prognosis in a week or so
time.
You folks are the best, thanks again!


 


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:38:55 -0600
From: John B McKissack <JMcKissack at cbi.com>
Subject: RE: Half coupler on my boil kettle


>Half coupler on my boil kettle
>
>Does anyone have any creative solutions as to how I
>could attach a bazooka screen to the outlet?  The
>coupler is flush with the inside of the kettle.  I
>considered a false bottom, but all ones I've seen for
>boil kettles are pretty expensive.

I just improvised a bazooka tube like thing for my
Redneck HERMS. I went to the hardware store and bought
a short piece of clear tubing that fit perfectly into
the fitting going through the side of my mash/tun. I
cut the other end on a long angle so it is along the
bottom of the tun then I just slid a copper kitchen
scrubber over it. I guess for your purposes, you
could attach your bazooka tube to a very short piece
hose that fits in the fitting they welded on the pot.
It sure is easy to slide out and clean. I have a
video I put online yesterday, so you can see it.
Here is the link.
http://www.brewcrazy.com/videos.htm
It is in the video titled Redneck HERMS

Brewin to the MAX!
Johnny Max & Captain Ron
www.BrewCrAzY.com



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:35:50 -0500
From: "phil wilcox" <thephfb at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dextrins - Or a Short lesson in simple sugars

Greeting all. The nice part about being laid off is that I not only get to 
read
the hbd regularly, but I can also answer from home where my library is 
located.

Short Answer:
Dextrins, by definition, are not fermentable. Wheeler and Prost are in this 
case
just plain wrong. Even in the extreme case of trying to make "Lite" or "Dry"
low-carb beers, something no British gentleman would ever attempt, enzymes 
are
added to the wort to CONVERT the dextrins to fermentable sugars. Thus 
allowing
further fermentation to occur and the resulting beer will be Lite-er or 
dry-er
than would normally be the case.

Responses to thepfhb at comcast dot net please. i had to create a hotmail 
one just
to post to the hbd...
- --
Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Secretary - Prison City Brewers (Former Warden)
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, Etc., Et. al ...



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:53:25 -0500
From: nathanw at MIT.EDU (Nathan J. Williams)
Subject: Taking a corny keg on an airplane?


A few weeks ago, my father and I brewed a 20-gallon batch on his 1-bbl
system. I've been considering visiting again (he's about 500 miles
away) and helping him bottle the bulk of it, and taking 5 gallons of
it back in one of my corny kegs.

I had been planning to drive, or possibly take the train, and make a
long weekend of it, but now it looks like business travel will put me
in the vicinity at the right time. However, that travel has to be air
travel. Travelling with an empty corny on the way down, in baggage,
seems marginal but possible. Travelling back up with a full one,
though, seems like it could be problematic, if the airlines and/or
security even permit it. Has anyone done this (or failed to do this)
recently, and have tips? Failing this, are there shipping services I
could engage?

      - Nathan



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:38:47 -0500
From: "phil wilcox" <thephfb at hotmail.com>
Subject: Dextrins II - Or a Long lesson in simple sugars 

Long Answer:
George Fix, Principles of Brewing Science, 2nd Ed. pgs 18-22 Has a great 
little
section on wort sugars. Any brewer who enjoys reading the "For Geeks
Only" section in Zymurgy, or has an engineering, chemistry or biology 
background
should go out and buy this book. Its worth the read.
It does come with a warning though. Knowledge and understanding of this book 
has
made ultra beer geeks out of perfectly normal people. These ultra beer geeks 
are
quite prone to quitting their normal corporate high paying jobs to go out 
and
start brewpubs and microbreweries on their own.
I have been able to resist the temptation for 14 years but now that my 
company
is offing me a nice cash severance I could use as starter capital, I--like a
dextrin, am finding my upper limit degrading quickly. OK enough personal 
history
and bad chemistry puns, onto a long sweet lesson in sugars...

Glucose is the simple form of sugar. It is a single 6 chain molecule 
(hexagon)
of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen molecules.

Fructose is another simple sugar consisting of a single 5 chain molecule.
(pentagon)

Maltose is two glucose stuck together in the most simple fashion--end to 
end. If
you count the points (the carbon atoms) of the hexagon starting at a point 
as 1
the other point will be #4, thus the common description of a 1-4 carbon 
bond.
(Or 1-4 link if you prefer that vernacular)

These 1-4 bonds are easy to break and that is exactly what we do in the 
mashing
process. The other common sugar bond is a 1-6 bond and these are much harder 
to
break. Indeed, hard enough to prevent fermentation by ale yeasts, however 
most
lager yeast have a pathway to do this.

Sucrose is a glucose bound to a fructose with simple 1-4 bond.

Other more complex sugars are made by mixing things up a bit. For instance
Laminaribose is two glucose molecules but instead of a 1-4 bond like maltose 
it
uses a 1-3 bond. Its unfermentable and it is the primary constituent in 
chill
haze.

Any ring, or series of rings, of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen can be called a
carbohydrate.

So what is a dextrin? Dextrins are complex sugars that have BOTH a 1-4 bond 
and
a 1-6 bond. They are also called alpha-glucans or in biochemistry terms
amylopectin's. They are all the same thing. Typically they break down into 4
groups, differentiated by how many glucose units are in the molecule.

Dextrins in Group 1 have 7 glucose units (one 1-6 bond and the rest 1-4 
bonds)
Dextrins in Group 2 have 13 glucose units (two 1-6 bonds and the rest 1-4 
bonds)
Dextrins in Group 3 have 19 glucose units (three 1-6 bonds and the rest 1-4
bonds) Dextrins in Group 4 have 25 glucose units (four 1-6 bonds and the 
rest
1-4 bonds)

Sugars are said to have low molecular weight because there are relatively 
few
molecules in a single sugar. Dextrins are said to have medium molecular 
weight
due to the number of sugar molecules they contain. Molecules with 1,000 
sugars
wound up in them are quite common barley and malt. We call them STARCH. Wind 
up
a couple thousand starches and what do you get? Protein.

In brewing the maltster is responsible for the process of converting protien 
in
the malt into starch. Grain brewers utilize mashing as the process of 
converting
starch into sugar.
Fermentation is the process yeast use to convert sugar into alcohol and 
carbon
dioxide.

Further references. I also dug out my copy of The Practical Brewer, by The
Master Brewers Association of the Americas 1977 (pg 102) that George Fix 
handed
me at the first MCAB as a door prize. This is the basic text book of
professional brewers from the 1940's till George Fix's book came out in the
1990's. Now even Siebel and UC Davis use George's book. Not bad for math
professor with a beer hobby. Rest in peace George, job well done. We'll 
always
miss you.
- --
Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer, Secretary - Prison City Brewers (Former Warden)
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, Etc., Et. al ...



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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:10:40 -0800
From: Bob Tower <roberttower at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Cider yeast

Gary Smith asks for a cider yeast recommendation.

Gary, I whole heartedly recommend Lalvin K1V-1116. I now use it  
exclusively for all my ciders (and I make a lot of cider!). This  
strain tends to wipe out other microorganisms that come into contact  
with your must (it's called a "killer" strain). Between this yeast,  
rising alcohol and dropping pH (once active fermentation starts) the  
bad guys don't stand a chance. In fact, I don't sulfite my must at  
all. I don't even sanitize the equipment! I just dump everything into  
the fermenter (fruit, juice, sugar, yeast nutrients, pectic enzyme,  
acids, etc.) and stir it with my wooden mash paddle, then pitch the  
yeast. Sometimes I oxygenate, sometimes I don't. The ciders come out  
very clean. Almost too clean. This yeast does not generate much  
sulfur (at least not under my conditions). Typically, cider  
(especially apple and pear cider) has a small amount of sulfur in the  
flavor profile. But with this yeast, the sulfur seems to be absent. I  
don't mind either way but my wife HATES the sulfur flavor (aroma). I  
recently bought a bottle of apple cider made by a small cider house  
in northern California and it had a typical slight sulfur aroma (I  
believe they use a Champagne strain if I remember correctly) and she  
really noticed it. I guess she's become accustomed to my K1V-1116  
cider. I  have a friend who also detests the sulfur component. If you  
don't mind the sulfur missing, then this is a great strain.

Otherwise if you are looking for a more traditional cider yeast, I've  
had excellent results from the strains offered by White Labs and  
Wyeast. However, I do prefer the Wyeast strain over the White Labs  
strain. The Wyeast strain emphasizes the fruit character noticeably  
more than does the White Labs strain. They also both leave a slight  
amount of residual sweetness. The batches I made with both of these  
strains (probably 2-3 batches each) all ended up at 1.000 SG  
(starting gravity was around 1.050). By contrast, K1V-1116 ferments  
down to 0.994-0.996 with the same must. Both the White Labs and  
Wyeast strains produce the classic sulfur character.

Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA



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