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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #513 (October 09, 1990) (Karl J Molnar)
  Apple beer?  Ice? (Shaun Vecera)
  Re:DMSux (Jason Goldman)
  Wyeast 2206 / Duesseldorf goof (Norm Hardy)
  Beginner's Questions (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  Trouble with liquid yeast (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  Sterilizing (sanitizing?) (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  A bit of Homebrew History? (John DeCarlo)
  re. A bit of homebrew history (mage!lou)
  Eisbock, Eis-wine (Tony Klein)
  Kegs (dreger)
  RE: Repeal (Mike Fertsch)
  RE: Nutty beers and eisbock (Mike Fertsch)
  Raspberry stout (Bill Crick)


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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 07:55:16 EDT
From: molnar at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Karl J Molnar)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #513 (October 09, 1990)

then stop sending me the stats.

karl

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Date: Tue,  9 Oct 90 10:00:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Shaun Vecera <sv11+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Apple beer?  Ice?

I'm getting ready to brew my second batch of beer, and I had a couple of
questions.  Any and all responses would be useful.

1. Has anyone brewed with apples or apple juice to make apple beer?  I'd
like to try this but I'm not sure how much to add, what kind to use, etc.

2. There was a question posted last month about putting ice in your
strainer while sparging.  I didn't see any responses, so here's the
question again:  Can you get away with this cheap wort cooler, provided
you sterilize your ice cube trays and cover them while in the freezer?

Thanks in advance

Shaun Vecera

sv11+ at andrew.cmu.edu
vecera at psy.cmu.edu

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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 08:18:51 mdt
From: Jason Goldman <jdg at hp-lsd.cos.hp.com>
Subject: Re:DMSux

Well, I didn't get any responses on my posting about DMS problems. so I took the
easy way out:  I didn't do anything!  I finally got around to bottling this last
weekend and I smelled (and tasted the beer).  Aparently, almost all of the DMS has
blown off.  I say almost all because it's safer to be pessimistic.  I guess that
everything's is going to be okay.

I have learned a lesson here.  At least half of my batches have had something 
catastrophic happen.  Every time, I get worried and I ask advice.  I either get
conflicting advice, no advice, or "um, wait and see" advice.  Every time, I wait
and the beer turns out drinkable, even when that seemed impossible at the time.
RDWHAHB, dammit.


Jason
jdg at hp-lsd.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 8 Oct 90 16:52:00 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Wyeast 2206 / Duesseldorf goof

The yeast starter made with 2206 was probably okay, but you should consider
using .25 tsp of yeast nutrient in the boil, especially considering the
age of the package.  You may also want to make another starter with more
malt to give the yeast a good boost before brewing.  

Wife Karen informed me that Duesseldorf's name comes from the brook/creek 
prefix but that the DORF comes from the German word for town.  The part of
kids doing cartwheels is a part of the legend of the city and sometimes a 
duessel can mean FOOL.  Also thanks Rick Zucher.

Norm Hardy


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Date: Tuesday, 9 Oct 1990 10:28:41 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Beginner's Questions

>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 90 20:14:49 -0400
>From: dlawson at grebyn.com (Drew Lawson)

>There seem to be a small collection of books that are held as
>the Farmers' Almanac of Brewing.  What are these, and which
>would you recommend for a beginner?

I recommend getting and reading both
_The_Complete_Handbook_Of_Home_Brewing by Dave Miller and
_The_Complete_Joy_Of_Home_Brewing by Charlie Papazian.  I think
that Dave better explains the equipment needed, as well as a very
detailed procedure for the first-time brewer to follow.
Charlie's book is more fun to read, though, and has more
interesting recipes.

>Lastly, it still may be a few months before I have the funds to
>get started.  I take it that this is a temperature sensitive
>activity.  Is winter a bad time to start a batch?  (I'm in the
>Washington, DC area; basement in the 50s)

Actually, some people in the Washington area and further south
only brew in the fall/winter because lower temperatures are
generally a "good thing" in brewing.

John "P.S. Brew Masters in Rockville is the best local shop for
      home brewing supplies" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 9 Oct 1990 10:30:55 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Trouble with liquid yeast

>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 9:32:05 EDT
>From: davidson at hpanlr.an.hp.com
>Subject: Trouble with liquid yeast

>picked up some Wyeast Bavarian Lager #2206.  I
> ...
>The date code on the package was May 1990 so the woman at the
>store said it should take 4 days to swell (she was counting
>through September).

I have never found that guideline to be particularly accurate.  I
suspect that the temperature you leave the package at is much
more important than the date on the package.

>I broke the inner package Saturday evening,
>intending on making my starter on Wednesday and brewing on
>Thursday (it would be a good excuse to take an afternoon off).
>On Sunday, it had swelled about an inch, and by Monday morning
>it looked like it was going to burst.  Well I wasn't ready to
>brew yet (I couldn't pick up the refrigerator until Tuesday) so
>I had to let this football sit on the kitchen counter until
>Tuesday evening when I had time to make the starter.  Tuesday I
>made up the starter (process described below), pitched the
>yeast, and waited, and waited, and waited...  My past
>experiences with dry yeast had always been very quick - pitch at
>about midnight and wake to the sounds of blub, blub, blub.

What I did once in a similar situation was simply prepare the
starter once the packet swelled, and let the starter go past high
krausen.  Worked very well.  If I worried, I could have always
racked into another starter, leaving the dead yeast behind.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 9 Oct 1990 10:32:38 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Sterilizing (sanitizing?)

>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 90 13:08:58 PDT
>From: Kevin Karplus <karplus at ararat.ucsc.edu>

>I wonder why everyone is into chemical sterilizers (bleach,
>etc.) these days.  I've always sterilized everything with
>boiling water (including my carboys), and never had any trouble
>with infections.  With Boiling water, there is no problem with
>contamination of the brew with the sterilizing agent.

I would be interested in hearing how you managed this fine trick.
Here are some reasons I don't sanitize everything with boiling
water:

1) It takes a long time to boil water, especially large amounts
of it.

2) Assuming it only takes ten minutes exposure to boiling water
to sanitize/sterilize, that is still a tough problem making sure
an entire carboy is full of boiling water for ten minutes.

3) Small plastic things like spoons and tubing could conceivably
melt at high heat.

4) Glass carboys are subject to temperature shock.  I have heard
stories of people cracking them by pouring in boiling hot wort
and adding cold water.  Sounds risky to me.

And, in general, I can pour cold water in lots of different
containers with little problem, add some bleach, and just relax
for a half hour or so and the work is done.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tuesday, 9 Oct 1990 10:34:22 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  A bit of Homebrew History?

>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 90 8:55:25 CDT
>From: Jeff Benson <benson at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>

>Here's a question for you homebrewing old-timers ;-).

>_The Family Creative Workshop_ (Plenary Publications Intl., Inc.
>1974).  ...  Anyway, in volume 3 was a chapter titled "Brewing
>With Roots and Herbs" by Nicholas E.  Leddo.  On page 293, Mr.
>Leddo writes:
>
>  "At the present time, federal law prohibits the home brewing of
>   beers made of fermented hops and malt.  You cannot get a
>   license to make your own brew as you can to make your own
>   wine, but no law prohibits making the old-time soft beers
>   ..."

Here is my understanding.  In 1979, a federal bill was passed,
sponsored by Senator Alan Cranston, that made home brewing legal
on the federal level.  One specific portion was simply to create
the class of person that is not subject to federal taxes and
permits.  Thus, all one-adult households can brew up to 100
gallons of beer a year and remain in this category.  All
multi-adult households can brew up to 200 gallons of beer a year.
These specific sections affect in the Tax Code statutes.

If there is sufficient interest, I could get an electronic copy
of the bill and post it to the net.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 13:09:47 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: re. A bit of homebrew history

In HBD #513 Jeff Benson asks about when and how homebrewing became legal.
I suggest reading the section entitled "Is It Legal" in TCJoHB, p.2.

Louis Clark


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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 11:20:36 CDT
From: Tony Klein <ncrons!klein at RELAY.CS.NET>
Subject: Eisbock, Eis-wine


Originally, Chip made the comment (this was part of discussion
about something totally different):

>From: cjh at vallance.eng.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
 ...
>People in cold
>climates used to produce "winter wine" of 20-25%(?) alcohol by putting 
>the wine out on cold nights and throwing away the (mostly water) ice each 
>morning; I don't know that this would be worthwhile with beer (unless 
>you wanted to try a strange way of making something as strong as 
>]barley wine[), but it could be interesting with mead, fruit mead, 
>or even high-proof hard cider.

To which Rick replied:

From: noah at cs.washington.edu (Rick Noah Zucker)
> Actually this is done in Germany.  It is done with a style called
> Eisbock (ice bock).  I'd have to look it up to get more information.

And now I say:
Hmmm, how very interesting.  A while back my parents took a trip
to the 'old country' (Austria). They brought back with them some 'Eis[wine]' 
(I don't know how to spell it) which they claimed was made from grapes that
had been allowed to freeze on the vine.   I was dubious about this - seems
to me that allowing grapes to freeze will ruin them.  But they
did not know any more details since they were not interested in the
whole manufacturing process .... So I concluded that the story was somehow
messed up in translation and left the matter as yet another unsolved
question of these modern times. 

(I once spotted a bottle of "Eiswine" in the local liquor store - icicles 
and snowdrifts on the label, hefty price tag (~$12 for a little bottle) 
imported from Germany.) 

So my question: Do you figure it's called 'ice wine' because it's distilled
(fortified) via freezing as mentioned above?  No frozen grapes involved? 
More interesting information would be, well, interestingly informative.

Just wondering,
<TK>

____/|  Tony Klein                    NCR Comten, St.Paul, MN 612-638-7665
 () \|  klein at stpaul.ncr.com          ...uunet!ncrlnk!ncrstp!npdiss1!klein



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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 16:16:00 PDT
From: dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu
Subject: Kegs


Hello,
I was just reading the latest Zymurgy and discovered an add for alternative
Beverage companies stainless steel kegs.  I called them and the told me they
are shipped "as is from the soda manufacturor."  I was wondering if anyone
reading the digest has purchased kegs from this outfit and what quality the
kegs were ?

Tkx

Doug

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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 13:21 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: RE: Repeal

Jeff Benson asks about "A bit of Homebrew History?"

> Here's a question for you homebrewing old-timers ;-).

> from a 1974 book -  "At the present time, federal law prohibits the home
> brewing of beers made of fermented hops and malt.  You cannot get a license
> to make your own brew as you can to make your own wine, but no law
> prohibits making the old-time soft beers ..." 
> My question is this:  was homebrewing as we know it now illegal back in
> 1974 when this book was published?  

Homebrew became legal (in most states) in 1978.

> If I thought of it at all, I guess I assumed the right was granted when
> prohibition was repealed.  So what's the straight dope? 

Apparently there was a mistake when the post-prohibition laws were written. 
Winemaking was specifically allowed, but due to some clerical omission, 
beermaking was not made legal.  In 1978, they finally got around to fixing 
the law.  Sen. Alan Cranston (CA) sponsored the law that legalized 
home beermaking.

Mike "I am not an old-timer" Fertsch

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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 90 13:23 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: RE: Nutty beers and eisbock

Chris Burghart asks about nutty beer

> I have tasted beers with ``nutty'' flavor and seen many described that
> way, but I have never seen a beer recipe that actually makes use of nuts.
> Does anyone out there have such a recipe?  Is there any special reason
> that I wouldn't want to use nuts for brewing?  Walnuts in particular seem
> like they would make an interesting addition.

Normally, nuts should be avoided in beer.  Nuts contain lot of oils.  These 
result in extremely poor head retention.  I'm not sure what is in nut extracts 
(eg - almond extract), but they may be worth considering.

Real brewers play tricks with the yeast to get a buttery, nutty taste in
beer.  Sam Smith uses shallow fermenters, special yeast, and careful
temperature control to get yeast to fall out of suspension at "just the
right time".  Removal of yeast at "just the right time" will impart a
butters, nutty taste. 

 ------------------------------
Chip Hitchcock asks about freezing beverages:

> People in cold climates used to produce "winter wine" of 20-25%(?) alcohol
> by putting the wine out on cold nights and throwing away the (mostly water)
> ice each morning; I don't know that this would be worthwhile with beer
> (unless you wanted to try a strange way of making something as strong as
> ]barley wine[), but it could be interesting with mead, fruit mead, or even
> high-proof hard cider. 

The Germans produce a strong doppelbock called "eisbock" (ice_bock).  As 
suggested, it has some of the water frozen and removed; the resulting 
solution in maltier and more alcoholic than normal doppelbocks.  The 
Germans also make an eiswein, produced by freezing wine.

Mike Fertsch

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Date: 	Tue, 9 Oct 1990 11:31:48 EDT
From: hplabs!ames!gatech!bnr-vpa!bnr-rsc!crick (Bill Crick)
Subject: Raspberry stout

I started a batch of the Raspberry Imperial Stout from Zymrgy.
I got a friends pot and primary as a backup, and I sure needed it. If you
plan to make this beer, you need one HUGE pot, or if you use the enamelled
3 gallon canning pots plan on using two. This sucker had about 33 pounds
of ingredients! I was wondering if I would have room for water!
I split the batch into two primaries, and a I planned to use two yeasts,
I started them both, and put one in each.
One fermenter has a packet of Red Star Pastuer Champagne yeast. This one
 took off real quick (6-10hrs to start of krausen?).
The second has a packet of Cordon Brew (?) ale and stout yeast. This one lagged
for almost two days before I saw much other than the odd bubble on the surface,
but has biult aup a good krausen now (day 4). Does anyone know what will happen
when I mix these two together in secondary? Will one yeast dominate? Which one?

Someone asked how long to keep specialty beers? Well I made some Cherries in the
Snow in 1987, and it is comming along real fine now. I haven't noticed a lot
of change since it was about 18months old, but it does seem to be still
smoothing out a bit. It still has an astringent or acidic aftertaste, but 
that may be the nature of the beast. The only Framboise I ever had (commercial)
had that same dry mouth finish??

About the people having trouble with yeasts, I have used various dry yeasts for
15 years, and have never had a problem I could blame on the yeast*. If you
are having problems, I'd suggest you look elsewhere in your process, unless
youhave already proven it is the yeast by splitting a batch and using two 
yeasts to show one is bad. Even then look carefully at what happened after the 
split.
Yeasts I've used include: Red Star, Doric, Great Dane, Bierkeller, EDME,
                          "beer yeast" (in kits?).....

*NOTE: I've had very few problems overall. Keep it reasonably clean and 
      you should be OK! I've been trying to fuckup beer for years, and 
     haven't yet managed to? And believe me,I've tried!
Bill Crick Brewius, Ergo Stout!




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #514, 10/10/90
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