---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  Black Currant beer ("V70NPT::LENO")
  mashing (Pete Soper)
  English Beer Bottles (Mike Fertsch)
  Re: To mash or not to mash (Dave Hollenbeck)
  replacement for plastic primaries (Donald P Perley)
  re: digest of 1/16/89, mashing (Darryl Richman)
  more on finings (rdg)
  All grains, trouble, etc (florianb)
  Mashing (David Baer)
  ????? (Jeff Miller)
  the all-malt vs. finings (Ihor W. Slabicky)
  primary fermentors, first time mashing etcetera (rogerl)
  Request Help on fixing beer (harvard!ima!wang7!klm)
  pale malt (Pete Soper)
  temperature/time, brew shop, San Diego visit (Frederic W. Brehm)
  closed fermentation vs. open (Mike Meyer)

Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Jan 89 08:28:00 EDT
From: JBAUER at BAT.Bates.EDU

an added note on adding gelatin before bottling.  If you run your batch
through a piece of cheese cloth it will strain out a good amount of
what the gelatin has attracted as well as other particals still in suspension.

Does someone have an address for getting more info about the Zymurgy journal.
Our local brew supplies folks just sell the stuff.

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Date: 17 Jan 89 08:56:00 EST
From: "V70NPT::LENO" <leno%v70npt.decnet at nusc.ARPA>
Subject: Black Currant beer

  I was at the Commonwealth Brewery in Boston this weekend and
 ordered what they called a Black and Gold. I expected their
 version of a black and tan. What I got was a rich amber ale
 with black currant as a flavoring. I was told that it wasn't
 verry popular. I fell inb love with it. Has anyone used black
 currant in beer before. Any recipes? They serve only there own
 beer and have about a dozen different types. I would recomend
 their in house beers, I can't verify the quality of their
 bottled beers.
     Scott

         "Let no man thirst for lack of real ale"
                  -Commonwealth Brewing Co.

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 09:53:40 est
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: mashing

Does anyone have a good procedure for calibrating a thermometer
around the 150 degree mark?

Also, has anyone seen a source of Hydrion number 433 PH test
papers? These span the range of 4.8 to 6.7.

--Pete Soper

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 08:49 EST
From: Mike Fertsch <hplabs!uiucdcs!meccad.RAY.COM!FERTSCH>
Subject: English Beer Bottles

Andy Newman <NEWMAN at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu> observes:

>	                                    ...  I just finished
>	bottling a batch last night (that's not the warning).  I 
>	used two cases of empty Sam Smith bottles because they
>	seemed rugged and looked attractive.  I notice, however,
>	one minor flaw with these bottles.  The mechanical hand
>	capper I have doesn't fit the neck of the bottle correctly.

I've had problems with other British beer bottles.  I like the look and shape
of Youngs bottles.  They're short, with very broad shoulders, but have a
smaller crown than American and Continental bottles.  I believe all British
bottles have a smaller crown.

I use a double-lever capper.  On most American bottles, I need to push the
handles down approximately 2/3 to seal the cap.  On bottles from the UK,
I need to push the handles all the way down, and I still don't think I am
getting a good seal.  (I haven't noticed lack of carbonation in these bottles,
so I guess I worry too much.)

The moral of the story is that all crown bottles are not the same; expect
variations from style to style.  All bottles can be chipped by cappers if
you are not careful.

Mike Fertsch

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 09:10:57 mst
From: Dave Hollenbeck <dbh at hpesdbh>
Subject: Re: To mash or not to mash

>  
>  	  My local brew supplies
>  	store claims that "it's not worth the trouble...the beer

If you're satisfied with the results you're getting from cans, he's right.
If you want ultimate control over your brew, mashing is for you.  In fact,
going all out with a step mash on the stove adds about 3-4 hours to the
brewing day, and it's not difficult, just tedious.

>  		a) What equipment should I buy?  What's mandatory,
>  		what's nice to have, and what's a total waste of
>  		money?

I've gotten by with only a nylon grain bag in addition to the standard
extract brewing equipment.  Of course, you need at least one vessel
(plastic bucket) with a spigot on it.  There are a few ways to support the
grain bag, one of the more obvious being drill many holes in the bottom
of another bucket and stack them.

>  		b) What is the relative cost of, say, pale malt
>  		versus canned malte extract and DME?  My supplier

I haven't really shopped around, but around here you can get grain for
about a dollar a pound.  It takes about 7 or 8 pounds to make a batch
when the mash is reasonably efficient.

>  		                  He doesn't stock quantities of
>  		unconverted malt.

Find another supplier.

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 11:07:20 EST
From: Donald P Perley <steinmetz!perley at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: replacement for plastic primaries

Andy Newman writes:

+	1) I currently use those large (~7 gallon) plastic lidded
+	buckets as primary fermenters.  While they are generally
+	adequate, the lids are damnably hard to remove and install
+	without shaking the brew around a lot.  It there anything
+	more -- um -- professional that is available that maintains
+	a good seal through, perhaps, a more precise manner?

Many people use glass carboys for primary fermentation with a blow off
tube.  If you want to stay with the bucket format there is a company
called "Utensco" (sp?) that makes all manner of stainless steel
implements, including various sized buckets with clamp on sealing lids.
A 7 gallon one with the lid drilled for a fermentation lock should
do nicely, and you could probably use it for boiling as well (if you 
get into mashing, it is nice to be able to boil a full 5 gallons).

Their phone number is 516-883-7300.  I've never bought anything from them.
They mostly make commercial restaurant stuff, but hopefully they will do
small orders.

-don perley

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 07:17:12 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: digest of 1/16/89, mashing

Andy Newman <NEWMAN at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu> writes:
"3) (Big question) I've recently become interested in trying
"my own mashing. Up until this point I've been making beer
"from various combinations of extract and adjuncts that already
"have undergone starch conversion. My local brew supplies
"store claims that "it's not worth the trouble...the beer
"kits are much better these days"...even if he's being
"truthful, I'd still like to try it. My two questions on
"this topic are:

Good for you.  It IS more trouble than working from extract, and you'll
have to find or build a couple of pieces.  It takes substantially more
time to brew.  But the materials are a whole lot cheaper.

"a) What equipment should I buy? What's mandatory,
"what's nice to have, and what's a total waste of
"money?

You have to have a boiling pot big enough to boil the full volume of
your beer + 20% (headroom and evaporation) at least;  the more the
better.  I have an 8 gallon pot that works well for 5 gallon batches.
You need to buy or build a lauter tun.  The one shown in Charlie
Papazian's Complete Joy should work real well:  it is 2 plastic
buckets, one fitting most of the way inside the other.  The inside
bucket's bottom is drilled with zillions of little holes.  There is a
tap at the bottom of the outer one.  The one I use is a 10 gallon
bucket with a tap at the bottom.  I have a round piece of sheet metal
that has been drilled with tiny holes and the outside covered with a
rubber ring so it doesn't scratch the plastic.  There are a variety of
other designs as well.  If you don't have one, you'll need a wort
chiller.  (I used to cool my 5 gallon batches in the sink for about an
hour;  I never lost a batch, but I worried a lot.)

"b) What is the relative cost of, say, pale malt
"versus canned malte extract and DME? My supplier
"charges about 8 dollars for a can of low-brow
"extract (3.3-3.5 pounds) and the same 8 dollars for
"4 pounds of DME. He doesn't stock quantities of
"unconverted malt.

My local shop charges $1/lb. for 2 row malt.  2 row is probably the easiest
and lightest colored malt to work with.  Maltose Falcons members get 20%
discount on meeting day.  We have bought it from the maltster as a coop
and the price was more like .30/lb., but we have to come up with a 500lb
min. order.  As a masher, you can expect to recover about 27-32 specific
gravity points per gallon of water per lb. of malt.  In other words, each
pound you put into 5 gallons returns about 6 specific gravity points.
If you are getting 1.055 out of two cans of malt, it'll take roughly 9
pounds of malt ot equal that.  Depending what price you can get, that is
at most half the cost.  Great Fermentations in Santa Rosa and The Home
Brewery in San Bernardino both do mail order, *crushed* grain at reasonable
prices.  (You must crush the grain properly, and a rolling pin, coffee mill,
or blender is not going to work.)

-----
Dave Hollenbeck <dbh at hpesdbh> writes:
"I've seen it said that the specialty grains (dark and crystal) don't need
"to be added during mashing - they can wait until the boil.

This is true to a certain extent.  The reasons vary with the grain
being used.  For example, crystal malts have already been mashed for
you by the maltster, which is why they are sweet when you get them.
There are no starches or enzymes left in them.  Black malts such as
chocolate, black patent, and roast barley, haven't got any starches,
sugars, or enzymes left.  So they don't need the starch to sugar
conversion that is the main purpose of mashing.

But boiling isn't the best treatment for grains, because with the
higher temperature, other chemistry starts to leak out, such as tanins
and oils.

"I've also
"seen it said that the dark grains contribute to a proper pH level during
"the mash. Does anyone have any facts to share on this subject?

If your water is alkaline because of carbonates, your mash may not get
acidic enough for the enzymes to do their jobs.  This is the problem
early Munich brewers faced.  But darkly roasted malts are acidic on
their own and can eat up the buffering power of the carbonate water.
This is why Dunkel is the daily beer of Munich.

Hardness, per se, hasn't got much to do with it.  It just so happens
that that is how brewers used to determine what kind of water they had,
and it is (apparently) easier to explain it this way.  What is
important is the acidity of the mash--it should be in the low 5s, or
else the enzymes don't perform well.  Brewers have resorted to all
kinds of tricks to get there, and dark malt is just one of them.

"I'd also be interested in hearing about time/temperature profiles that
"people think are good or bad.

Good or bad for what purpose?

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 11:14:01 MST
From: rdg at hpfcmi
Subject: more on finings
Full-Name: 	Rob Gardner	

> 	2) My understanding of the use of gelatine as a fining agent
> 	is that it works in a purely mechanical fashion to remove the
> 	yeast from the liquid.  Just how complete is this removal?  
> 	Essentially, what I'm interested in is if I'm going to have
> 	any problem bottle conditioning my beer if I add gelatine 24
> 	hours prior to racking them.

My understanding is that the fining process is more a "chemical" one
than mechanical. In particular, haze and particulates are attracted to
the finings, which have an electrically opposite charge, then the finings
settle out. Also, most sources I have seen recommend adding finings
much firther in advance than 1 day. Byron Burch recommends at least
10 days for settling finings. Also, the finings are usually meant to
remove stuff that causes hazy beer, like proteins, etc. They will not
remove all your yeast, so relax.

Rob

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Date: 17 Jan 89 08:38:37 PST (Tue)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: All grains, trouble, etc

In yesterday's posting, Andy Newman asks several questions, 

My local brew supplies
        store claims that "it's not worth the trouble...the beer
        kits are much better these days"...even if he's being
...
The local brew shop is full of balogney (spell?).  Nothing matches the flavor
and body of freshly mashed grain.  However, as an almost-as-good substitute,
some brew suppliers sell bulk extract from Great Britain.  Steinbart's of
Portland, OR  sells excellent bulk extract (light, amber, dark) in 7# jars
for about $7.  With this much extract, one can do double malting, and obtain
a brew nearly as good as fresh mashed.  If anyone is interested, Steinbart's
ships UPS to anywhere in North America, and the prices are reasonable.  I can
post an address if there is sufficient interest.  They have a fairly extensive
mail-order catalog.

Andy also asks:
 a) What equipment should I buy?  What's mandatory,
                what's nice to have, and what's a total waste of
                money?

Here, I suggest getting a copy of Charlie Papazain's book "The Complete Joy
of Home Brewing," which you can order from a bookstore.  The next question:

 b) What is the relative cost of, say, pale malt
                versus canned malte extract and DME?  My supplier
                charges about 8 dollars for a can of low-brow
                extract (3.3-3.5 pounds) and the same 8 dollars for
                4 pounds of DME.  He doesn't stock quantities of
                unconverted malt.

Here again, the Steinbart extract can be competitive with fresh grain malt.  To
repeat my former comment, try Steinbart's for a more complete offering of products.

Finally, Dave Hollenbeck asks about adding specialty grain during the mash or
during boil.

Because crystal and roast malt don't undergo starch conversion, they can wait
for the boil, and be removed just prior to full boil.  Their contribution will 
not be compromized.

[Comments are welcome, and all disclaimers apply.]  Happy brewing.

florianb at tekred.tek.com

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 11:24:53 PST
From: dsbaer at Sun.COM (David Baer)
Subject: Mashing

I just mashed a batch of Muchener this weekend
and thought I'd share some of my techniques.

First the equipment I find necessary:

1) The obvious spoon, scale, hydrometer,
   floating thermometer, primary, secondary, 
   and large boiling pot.  I use a 33qt monster
   pot that takes about 45 minutes to boil on
   my electric stove.

2) I also use a 20 liter water cooler/dispenser to 
   sparge. I have modified the spigot so that it
   has a valve that regulates the flow of liquid and
   doesn't require any hands once it is set.  I have a    
   stainless steel colander as the false bottom.

I have used a couple of different processes:

1) I heat up water to 180 degrees F (1.25 qts/lb of grain)
and put it in  the 20 liter cooler. I then very thoroughly stir
in the grain ,and let it sit for 1 hour. This is called single-temperature
infusion mashing and requires modified grains like American
Klages.  The ideal temperature for the mash would be 
between 150 and 158.  I find 180 gets me at the higher end
of the temperature range. Adding a little water to adjust
temperature is the best way to get exactly where you
want to be. The higher the temperature the more
dextrinous the wort (it will have more body and sweetness)
the lower the temperature, the more fermentable sugar
produced.  At any temperture in this range, complete sugar
conversion should take place within 1 to 1.5 hours.
I test  the conversion with Iodine and if alls well, 
I commence the sparge.  I add 4-5 gallons
of hot (170 degree) water to the cooler, very slowly
and carefully. It usually takes a good hour to sparge.
I collect the run off in the moster pot and begin
my boil.  From here there is little difference between
mashing and extract brewing, you boil, you add hops,
you add, yeast, you age, you bottle, you drink.

2) The other process is step mashing and is done on
the stove top.  I add 1.25 quarts of water/lb of grain,
to my monster pot and heat to 100 degrees F.
I add the grain and stir it up real good.  Then I
heat it up (on med) stirring constantly until it
reaches about 125 degrees F.  I let it sit about 30 min.
This is the protien rest.  Again I heat up  the mash stirring 
constantly. This time to the conversion temperature- between 150 and
158.  I like to transfer to my 20 liter cooler at this
time and let it sit for 1 hour, but you could leave it on the
stove as long as you maintain the 150-158 range.
Then I follow the same testing and sparging procedure as for 
infusion mashing.

This is a very general outline but it basically works for me.
I have made several successful batches using both methods. I really
feel like a homemade kind of guy watching the sparge run clear. I 
also truly think mashing makes better beer.  I think the ultimate control
and the variables challenge me and keep me brewing better and better
beer.  For a good discussion of mashing "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing"
by Papazian is a quality text, also "Grains into Beer" by Scotty Morgan
outlines the single temperature mash very clearly.  Books are
helpful, but hands-on experience will teach you best.   

Good luck to all you potential mashers,
and hope this simple outline serves to
motivate you to brew a great beer.

Dave Baer

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 13:54:47 CDT
From: Jeff Miller <jmiller at unix.eta.com>
Subject: ?????

I have a couple disertations here about my opinions on glass fermenters
and ways to handle the fermenters to deal with slurry stir up.  The second
disertation has to do with the various questions asked about mashing and
include comments on what I think are needed for a mashing experience,
comments on boiling grains, and a final remark on time/temperature profiles.
Sorry to be so long winded but maybe thats becoming my trade mark.

Fermenters:
	I use glass instead of plastic because I am paranoid about the
	potential for scratching the plastic and ending up with a bad
	batch because some nasty bacteria liked the scratch.  I don't
	like glass because of its weight, ease of breakage, and extreme
	sensitivity to temperatures.  The good things about glass is
	that I think its a lot easier to clean and of course more
	resistent to scratches.

	To answer Andy's question about not stirring up yeast when he
	tries to siphon the beer out, first I would say relax and not
	to worry about it to much.  I use the blow tube siphon starting
	technique with my glass carbouys.  I usually just set on a
	high enough surface toward the end of the ferment and then just
	siphon out without having to move anything.  I noticed an add
	in Zymurgy for a fermenting system that appears to stand upside
	down.  It has an air inlet (doubles as a blow off during fermentation)
	and a drain in the 2 hole stopper for the carbouy.  I liked the
	idea so much that I made one for my carbouys but I haven't had
	a chance to really use it yet.  Anyway, I like these methods but
	I'm not sure how you would adapt them to your tight sealing
	plastic fermenter.

Mashing:
	If you want to do mashing you had better have a supplier that will
	grind grain for you or you better have access to a grain mill.  It
	isn't bad to grind up to 3# of grain to flavor a malt extract brew
	but it would be a real mess to grind enough grain for a 5 gallon
	all-grain brew with a bottle or rolling pin.

	You will also need to have a method for getting your grain out of
	the mash.  You could try putting all the grain in a bag but I would
	bet that you will run into problems when you use lots of grain.  The
	lauter-tun in JOHB is cheap and simple to make and it works great
	for me.  I have also noticed sparging bags at Semplex and they might
	also work well.

	If you don't have one allready, you will want a thermometer so that
	you can watch the mashing temp.  This may not be absolutly necessary
	since you could always brew using the addition of boiling water
	(again, go study JOHB, it gives some good basics).

	Other things that are nice but not necessary might be some iodine
	to tell if starch conversion is complete, a hydrometer to watch
	the mashing as well as measure the final beer alcohol content,
	and some 10 gallon garbage bags to get rid of the grain when your
	done with it.

	As far as the questions about adding specialty grains during the
	boil instead of the mash, I have never heard the storry about them
	adjusting the pH level but it would be nice to hear from anybody
	else that has heard this.  The bad news is that I don't think you
	really want to add grain to boiling water.  Grain conversion will
	stop at about 170F and if you boil the grain what you will end up
	with is a grainy taste with no conversion of the starches.  Some
	may argue that there is little conversion to be done on some of
	the more highly roasted grains but I would still preach staying
	away from tossing them in during the boil.

	I second Dave's query about time/temperature profiles.  I have
	tried a number of methods and lots of times I ended up with a
	starch conversion that wasn't complete.  The best success that I
	have ever had was with a tripple decoction mash that I hoped would
	simulate the PU mashing curves (there was an article in New Brewer
	awhile back that had a graph of it).  The mash started at a really
	low temp (maybe as low as 90F) ans slowly worked up in three jumps.
	I got complete conversion and a good light bodied beer that was high
	in alcohol.  I'll have to look at the notes tonight to get the exact
	conversion times.  The big problem with this one was the time it
	took to do.

Jeff

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 11:12:08 EST
From: uiucdcs!rayssdb.RAY.COM!iws at hplabs.HP.COM (Ihor W. Slabicky)
Subject: the all-malt vs. finings

	
	HOMEBREW Digest #51      Mon 16 January 1989
	
	From: rdg at hpfcmi
	Subject: Fish bladders, seaweed, etc
	Full-Name: 	Rob Gardner	
	
	The process called fining is a good one to experiment with, but I
	think you'll find that you can make very clear beers without it.
	...
	                          In all seriousness though, I would consider
	any fining agent to violate the "all-malt" creed, and its use is only
	to correct faults, and not to be put into your all-malt homebrew.
	
I agree with Rob's posting and am surprised to see finings mentioned here.
I thought that all malt meant just that (and implied the Reinheitsgebot (sp?)
purity).   How much of the gelatin (or other finings) stay in the brew even
after it percipitates all the yeast?  How do the big boys over in Germany
or even the microbrewers here in USA do it?  I'd think you'd want to keep
that stuff out of your brew.

On another note, root beers.  I have made a couple of batches of root beer
soda (non-alcoholic) using the root beer extracts that you buy (Hire's and
some McCormick's) and using their directions on the packages.  The first
batch came out fine, but a bit to much yeast flavor for me and also too
sweet.  The next batch was made with less yeast and less sugar which
resulted in a better flavor.  However, others who tried it said there was
no yeast taste at all.  I bottled into Grolsch bottles and lost one or two
bottles each time - a leak around the rubber stopper or, once, a bottle
cracked.  These bottle failures were probably due to the sterilization 
technique - place the bottles in a large pot filled with water and boil
them.  Next time I'll try the methods spoken of here:  clean scrubbing
and then washing in a dilute bleach solution followed by a clean water
rinse and bottling.

Ihor

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 13:58:45 EST
From: rogerl at Think.COM
Subject: primary fermentors, first time mashing etcetera

Andy Newman writes: Subject: Errata >1) I currently use those large
(~7 gallon) plastic lidded >buckets as primary fermenters.  While they
are generally >adequate, the lids are damnably hard to remove and
install >without shaking the brew around a lot...  I agree they aren't
the easiest to use.  This is the same one I have.  If you have ever
tried to open joint compond buckets, the techinque for opening these
primary fermentors is the same.  This does not cause the bucket to
jiggle around to much.  Put the bucket on the floor or other
comfortable working heigth which is solid.  Place the palms of your
hands on the lid with your fingers over the edge.  Keep the hands next
to each other.  Hook your finger tips under the lid as best you can.
And pry a small section of the lid off by pulling up with the fingers
while pushing down with the palms.  Move around the lid about 6"
repeat the pry.  Repeat the pry/move until the lid peels off easily.

There are more expensive plastic fermentors with screw lids.  There
are glass carboys.  The carboy options seems to be the most popular
option.  Blow off tubes are easy to install, they double as secondary
fermentors, etcetera etcetera etcetera.  There are the old soda
fountain cans, refered to as 'cornielus' (spelling?) cans.  The 1988
special edition of Zumurgy has a discussion about using these hummers.
The cornielus can looks like a real interesting option if you don't
have to pay big bucks for the cans.

>3) (Big question)  I've recently become interested in trying
>my own mashing....My local brew supplies store claims that "it's not
>worth the trouble...
>From what I've experienced it is worth the trouble.  That is why I
tried this for the first time myself this past weekend.  

>a) What equipment should I buy?
I didn't buy a thing.  Since I was using only a couple of pounds of
grain I mashed in a 2 gal. stock pot.  I created a lauter-tun with a
linen towel, sterilized in bleach, and a large colander.  Sparge water
was heated in a canning kettle, that we have for canning of all
things.  Wort chilling was done in a sink of ice water.  I know I
lacked the tincture of iodine, to test for conversion, so I didn't
worry and gave it a go anyway.  The product of the mashing was sweet
and it has seemed to improve the wort (at least at this stage) nicely.
TCJOHB has a section on trying partial grain brewing.  This is where I
got my guidelines from.

>b) What is the relative cost...
>From what I can determine from the catalogs I get, there is a price
advantage to all grain brewing.  The delta difference varies dependent
on what you buy, how much you use and the completeness of your mashing
process.  My calculations seem to say you can save from nothing to
over half by using all grain.  But then when you get into it this far
you are also increasing the equipment costs, so the break even point
changes yet again.  The advice I was given was to let your personal
taste and interest level determine whether or not to go to grains not
the wallet.

>4) I'm trying to track down a recipe for Oatmeal stout...
Count me in to!

Next:
Rob Gardner writes:
>The process called fining is a good one to experiment with, but I
>think you'll find that you can make very clear beers without it.
CAN'T AGREE MORE!  I haven't used finings yet and even the lighter
beers are clear.  Keep the siphon hose out of the sediment and try
chilling before bottling.
>You should also know that gelatin is made from ground-up dead animals, so
>your vegetarian friends might not want to drink your beer ;-) Other
>fining agents include egg white, fish bladder extract, dirt, and
>mashed up seaweed. I wonder who first got the idea that these things
>could improve their beer!....
It must have been a frustrated wizard or a drop out from the 'Merlin
School of Magic'.  He probably tried eye of nuit, ear of bat and
scorpion toes with no success.(Thank goodness)

All seriousness aside.
Roger (over) Locniskar

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 13:30:31 EST
From: hplabs!harvard!ima!wang7!klm
Subject: Request Help on fixing beer

I brewed a batch of Bock beer two weekends ago.  It is currently lagering
at about 40 to 45 degrees F.  After primary fermentation was complete, and
I racked it into secondary, I took a sample for a hydrometer reading and
taste testing.

I goofed.  I went way overboard with the dark grains.  The beer is extremely
dry and has a strong roasted flavor.  It actually overpowers the hops
somewhat.  I used a total of about 3 oz. of Hallertauer.

What I'm thinking of doing is adding a little bit of unfermentable sugar
to my priming krausen to sweeten the beer slightly and add a touch more
body.  Also, boil in some more hops when I cook the wort that I will use
as my krausen.  (Yes, I am experimenting with krausening.  I will post
results in a few brewings.)

Ok, so how much (or little) Dextrin powder do I want to add to 5 gallons
to keep this beer from being too bitter?

Anybody ever done this before?  I'm open to suggestions.  I won't be
bottling this for about 3 weeks or so, so send those replies!

Kevin McBride
McBeer Brewery
..!ima!wang7!gozer!klm

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 17:40:03 est
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: pale malt

Andy Newman <NEWMAN at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu> writes:
>		b) What is the relative cost of, say, pale malt

A 50 pound bag of 6 row pale malt costs me $33.08 with tax at my
local shop.

--Pete Soper

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 17:59:20 est
From: fwb at demon.siemens.com (Frederic W. Brehm)
Subject: temperature/time, brew shop, San Diego visit

My brother-in-law (Thanks, Steve) sent me the ingredients for a batch of
beer as a Christmas present.  He sent two cans of extract, one of "Best
Bitter" and another malt (sorry, I forgot the brand names), a package of
hops, a package of Edme yeast, and some miscellaneous supplies and books.
I have tracked down all the rest of the supplies and will brew my first
batch this weekend.  I still need a bottle capper and there is no listing
for homebrew or wine making in the local telephone books, so my first
question is:

    Can anyone recommend a good brew shop somewhere in the Philadelphia/New
    York area?  There must be one around here somewhere!  My dad's wine
    shop is in near Harrisburg, but that's a little too far for casual
    visits.

The location in my basement where I plan to put the beer to ferment varies
between 60 and 62 degrees.  This is at the lower end of the temperature
range for an ale (according to TCJoHB).  My next question is

    At this temperature, is it likely to take closer to three weeks than to
    two weeks before it is ready to bottle?  I realize that fermentation
    times vary, but what is the expected time?

I am counting on three weeks because I will be in San Diego from January 29
through February 6.  My mother will be taking care of my kids (what a great
Grandma!)  but I don't think she's interested in bottling my beer.

So, since I will be in San Diego for a few days of work, and a few days of
vacation with my wife and without the kids, my next question is (can you
guess)

    Are there any interesting brewpubs or local brews to try while we are
    in San Diego?

Thanks for your patience.

Fred
--
Frederic W. Brehm	Siemens Corporate Research	Princeton, NJ
fwb at demon.siemens.com	-or-	...!princeton!siemens!demon!fwb

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Date: Tue, 17 Jan 89 18:22:04 PST
From: meyer at tcville.hac.com (Mike Meyer)
Subject: closed fermentation vs. open

I've been thinking about trying a closed fermentation on my next batch of beer, but I have a few questions about it.   

>From my understanding, one boils their wort normally, then strains the wort
directly (via sanitized strainer and funnel) into a carboy containing 2 or 3
gallons of (Question 1: cold or room temperature) water.  They then seal it
with a sanitized stopper until the wort is at pitching temperature ( a process
which can be helped along by using cold water in the carboy, provided the
thermal shock won't screw it up).  When the wort is at pitching temperature,
and the  yeast starter ready enough, the yeast is added to the carboy, and
a stopper with blowoff hose added (This blowoff hose can have its other end 
submerged in a pail of water, to minimize outside air contact until the 
positive pressure is attained, right?).  Once the bulk of icky stuff is blown
off, a regular fermentation lock replaces the blowoff hose.

More questions:  
2) What causes thermal shock and how can I be absolutely sure to avoid it -- I
have this abnormal fear of my carboy breaking and spewing 5 gallons of sticky
wort all over the kitchen floor.

3) What is the best way of monitoring the temperature of the wort in the 
closed carboy before pitching, or should I just start my yeast starter, let
it work overnight, pitch it the next morning , and not worry? 

4) Should I siphon into another sanitized carboy after two or three days, or
would the increased risk of infection from the siphoning process negate any
gain?  Is it a better idea to rack into another carboy after a week instead?

5) Assuming that my existing sanitation procedures are adequate, will using 
the blowoff/ closed fermenter gain me anything besides gross tubing and more
carboy cleanup?
[it just so happens that I am having some infection problems,
but I haven't been able to pin down the source, except to say that my last
batch exhibited symptoms in EVERY bottle (i.e. not a bottle sanitation problem),
and that the procedures I use for wort cooling, pitching, etc. haven't given
me serious problems in the past. (minor problems, yes, but not since I gave
up Sodium Metabisulfate as a sanitizer, and started using bleach)  My hoses
have recently been replaced, and I only have a few small scratches in my
plastic fermenter.  Can't remember offhand what brand of yeast I was using,
but intend to look it up.  ]

6) Since the blowoff hose doesn't touch the beer, I can use one of my older
retired hoses, right?  (Or can the blowoff hose back-up into the carboy?)

So many questions, eh?  I know, it looks like I have this phobia or something, 
but I'm just interested in picking the brains of the list, especially those
who have used both methods and either experienced or not experienced a quantum
leap in the quality of their beer.  It seems that it can take a lot of the
worry out of my beermaking, provided my pitching procedure and or yeast 
isn't the culprit.

BTW, has anybody ever experienced a bacterial infection that made their beer
slightly psychoactive?  I had this one batch that was a lobotomy-in-a-bottle
(or more accurately, half-a-bottle), and the alcohol content was not the 
culprit (3.6%).  In the interest of science :-), my roommate has been trying
to reculture the yeast from the remaining bottles...  If he succeeds, someone
will have to make it illegal.

Another BTW,  I forgot to tell you how my batch of Toad Spit Stout came out.
It's really good stuff -- in my book, the recipe yields a drink very, very
similar to Guinness, only missing the slight bite that we all know comes from
Guinness adding the 3% pasteurized sour beer.  (Betcha I could duplicate that
at home, too...)  Good recipe, and far simpler than the 'Super Stout' recipe
from M.R. Reese's 'Better Beer and How To Brew It."  That recipe, which we
dubbed 'Vicious', yields something that is much more like a porter, as it uses
black patent malt rather than roasted barley.  It also yielded about an inch
of trub and sediment at the bottom of each bottle. Incredible sludge, and I
could go for a glass right now...

...think I will, in fact. See ya.

Mike Meyer
meyer at tcville.HAC.COM

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