---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  AHA Conference rumors (synchro!chuck)
  Automatic reply from MAILWATCH ("VAX MAILWATCH E1.95")
  Yeast in mead (UKNALIS)
  Re: distilled power drinks (Marc Rouleau)
  European requests... (814)867-2849" <BLI at PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
  re: Rolling Rock and aftertastes (olson)
  Re: Distillation (William Mayne)
  Re: Brewers caramel.... (Eric Pepke)
  RE:re: Germany (S_KOZA1)
  distilled power drinks (Arun Welch)
  too much sugar (stevef)
  re making diacetyl (bill crick) (Chip Hitchcock)
  Re: Return of the Green Bubbles (KOHR)
  AHA Judging (John Polstra)
  Keg equipment (sbsgrad)
  Re: AHA Judging (Steve Dempsey)
  another round on protein (Chip Hitchcock)
  brewers caramel (Rusty Davis (guest))
  Yeast repitching & AHA bashing (a little long) (Jay Hersh)
  Yeast cycling (krweiss)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
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[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue Oct 16 12:08:30 1990
From: bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: AHA Conference rumors

GOOD NEWS:

It seems that the AHA may have finally seen the light, and are considering 
regional elimination rounds for the national competition.  In the past, the 
first round was performed in Denver/Boulder and was characterized as a 
crap-shoot due to the sub-mediocre local judges.  Rumor has it that there will 
be a west coast elimination somewhere in California, central region 
elimination in Colorado, and east coast elimination in Boston.  If this pans 
out, the first round judging should improve substantially, especially in the 
west and east.  Lets keep our fingers crossed.  I have already told our Board 
of Advisors representative that I would be willing to help organize the Boston 
competition.  

BAD NEWS:

Well the latest rumor about the 1991 AHA National Conference is not good.  It 
seems that for whatever reason, the AHA and Boston University were unable to 
come to an agreement, so the conference will not be held in Boston.  Instead 
it will be held in Manchester, New Hampshire.  Manchester is best known for 
its total lack of homebrewers, breweries, brewpubs, or even decent bars, and 
is over an hour away from anything interesting in New England (unless I'm
driving).  

Why they picked Manchester is a total mystery.  In any case it will probably 
be a repeat of the lackluster Estes Park conference, but without the beautiful 
scenery as an added incentive.  It is my guess that they will be lucky to get 
100 attendees.  Given the high cost of attending the conference, I have not
found any Boston area homebrewers willing to make the drive, so I don't know
how they hope to attract homebrewers from outside New England.  This is
particulary frustrating since several Wort Processors offered to help the AHA
find a Boston site, but they continue to insist on doing everything themselves
from Boulder.

Some Wort Processors have discussed the idea of putting on some kind of event
in Boston as an alternative the the AHA conference, but so far its just lips
flapping in the breeze.

 - Chuck Cox (uunet!bose!synchro!chuck) - Hopped/Up Racing Team -


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 05:33:24 EDT
From: "VAX MAILWATCH E1.95" <needle at vaxwrk.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Automatic reply from MAILWATCH

I'm on vacation from 10/11/90 until 11/5/90.  Please direct any urgent issues
to my manager, Michele O'Leary, at VAXWRK::OLEARY.

Jeff

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Date:         Wed, 17 Oct 90 08:21:08 EDT
From: UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Yeast in mead


I had a couple of gallons of mead perking away VERY slowly for a month and
this past weekend they took off and started bubbling like a beer primary
fermentation.  The yeast is Red Star Pasteur Champagne, which I've had no
problems or bad results with in the past.   My question is- was the ferm-
entation inhibited by something or queued in by some seasonal change?  My
grandmother used to say don't make bread on rainy days...  Has anyone else
in the east had any unusual fermentation situations recently?

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 1990 09:02:32 EDT
From: Marc Rouleau <mer6g at virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: distilled power drinks

On Oct 15, 10:06, florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com wrote:
>                                         How, in the name of science,
> can methanol be produced from the distillation of ethanol-containing
> fermented beverages?

The story I've heard is that if you cook it over a wood fire bits
of wood (perhaps from green wood popping or maybe from smoke) can
end up in the distillation pot and get distilled.  Methanol comes
from wood.

    -- Marc

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Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 90 09:43 EDT
From: "JEFF BRENDLE S:(814)867-2849" <BLI at PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: European requests...

I was wondering if any of the people reading the Digest had any experience in
Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany...) and especially Leeds, UK.  My
best friend is going to be over there for a semester of studies abroad in Civil
Engineering and plans on traveling via rail to as many places as possible until
he has to come back home.  So if you can make any suggestions about where to go
and what to do, with emphasis on what to drink naturally, I'd appreciate it!
He assures me the pubs will be visited as often as he can...any good pub ales I
can tell him about?  Hope I can last until Spring Break when I go over to visit
...somehow I think the idea of a british ale in a real pub MIGHT get to me....
:-)

Thanks for the help, gang!!



Jeff.

PSU CAC Student Operator and Sr. Consultant


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 10:20:21 EDT
From: olson at antares.cs.virginia.edu
Subject: re: Rolling Rock and aftertastes



in HBD 519, Ray Mrohs writes:
>I made the mistake of drinking a bottle
>of Rolling Rock right after an IPA and it tasted like I just bit into an
>ear of corn.  In fact, I was so repulsed by this phenomenon that I haven't
>bought Rolling Rock since.  Maybe that's a good thing (?).  BTW - we were
>buying Rolling Rock because it's supposed to be the purest beer available
>from any commercial US brewery - any opinions and/or facts regarding this?

I don't know about purity, but there's one terrific reason for buying
RR at our local high-volume supplier:  it comes in longnecks with
- --> silk-screened <-- labels.  I *hate* soaking and peeling labels, so
the RR bottles are terrific.  I haven't actually had to drink any yet,
I'm still working on empties left over from a friend's wedding.  Not
that RR is terrible beer, I'd drink it in preference to lots of other
dreck.  That "I just bit into a fistful of Fritos(tm)" flavor is
present in other commercial beers too, I just can't remember which ones.
Maybe Busch, or Miller Draft?

Ray's posting also brings up the interesting question of after-taste 
interactions.  In the Bad Old Days (before I discovered that you can't
clean scratched primaries) I brewed what I now realize were some badly
contaminated batches.  They were marginally drinkable, so I drank them,
though now that I know better I'd pour out anything that came up with
such serious flaws.  One night I drank one of those, then cracked
a Juengling Chesterfield.  The first mouthful of the Chesterfield
tasted horrible, like burnt plastic or dead skunk or something (sorry
I don't know the fancy judging terms.)  So did the second and third,
in fact they tasted much worse than the contaminated homebrew, so 
I decided the commercial beer had gone bad and trashed it.  Some
nights later, though, I stole a taste of a Chesterfield my wife
was drinking -- tasted fine -- then drank one of my homebrews, then
stole another sip of Chesterfield.  Whammo, the skunk flavor was
back, even though the *same bottle* had tasted fine 10 minutes 
previously.  What's remarkable is how persistent the off-flavor
interaction was;  the skunk taste stayed with me for about 30 minutes
after I'd finished the homebrew.  

Has anyone had similar experiences with the flavor of one beer 
radically modifying the flavor of another tasted later?  Any idea
what causes these interactions?  I can imagine that it might be
disastrous for beer judges.  The skunk flavor was completely solid
and convincing -- I had no idea during that first experience that 
it could be the result of an aftertaste.  Do judges do anything to
clean out their tasting apparatus between samples?

yours for uncontaminated beer,
- --Tom Olson

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 10:26:00 -0400
From: William Mayne <mayne at nu.cs.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Distillation

>From: cjh%vallance.eng.ileaf.com at hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chip Hitchcock)
>
>> From: David Coombs <coombs at cs.rochester.edu>
>> Why do the feds still want to prevent individuals from distilling
>> things, while commercial distilleries are now permitted?
>
>   For the last ~200 years, the federal government has gotten some portion of
>its revenues from taxes on alcoholic beverages...
>   I would guess that the original assumption was that beer, cider, and even
>wine would be widely brewed for home use or occasional barter (sometimes
>                                                              ^^^^^^^^^^
>fermented fluids were the only safe thing to drink), while stills (needing
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>more effort & equipment) would produce liquor for sale...
 
I think your analysis of why distilling is illegal when brewing and
winemaking are not is correct. But I question this business about
alcoholic drinks being the only safe thing to drink. I have heard it
many times, mostly from tee-totaler fundamentalists trying to explain
the embarrassing fact that almost everyone in the Bible drank wine,
Jesus turned water into wine, etc. I am surprised to hear it from
(I assume) a fellow drinker. Any alcoholic drink, especially one as
strong as wine, causes the body to use more water than the drink
itself provides. (This has been discussed at great length under the
subject of hangovers in rec.food.drink.) There is no way one can
live by substituting wine for unsafe but nonalcoholic drinks. I
expect the same would be true of beer, though I have never tried it.

>... (Certainly there have also been
>moral arguments, but it started with money.)

Certainly money has been and is an issue, but moral arguments have
been important, and sometimes primary. Prohibition was certainly
not enacted to increase government revenue. Quite the opposite,
it took away a source of revenue by making it illegal. Also
counties which ban alcohol don't get economic benefit from it.
They loose tax revenue not only from sales of alcohol, but 
other purchases made outside their jurisdiction by drinkers
who have to cross the county line to buy beer.

I don't defend this. Actually I object more to governments trying
to legislate morality than to raising tax revenues. Like everyone,
I'd prefer that they tax somebody else's vice, but I recognize
this isn't always possible.

One more consideration, besides those you quite correctly bring up:
Since distilling requires more effort and equipment there have always
been more home brewers and wine makers than distillers, hence a
larger constituency to overcome the moralists and would be revenuers.

Bill Mayne
mayne at nu.cs.fsu.edu

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Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 1990 11:04:50 EDT
From: PEPKE at scri1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Re: Brewers caramel....

Ralph L McCallister asks about brewer's caramel.  Brewer's caramel is the 
British name for what is called "caramel coloring" in the United States.
It is burnt sugar in solution and is used to make the beer darker.  It
is not a significant source of yeast nutrients and doesn't really do much
for the flavor.  You can leave it out, but if you want to follow the recipe,
search specialty shops and old drugstores for bottles of caramel coloring.

Eric Pepke                                     INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  MFENET:   pepke at fsu
Florida State University                       SPAN:     scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052                     BITNET:   pepke at fsu

Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.


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Date:     Wed, 17 Oct 90 11:04 EST
From: <S_KOZA1%UNHH.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject:  RE:re: Germany

        Here's my 20 millidollars worth on AHA judging. I'd agree w/ Chuck
that although the system isn't perfect the judges do the best that they can.
The thing that Chuck forgot to mention, however, is that all palates and
nostrils are not created equally. Therefore, since the AHA has no standard-
ized tasting exams there will be a # of judges who although they know the
rules and think they know what a beer is supposed to taste like but do not
have the physical abilty to discern faint or muted nuances.
        This doesn't mean that there is no value to the homebrewer in entering
their libations in contests. These contests afford the entrant a non-partial
evaluation of their brewing technique. That is you'll find out if there is
something seriously wrong with your beers. Beyond that the score total means
very little since they are subject to the judges usually predisposed likes
and dislikes. In other words I'm more interested in the comments than the
scoring.


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%                                                                          %
%       88888888                                            88888888       %
%      8888888888           Stephan M. Koza                8888888888      %
%   /XX| | | | 888          Chemistry Dept. UNH           888 | | | |XX\   %
%  //  | | | | |8           Durham, NH 03824               8| | | | |  \\  %
% ((   | | | | |                                            | | | | |   )) %
%  \\  | | | | |          Bitnet: S_KOZA1 at UNHH              | | | | |  //  %
%   \XX| | | | |                                            | | | | |XX/   %
%     /XXXXXXXXX\                                          /XXXXXXXXX\     %
%                                                                          %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 11:03:24 -0400
From: Arun Welch <welch at cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: distilled power drinks

> How, in the name of science,
>can methanol be produced from the distillation of ethanol-containing
>fermented beverages?

Some fermentations produce both, but the methanol blows off. The
problem is that though methanol and ethanol have different boiling
points, if sufficient care isn't taken in distilling, the end result
has a mixture of the two. In India, where I grew up, there are a
number of reports every year of people being blinded/killed by
drinking improperly distilled arak, a derivative of fermented rice.
Not surprising, since all the stills I've seen consisted of a large
earthen pot on the stove, a short piece of pipe, and a small pot
half-submerged in a tub of water, with the distiller pouring water
over the pot, cooling then being obtained from evaporation. No
temperature controls, etc. It's pretty easy to blow it, given such conditions.

...arun
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University
welch at cis.ohio-state.edu


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Date: 17 Oct 90 08:14:06 PDT
From: stevef at sidd.SanDiego.NCR.COM
Subject: too much sugar


I just bottled up a couple cases of Boothbay Amber Light last night.  The
only reason I bring this up is to compare it to the last time I made
this beer, which was about a year ago.  The recipe is simply John Bull
hopped amber malt extract, water, sugar and yeast. The first time I made it
I followed the recipe on the can of malt which called for 4 lbs (!)
of corn sugar added to the 3.3 lbs of extract. The result was a
sugary, flat beer. The flatness was probably a result of the yeast
being totally spent (I only used one packet) but it seems clear
to me that 4 lbs is just too much of any ingredient that doesn't
add much in the way of character to the beer.

This time I used only one lb of sugar and the result, so far, is
a very nice, hoppy brew. So my question is, why do these kits call
for so much sugar? My potential alcohol from this last run was only
about 3% (that's why I dubbed it a light beer) but I'm not in this
to get drunk.

This batch was also incredibly clear. Maybe I was charmed but when
I racked the beer from the secondary into a bucket for bottling, I
didn't transfer any (well hardly any) of the sediment. The beer was
clear in the bottles almost immediately. Now I'm just hoping, but not
worrying, that it carbonates.


steve fanshier
stevef at sidd.sandiego.ncr.com


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 11:19:59 EDT
From: cjh at vallance.eng.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: re making diacetyl (bill crick)

 	...Then put finings in at teh end of promary fermentation...
What species? Irish Moss? (doesn't that have to be boiled?) Polyclar?
(for proteins?) ?? ?


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 12:04:15 EST
From: KOHR at LL.LL.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Return of the Green Bubbles

(This is in regard to the discussion of James Hensley's beer being
attacked by some kind of mold.)

My most recent batch, a variation of the "Dark Sleep Stout" recipe in
Papazian's CJOHB, had a mild infection problem.  I think I left it
in the primary too long, so that when I moved it to the secondary,
the fermentation was nearly complete.  Exposure to air during
racking put enough bacteria (or some kind of bug) into it that,
in the absence of CO2 from fermentation to blow the bugs off (or at
least starve them of oxygen), the bugs got a foothold.

A greasy, whitish "oil slick" appeared on the top of the wort, and
a slight off smell could be discerned in the fermentation unit.  Not
one to waste precious brew unnecessarily, I decided to try to fight the
bugs rather than throw out the batch.  I put in 1/4 cup corn sugar to
restart the fermentation in the secondary, then waited a few days for
the CO2 bubbles to appear.  The growth of the "oil slick" stopped, and
the off smell disappeared.  I bottled a few days after that, figuring
the bugs had mostly bought the farm.  That batch is now fully aged, and
tastes just fine.  No one who has sampled it has gotten sick from it,
so it appears that my bug-fighting strategy worked.

I would recommend doing this only at the very earliest stages of
infection; I bet that if you let the mold or whatever grow much
further, damage to the batch's taste will be noticeable, and maybe
the bugs will even be able to make you sick.

I think I heard about this trick of restarting fermentation from somebody
on this digest, but I can't remember for sure at the moment.

David R. Kohr    M.I.T. Lincoln Laboratory    Group 45 ("Radars 'R' Us")
        email: KOHR at LL.LL.MIT.EDU
        phone: (617)527-3908 (home), (617)981-0775 (work)

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 09:05:48 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: AHA Judging

In HBD #518, bose!synchro!chuck at uunet.UU.NET (Chuck Cox) writes:

> In order to advance through the ranks, judges have to gain experience
> by judging.  Yes, some judges make a career out of judging only ales,
> but you can be assured they are not judging obscure lagers, especially
> at a National competition.  In fact, the AHA makes a token effort at
> using properly experienced judges for some of the more specific styles
> in their National competition, especially for things like British
> Bitter, Lambic, Kolsch, etc.

But in his trip report on the AHA national conference (HBD #450), Chuck
wrote this:

> As usual, judge assignment was a free-for-all (I managed to grab a seat
> at the traditional mead table).  I heard that the first place steam
> beer was actually eliminated from the first round of the nationals, but
> received a bye to the second round by winning best of show in a
> regional.  One could argue that maybe there was something wrong with
> the bottle that went to the national first round, but I think bad
> judging is more likely.  Most competitors consider the national first
> round a total crap-shoot.

Yours in bewilderment,

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 90 16:18:30 GMT
From: sbsgrad%sdphs2.span at Sds.Sdsc.Edu
Subject: Keg equipment

From: "Sparky" <sslade at ucsd.edu> (Steve Slade) 
Date sent:  17-OCT-1990 09:11:07 PT 

Hi all!

The other day I had the good fortune of receiving a free pony keg and tap.
This is a 7.75 US gallon, 30 liter keg made by Miller brewing co.  Since I 
have never owned a keg before, I have naturally ignored all information 
relevent to kegging on this network.  Now, of course, I feel like a fool.  
Could some kind person out there please send me advice on how to use this 
baby for storing homebrew?  Specifically, I wonder if the keg can be 
pressurized with CO2 using the tap that came with it.  The tap is the 
standard type that you would get with a keg from the local liquer store - a 
hand pump and dispensing valve rig that fits over a ball valve assembly 
which is secured to the top of the keg.

All advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Sparky (Steve Slade)

Internet:            sslade at ucsd.edu        UUCP:              ...ucsd!sslade
Bitnet:              sslade at ucsd.bitnet     DECnet/SPAN:       SDPH1::SBSGRAD

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 11:55:27 MST
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu>
Subject: Re: AHA Judging


In HBD #518 Chuck Cox sez:

> Norm Hardy complains that the AHA needs to train beer judges better...
> 
> I assume that you are unhappy about a score you received in a competition. If
> you have a serious complaint, you can tell the AHA/HWBTA judge program about 
> it, simply send a copy of your score sheet(s) to the AHA (the address is in 
> Zymurgy) and explain your problem.  Judges can be reprimanded.  

While it's true that you can go through the `appeal' process, it's not
likely to yield much.  Heck, they may not even be able to identify the
judge, let alone locate him/her.  Many of the judges are obviously not
in the BJCP.

If your beer was given a low score, it's possible that any of the
following occurred:

    - the bottle was not clean (or retained cleaning sol'n residue)
    - caps were not clean
    - bottle was not sealed well
    - your bottle filling equipment was not clean
    - the judge was inexperienced and had no guidance
    - the judge did not take his job seriously
    - the judge had a cold (ability impaired)
    - the judge recently burned his tongue sipping hot coffee :-p
    - your beer was the last in a `flight' and the judge was
      just tired/burned out (or drunk, too much RDWHAH)
    - your beer was just not up to snuff in comparison with others
      in the class for the particular session (flight)
    - your beer was as bad as they say it was :-(

I recently had the opportunity to talk with some of the folks who run
the national competition & BJCP and those were but a few of the comments
they had on entrants' complaints.

> As for training, the judge program provides NO training of any kind.
> Judges are expected to be self-educated.

There is no training per se incorporated with the program.  The AHA *does*
provide training.  I just finished the Fall Beer Evaluation Seminar, a
course designed as an introduction to: the brewing process, ingredients,
styles, and evaluating characteristics of the finished product.  This
included prepared (doctored) samples to exhibit common problems, some
commercial samples of mostly common styles, and a couple of specialty
homebrews.  We judged all the commercial and homebrews using the regular
competition procedures and score sheets.  This *is* judge training.
I'll post more about this in a day or two when I can collect my notes
and include more details.
 
And in #519 Dave Suurballe rebuts:

>I know there were experienced judges at the National Competition.  I know
>some panels were better than others.  My experience there, however, shows
>that Chuck's stated view is not based on reality.  The AHA *is* using
>inexperienced judges in the National Competition.  It makes *no* effort
>to find judges experienced in some of the more specific styles.

I don't recall anyone posting the numbers of entries in the national
this past year: over 2000.  Guess how many judges it takes to evaluate
that many entries?  It's no surprise that they'll take anyone who volunteers
to do judging.  There are just not enough judges.  Next year the judging
will be split between three locations for the first round.  This will help
with the numbers.  The score sheets have also been revised to identify
the judge as: inexperienced/apprentice, recognized, certified, national,
experienced but not part of BJCP, and other.  Also, they plan to go
strictly by the numbers instead of `best 2 of 12 advance to next round'.
This will undoubtedly raise more complaints due to the lack of coordination
between scoring levels.

I must take exception with Dave's last comment.  They *do* want to get
at least one experienced judge on every team and try to do so.  It's
the responsibility of the organizers to make sure this happens but the
sheer size of the national competition is really overwhelming.  Chances
are fair to middlin' that your potentially winning entry can get lost in
the shuffle.

If you want to see the situation improve, become a judge and help recruit
judges who will take their job as seriously as you take your brewing.


        Steve Dempsey,  Center for Computer Assisted Engineering
  Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523    +1 303 491 0630
INET: steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu, dempsey at handel.CS.ColoState.Edu
UUCP: boulder!ccncsu!longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu!steved, ...!ncar!handel!dempsey

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 12:37:56 EDT
From: cjh at vallance.eng.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: another round on protein

   I decided to try for a good protein break after the back-and-forth of the
last few weeks' Digests. I did a half batch of the Double Stout recipe from
Zymurgy:
	8 oz crystal
	3 oz roasted barley
  steep 30 minutes  at  ~150F in a quart of water
  strained, washed, made up liquid to 3 quarts
	1 3.3# Mountmellick stout kit
	8 oz amber dry malt
	1/2 tsp gypsum
  boil 45 minutes; add 1/2 tsp Irish Moss after 15 minutes.
	1/4 oz Fuggles plug (steeped 4 minutes after boil)
  poured the resulting tar over 6 quarts of frozen bottled water (took 1 qt
out of each of 2 1-gallon plastic bottles, froze, cut away plastic) in my
plastic fermenter. This was far too much ice; after 2.5 hours and another 2
quarts of water there was still lots of ice, but the temp was around 42F. I
racked this to warm glass (found only a few hard bits (undissolved dry
extract?) in the bucket) and pitched. Temp was 56F; 6 hours later (60F)
there was an inch of cottony-looking stuff in the bottom of the carboy.

I have several questions about this:
 - How long should you have to wait at how low a temperature for a cold
break?
 - Has anyone tried Miller's recommendation of pitching into near-freezing
wort, waiting ~6 hours, then racking? What was the result? How big a culture
did you pitch?
 - I'm assuming the precipitate is protein. How much of a taste problem am I
likely to get from having the beer sitting on protein (instead of being mixed
with it) for however long I let the primary go? Would it be (havebeen) useful
to rack again as soon as the blowoff subsided?
 - Where/how do proteins cause a problem? Do they have off tastes themselves,
do they decay in the fermenter or bottle, do they react with yeast?

- --Chip Hitchcock (cjh at ileaf.com)

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 11:55:26 PDT
From: rdavis%datsun.llnl.gov at lll-lcc.llnl.gov (Rusty Davis (guest))
Subject: brewers caramel

 
I personally use gravey browning, but make sure it is a type with no
additives (eg. don't use bisto or the like)
 
bst rgrds
Rusty
 
 
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| Russell K. Davis                |                                           |
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Date: 17 Oct 90 15:40:50 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast repitching & AHA bashing (a little long)

To richard whitman: you can just pour the slurry right off the bottom of one 
batch striaght into the next. This usually works fine. As for getting better and
better, I don't know about that. Brewers hire microbiologists to culture and 
maintain yeast purity. From what I understand yeast mutates. I know some 
breweries wash their yeast strains with mild acids as at least one type of 
mutation is weakening of cell walls. Washing with acid kills these mutants. I 
would thus suggest that you not re-pitch too many times. What is too many??
Depends on the yeast strain but I've heard tha Bud tosses theirs after six times
so that should give you a guideline.

AHA Bashing. Yahoo, let em have it. While I'm the last one to say I told you so
(yeah right :>) ) we had a discussion on this net over a year ago where I bashed
on the AHA competition system (though not as elegantly and to the heart of the 
matter as Dave S. has) for its short comings and proposed a tiered competition 
system where rather than the artificial size criterion that now determines judge
experience point awards, a true system of local, regional and national 
competitions in a pyramid setup with winners advancing up the ladder would 
exist. At least a portion of this is now coming into place with the advent next 
year of regional first round competitions to alleviate the total lack of ability
to deal with the number of entries received. (At the GABF a similar attitude is 
evident in the staffing, or generally shortfall thereof in setup and serving 
since the festival relies heavily on volunteers).

Judging still seems pretty haphazard. The pool of available judges is not large 
enough and even those that are in the program have holes in their knowledge. 
Unfortunately it seems that there is no attempt to try to factor this into the 
competition setup if indeed there is a way to do so. My experience at the AHA 
nationals 4 years ago was very similar to what Dave describes so nothing has 
changed there! While I am an active judge I currently have let my AHA membership
lapse and plan to keep things that way until a few things change.

While the board of advisors is a good idea there is no direct member 
representation. The BOA is appointed not elected. I still call for elections for
BOA members. Perhaps elected members might more strongly address such critical 
shortcomings as the competition seems to have. Dave's assertion that the AHA 
National is sloppy and disorganized is pretty much on the mark, though in 
fariness they do have a shoestring staff. Partition of some of the AHA 
responsibilities into a publications branch to continue Zymurgy (which is top 
notch) and a member organization similar to say the ACM or IEEE might do much to
allow each group to focus better on their tasks (i.e magazine publication in 
one, and member development and support in the other).

As for the training of judges local groups have started to take on this 
responsibility. Only about 1/2 of the training can be done on your own from 
reading. The rest needs to be done with palatte training and other hands on 
approaches. Here in New England Steve Stroud and I have done Dr. Beer sessions. 
I began doing these 2-3 years ago. The AHA provided me with a list of substances
to add to doctor beers and left me on my own. Through trial and error and 
continued refinement (with help from people like steve and some associates back 
at RPI) I was able to get this down to a farily useful 2-3 hour session for the 
initial training and (very important) continued refreshing of judges palettes. 
The response so far has been very positive. The drawback is that a few of the 
samples require special equipment and a bit of care, though most can be done 
easily. 

 I don't think bagging the BJCP is the answer. I think strengthening it is.
I am willing to try to help interested individuals set up Dr. Beer seminars in 
their areas and jump start them with our (Steve and I) experiences. If you want 
to foot the bill I'll travel to do these. Again I believe an elected BOA might 
increase pressure to strengthen the BJCP. 

While I still have some fundemental grievances with aspects of the AHA to be 
fair I can't post a blanket condemnation, just my ideas on how to take the 
framework they have begunlnd try to forge a much stronger judge and competition 
system from it.

 - Jay H

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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 14:15:15 -0700
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Yeast cycling

I have a plan. We all know that there's nothing more dangerous than Ken with a 
plan, so let me know if this is a foolish idea...

I've been thinking about re-using my yeast by arranging to brew on the same 
day I have a batch ready to bottle. I'll just cook up my beer, and bottle the 
other batch while the new stuff is cooling off in an ice bath. Then I'll pitch 
the slurry from the bottom of my secondary fermentor, instead of culturing a 
starter from a new packet of yeast.

The only risk I can see here is that if the batch I'm bottling is infected, 
I'll be adding that infection to the new beer. On the other hand, I always 
taste the beer I'm bottling, so I'd pitch a packet of Whitbread's if things 
seemed off.

The advantages are that I would be pitching a *huge* volume of yeast, and I'd 
be saving a few dollars per batch. Of course, if the "nickel a drink" thing 
passes here in CA, a few dollars for two cases of beer is going to seem like 
very small potatoes indeed.

So, what have I missed? Is this plan reasonable?

Sactobeerfest was a nice event. I got to taste some Raspberry Imperial Stout, 
which was a treat for me. This stuff is so far away from my preferred style 
that there's no way I'll ever make it myself, but with some aging it ought to 
be a really nice winter beer. At the risk of losing my well deserved 
reputation for personal modesty, I'll add that my beers received the accolade 
of being "Very beer-like in nature." Awriight! But seriously, I was impressed. 
Out of about 10 beers we tried, there were only two clunkers, and both were 
presented as "Something I made the second time I tried homebrewing..." When I 
compare the average quality of homebrew I made and tasted ten years ago to 
what's being produced now, I am truly amazed at the progress.

Oh yeah, and a retraction of my recent Edme-bash. I tried one of those 4 month 
old ginger beers that caused me such concern. It was pretty good! A little 
overcarbonated, and very very dry, but definitely not a gusher. I'd have to 
conclude that Edme is significantly more attenuative than other yeasts, and 
perhaps ferments out completely a bit more slowly, but there was nothing in 
the taste or level of carbonation to indicate a problem with the yeast. I 
think I'll stay with Wyeast anyway, though.

Ken Weiss
krweiss at ucdavis.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #520, 10/18/90
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