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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Wort chilling (mike_schrempp)
  Apple beer (Shannon Posniewski)
  Re:  Aluminum???? (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  Too much sugar (John DeCarlo)
  Re:  Drinking Fermented Fluids (John DeCarlo)
  Temperature controller, Lager questions (davidson)
  Manchester brewers (Russ Gelinas)
  Automash (Mike Zentner)
  carboys (An-shyang Chu)
  Date sugar for brewing? (tking)
  re: Rolling Rock and aftertastes (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  AHA Competition (Jay Hersh)
  Re: Yeast in mead (dw)
  Re: Yeast in mead (dw)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date:        17 Oct 90 08:06 -0800
From: mike_schrempp%29 at hp4200.desk.hp.com
Subject:     Wort chilling

I just brewed a batch last night and created a data point for those who care
about using ice to chill wort.

I froze a 5 quarts of water and threw it into 1.5 gallons of boiling wort. I
calculated this would bring it down to 65degrees. Well, after 10 minutes it
was down to 59 and I pulled out about a 1 quart block. I guess there was quite
a bit of cooling through the sides of the pot.

Point is, this quick chill method worked for me, and I'll continue to use it
in the future, at least until I start those all-grain 5 gallon boils.


Mike Schrempp
"If my boss knew I did this from work, I'd have to share my beer."


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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 90 15:23:26 EDT
From: imagesys!shannon at uu.psi.com (Shannon Posniewski)
Subject: Apple beer

      Here is an example of a apple beer that we brewed in March.  It is
based on the Cherries in the Snow recipe in Papazian's book.  The reason we 
chose this particular recipe as a base is that we were actually planning to 
make it with cherries.  Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how one 
looks at it) it was not possible to get cherries, or raspberries, or 
any-other-berries at the time.  We settled for apples.  They were 
inexpensive (cheap), we liked them, and readily available.

      The recipe is below, including the comments we've made since the time 
it was brewed.  It is a direct copy of the log we keep, minus the 
wort-stains.  But first, some comments on the apples we used.  We used 9lbs. 
of granny smith and 3lbs. of macintosh apples.  We chose granny smiths 
because we wanted to have an "appley" flavor.  What many people define as 
"appley" is mainly caused by the sugar found most often in apples:  fructose.  
We figured that most of the fructose would be snarfed up by the yeasties, so 
we wanted an apple that had more than a mere fructose taste.  Granny smith 
apples fit the bill.  (And besides, we like them.)

        Here's the recipe:

        Apples in the snow

        1.5 gal cold water        
        6.6 lbs John Bull Malt Extract Light  (any brand should do)
        1   lb  corn sugar
        2   oz  Hallertauer Hops (boiling)
         .5 oz  Hallertauer Hops (finishing)
        12  lbs apples (9lbs Granny Smith, 3lbs. Macintosh)
        3.5 gal cold water with water crystals
        2   pkg Ale yeast (we used Edme)
        .75 cup corn sugar (for priming)

      Cut up apples into 8-10 slices each (discard cores).  Put 1.5 gal water,
and boiling hops in pot.  Bring to a boil.  Add extract and 1lb corn sugar.
Boil 40 minutes.  Add finishing hops and apples.  Let sit and steep for 15 
minutes.
      Take the entire wort and pour into a plastic fermenter that has water 
and water crystals in it.  Push apples to one side, pitch yeast and stir.
(This may sound scary to those of you who are paranoid about infections, but
 don't panic.  The steeping (in boiling wort) should kill any nasties.  If
 you are _really_ worried, simmer it and keep it at a boil. Once you put it 
 in the fermenter, the cap is on and nothing can get in...)

      We let it ferment for 3 weeks.   Sparged into a handy plastic bucket,
added .75c corn sugar, strred, and bottled.  At this point it tasted "sweet,
kinda appley (not surprising).  Hops yield an interesting secondary taste.
Might taste better a little cooler than 75oF." (and flat, BTW)

      We let carbonate for a little under a month.  Here's a quote: "Not
very sweet;  next time less hops.  The carbonation yeasties over-carbonated
at this point.  The beer was kept at 60oF for the whole time."

Summary:          Boil:  40m           Original.S.G.  1.050
          Finish/Steep:  15m           Finished.S.G.  1.015

          primary fermentation: 3 weeks.
          bottle fermentation:  4 weeks.

Some comments:
       Perhaps the use of Saaz (or other, more delicate) hops, or less hops 
at the boiling stage would reduce the hop flavor a bit.  I am a hop-head, 
and it was _still_ too hoppy for this beer.
       Over-carbonation was probably caused by the length of time the beer
was left at a warm temperature.  After 3 weeks, I suggest cooling it down.
This will slow (possibly) stop the carbonation and keep the beer sweeter.
       I have a couple bottles (which I necessarily hid) around now.  I 
had one last night.  It was "immaculate" (as Dan would say).  No over-carb,
lightly sweet, with the taste tilted towards the hops more than the apple.

       In any case, enjoy the beer!  It is _really_ good.  A pleasant 
surprise from what amounted to an experiement.

       Slainte!
       Shannon    (With help from Dan Wiesen and Pete Oehler)

******************************************************************************
* Shannon Posniewski		 * The beer erupts in a tower of foam!       *
* Image Systems Technology, Inc. * You die.                                  *
* shannon at imagesys.com		 * RIP Warthog, killed by a tower of foam.   *
******************************************************************************
 

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Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 1990 07:43:16 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Aluminum????

>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 90 19:58:48 EDT
>From: cjh%vallance.eng.ileaf.com at hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chip Hitchcock)

>In #516, Kinney Baughman [RE: Chilling Time (Steve Slade)],
>wrote:

>> I don't have the particulars, and ... perhaps you already know this,
>> but...boiling wort in aluminum pots has generally been recognized as a
>> bad idea.  Anyone out there in Netland care to enlighten us as
>> to exactly why?

>It's a perennial (and probably periodic) topic. Here's how I
>understand the controversy:
[stuff deleted about Alzheimer's]

OK, here is my understanding.

High acid liquids leach aluminum from aluminum pots.  This is
particularly why people who make tomato sauces and other high
acid liquids have avoided aluminum pots for years.

Some people claim to be able to taste the difference when using
an aluminum pot for wort.  Some claim not to be able to.

Some people may believe ingesting aluminum is dangerous.  No
proof has been given to support that yet.

So, it is up to you to balance the potential for a metallic taste
and/or possible other complications against the availability and
cost difference in aluminum or stainless steel or ceramic.

Most people seem to think that if you want a >20 quart pot, the
ceramic crab pots are the cheapest deal of the three, anyway.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 1990 07:44:21 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Too much sugar

>Date: 17 Oct 90 08:14:06 PDT
>From: stevef at sidd.SanDiego.NCR.COM

>[last batch used 4 lb. of sugar]

>This time I used only one lb of sugar and the result, so far, is
>a very nice, hoppy brew.  So my question is, why do these kits
>call for so much sugar?

As far as I know, the manufacturers want everyone to think it is
*very cheap* to brew your own beer.  Obviously, buying two cans
of extract to get ~6-7 lbs of malt is much more expensive than
buying one can and adding 4 lbs. of sugar.  Perhaps they also
think people only homebrew to get strong stuff cheap and don't
care what it tastes like.

The good news is that you can find more kits in cans that give
reasonable all-malt recipes nowadays.

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thursday, 18 Oct 1990 07:46:09 EST
From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re:  Drinking Fermented Fluids

>From: William Mayne <mayne at nu.cs.fsu.edu>

>>From: cjh%vallance.eng.ileaf.com at hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chip Hitchcock)
>>
>>   I would guess that the original assumption was that beer,
>>cider, and even wine would be widely brewed for home use or
>>occasional barter (sometimes fermented fluids were the only
>>                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>safe thing to drink), while stills (needing
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>more effort & equipment) would produce liquor for sale...

>I think your analysis of why distilling is illegal when brewing
>and winemaking are not is correct.  But I question this business
>about alcoholic drinks being the only safe thing to drink.  I
>have heard it many times, mostly from tee-totaler
>fundamentalists trying to explain the embarrassing fact that
>almost everyone in the Bible drank wine, Jesus turned water into
>wine, etc.  I am surprised to hear it from (I assume) a fellow
>drinker.  Any alcoholic drink, especially one as strong as wine,
>causes the body to use more water than the drink itself
>provides.  (This has been discussed at great length under the
>subject of hangovers in rec.food.drink.) There is no way one can
>live by substituting wine for unsafe but nonalcoholic drinks.  I
>expect the same would be true of beer, though I have never tried
>it.

1) Wine and other strong drinks are often mixed with water
because they are expensive, and still provide protection much
greater than drinking plain water.

2) Nasty things simply won't grow in beer; something told to
every new homebrewer who is afraid the beer will kill someone or
make them seriously sick.

3) I personally lived for a long while on watered wine as my only
drinking liquid (with occasional Coca Colas when I felt rich),
while living in Spain.  I imagine that it would be possible to
have a diet such that you would need a non-alcoholic drink to get
enough liquids, but I never came across such a situation in real
life.

In conclusion, I think it is fairly obvious that mildly alcoholic
drinks (like beer, or like wine mixed with water) provide
protection against nasty bugs and provide liquid sustenance as
well.

John "Doesn't mean you should overdo it, though" DeCarlo

Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Usenet:    at ... at !uunet!hadron!blkcat!109!131!John_Decarlo
Fidonet:  1:109/131

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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 90 8:44:54 EDT
From: davidson at hpanlr.an.hp.com
Subject: Temperature controller, Lager questions

(I am resending this as the first time (a couple days ago) I accidently sent
it to requests instead of submissions - if it appears twice, sorry...)

Not satisfied with the control on the refrigerator recently purchased,
I decided it was time to buy another control that would more accurately
achieve a stable temperature.  I know there has been a lot of talk about
the Hunter AIRSTAT so I looked into it.  Comparing what I could find out
about this control from past issues of HBD, as well as an inquiry to
Gary Mason who recently purchased one, I decided that maybe the Honeywell
controller described in Zymurgy, Fall 1989, would be more practical.  The
article, "Taming the Wild Fridge", mentions the part number Honeywell
T6031A1029 with a price of roughly $45.  That seems to be about the average
price I've heard mentioned for the Hunter control.  Looking under the
controls section, the refrigeration section, and the electrical section of
the yellow pages, I couldn't find anyone that carried such an item, of any
kind (the only ones they had were meant for operation inside the fridge -
to replace the existing one).

I broke down and called Honeywell, (617) 969-0250, and spoke to someone
in "Residential" that told me immediately where the closest place was that
carried it - Energy Control Systems, Inc. in Woburn, MA.  I called them and
they gave me a price of $35.44 - probably contractors price since they 
asked me what company I was with so I told them.  They had lots in stock
so I went down at lunch and picked one up.  It has a knob on the front that
has a range of -30F to +90F and a knob on the inside from 3 to 16.  The
inside knob sets the differential and is set at 3 (they don't say whether
that's +-3 or +-1.5).  There are also three terminals that are used to have
the power cord wired across - a common, an NC, and an NO.  I took a spare
extension cord, cut one wire and wired it up - it took about 4 minutes.

I immediately installed it on my fridge that contained my first lager
which I brewed on Sunday, and set the temperature.  That's when the 
questions began.  The notes on the Wyeast Munich Lager #2308 said to ferment
at temperatures of 45-48 degrees.  Well there seems to be about an 8-10
degree difference between the carboy and the glass of water I have about
6 inches away from the carboy.  I decided to tape the thermocouple (which
is on about a 3 foot wire) to the carboy (towards the bottom) and set the
temp to 48.  The temp of the fridge is now about 39 degrees.  I am assuming
that as the fermentation nears completion, this difference will approach
zero.  Is this correct?

In summary of the control, assuming the temperature control is accurate,
I am very satisfied with the controller and would recommend it over the
Hunter control - this of course is done never seeing the Hunter control,
only reading about it.  The fact that it only went down to 40 degrees was
unsatisfactory and indicated to me that it was intended more for controlling
the temperature in your home and not in a refrigerator.

The notes on the yeast suggested that a temperature of 45-48 degrees be
maintained for the first 2/3 to 3/4 of the fermentation and end at 60-65
degrees.  When is 2/3 to 3/4 of the fermentation?  Is this a fraction
of the total time, or is it a fraction of the drop in specific gravity?
It also says to "chill to the 30s for a day before separating from the lees."
Is this a day before racking, which I'll probably do around the 6th day, or
is it a day before bottling, which I'll probably do around the 20th day?

I probably should have broken this up into two postings, but what's done
is done...

Marc

- --
Marc Davidson
hp-and!davidson


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Date:     Thu, 18 Oct 90 09:44 EST
From: <R_GELINA%UNHH.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU> (Russ Gelinas)
Subject:  Manchester brewers

Hey Chuck, I agree with you that Manchester, NH (the proposed site of the AHA
national conference?) has no brewpubs and no good bars (and really nothing at
all to offer in general), BUT it does have homebrewers. I'm one, and I know
others.  So if the conference *is* in Manchester, I'll be at it (although I
rather not have to pay anything *:-).

Homebrewers (like Elvis) are everywhere!

Russ

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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 90 08:56:08 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Mike Zentner)
Subject: Automash


Has anyone found out about or used the Automash I see advertised in
Zymurgy?  What's the general opinion of this thing?  I've never seen
it and have no idea what it costs.

Mike Zentner      zentner at cn.ecn.purdue.edu

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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 90 11:16:24 MDT
From: hopper at chtm.unm.edu (An-shyang Chu)
Subject: carboys


Why even chance it?

HBD #516 :
My 7 gallon carboys came with a sulfuric acid label still attached.  I assume
that they are refuse from the local electronics manufacturering.  Although they
seem perfectly clean when I get them, I fill......

We went out to our water-bottled company and got some 5-gallon carboys for
$10 a piece.  Just look under "water-bottled & bulk" in the yellow pages.
I did not ask them if they have 7-gallon jobs, but $10 is $10.

Happy brewing, 
Hopper Chu

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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 90 13:15:28 CDT
From: tking at ux.acs.umn.edu
Subject: Date sugar for brewing?


My roommate and I have just taken up homebrewing.  We are working on
our fourth batch of brew, and have been fairly successful.

I have a question:

	Has anybody brewed using date sugar?  Papazian says he hasn't
tried it, but that it would work.  The question is, if you boil and
sparge it, will it lend enough sugar to the wort to ferment?  Also,
does date sugar contain pectin and should I avoid boiling it?

Thanks in advance...


Tim King		tking at ux.acs.umn.edu

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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 90 13:29:29 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: re: Rolling Rock and aftertastes

>Has anyone had similar experiences with the flavor of one beer 
>radically modifying the flavor of another tasted later? 

Why yes, Tom, now that you mention it, I have experienced something
similar.  A few weeks ago, my cousin, Linas, and I tried a variety
of beers in a (sort of) double-blind taste test.  The reason I say
"sort of" is because, although I knew what beers were in the sample,
I labeled them with numbers on the glasses and then pseudo-randomized the
beers (I put the dark beers at the end).  I wanted to try this test
because of Florian's praise of Budweiser a few weeks ago.  The beers
we tasted were:  Budweiser, Miller Lite, Falstaff, Hacker Pschorr Pilsner,
Pilsner Urquell, Sam Smith's Old Brewery Pale Ale, McEwan's Scotch Ale,
and one more beer that I can't remember.  The test was primarily for
drinkability because you cannot compare a Scotch Ale with a Pilsner.

I have to disagree with you Florian -- I hated the Bud.  In fact, both
of us ranked the Bud, Lite, and Falstaff in the 1, 2 or 3 (out of 10)
range and the others were in the 6 to 9 range.  I wansn't going to
post results of this taste test (because it was very un-scientific and the
data was not suprising) but all this talk of taste interactions
reminded me of one strange data point in our test.

I like ales.  However, I scored the SS OB Pale Ale as a 0 -- undrinkable.
It tasted so salty, that I was repulsed.  I know, I know, it's the water
in England.  I tasted the SS Pale on another occasion and I thought it was
fine (I like their Brown Ale and Newcastle Brown much better).  With
the idea of taste interactions in mind, I realize now what must have
happened.  In fact, all the beers tasted different from the first sip,
to the second, to the third.

I think that we will try the test again with unsalted crackers and water
between beers.

Al.


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Date: 18 Oct 90 14:46:19 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: AHA Competition

Re; Steve Dempsey's comments. Steve I had heard that was over 2000 bottles, not 
entries (at 3 bottles per entry) and therefor ~700 entries for the first round. 
Certainly no small task. I have experience with a local competition of ~70 
entries we did that in one day. The AHA has tried to space the first round out 
over a few weeks. Still all in all I think they should have called for help 
sooner, as they now seem to be doing with the proposed 3 regions for round 1.

A suggestion for round 2. Perhaps giving a discount on the conference fee to 
people in the BJCP with the requirement that they work the 2nd round would help 
to boost attendance by Judges in the program.

 For the sake of humility I think the distribution of judging into various 
regions was an eventuality and I don't believe there was a cause-effect 
relationship between the past discussion (and any suggestions I may have put 
forth) and the apparent pending adoption of part of this structure.

Steve D. says
>If you want to see the situation improve, become a judge and help recruit
>judges who will take their job as seriously as you take your brewing.
Kudos!!

Steve I believe that training you spoke of is only available in your area, and 
at the national conference, which only hit the road last year. For those in 
other locales it is strictly a do-it-yourself-if-you-can arrangement.


P.S. I can't find me Norm Hardy Germany Part 1. I tried contacting Norm directly
but have received no reply. Can anyone forward (maybe you Norm)
this since I want to keep these excellent notes for my long planned, often 
postponed trip to Munich, Prague, and Vienna

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Date: 18 Oct 90 11:23:11 EDT (Thursday)
From: dw <wegeng at arisia.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast in mead

There's no reason why healthy yeast will suddenly start fermenting more
quickly, unless something else changed.  Did the air temperature change (it
did here in Rochester)?

However, it sounds to me like your yeast isn't very healthy.  Our batches
of mead have always bubbled pretty fast (as you say, like "a beer primary
fermentation").  Did you add yeast nutrients with the yeast?  Acid blend?

BTW, we're trying out a liquid mead yeast culture in our current batch.
It's made by "meV."  We've been pretty happy with their beer yeast
cultures.  It'll be a few months before we know how it turns out, but right
now it's fermenting quite nicely.

/Don

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Date: 18 Oct 90 11:23:11 EDT (Thursday)
From: dw <wegeng at arisia.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Yeast in mead

There's no reason why healthy yeast will suddenly start fermenting more
quickly, unless something else changed.  Did the air temperature change (it
did here in Rochester)?

However, it sounds to me like your yeast isn't very healthy.  Our batches
of mead have always bubbled pretty fast (as you say, like "a beer primary
fermentation").  Did you add yeast nutrients with the yeast?  Acid blend?

BTW, we're trying out a liquid mead yeast culture in our current batch.
It's made by "meV."  We've been pretty happy with their beer yeast
cultures.  It'll be a few months before we know how it turns out, but right
now it's fermenting quite nicely.

/Don

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #521, 10/19/90
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