HOMEBREW Digest #5205 Wed 11 July 2007

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  Changing the pH of bleach:  Do not add acid to bleach! (Doug Greminger)
  Re: bleach and vinegar solution ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  HOCl ("A.J deLange")
  pH of bleach solution affecting santizing effect (Jeff Adelsberger)
  Bleach and acid sanitizer (Bill Velek)
  GBBF ("Ant Hayes")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:26:51 -0400 From: Doug Greminger <dgreminger at ameritech.net> Subject: Changing the pH of bleach: Do not add acid to bleach! Do not try to change the pH of bleach. Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is quite reactive, and it will react with itself under the right conditions. At high pH, the reaction rate is quite slow, which is why commercial bleach is alkaline. At very low pH, the acid form of bleach (hypochlorous acid) is also stable. However, the degradation reaction, which produces free chlorine, is so rapid at a pH near 7 that you cannot make the acid form of bleach by adding acid to regular bleach. You will, however, get a face full of chlorine, which will burn your eyes and your lungs. So do not add acid to bleach. Doug Greminger Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:48:18 -0500 From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com> Subject: Re: bleach and vinegar solution On Jul 10, 2007, at 08:14, "Jason Bryant" <smokeykhan at gmail.com> wrote: > Basic Brewing radio had a podcast on this topic on March 29th. > http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3 > James Spencer, the host, interviewed Charlie Talley from Five Star > Chemicals (maker of Star-San). Charlie spent a lot of time talking > about using bleach as a sanitizer. One of the things he talks about > is how effective a bleach and vinegar solution is. The one thing that > he was sure to stress was that you need to dilute the bleach in > water before adding the vinegar (or was it the other way around?). > The point being, do not mix bleach and vinegar directly. Duh. I only recently (relatively speaking) started listening to the Basic Brewing Radio podcast, and I started from the beginning, so I'm still catching up. Naturally, the day after this question was posted, and my quick-and-dirty Googled response, I finally listen to... the interview with Charlie Talley. Three things I remember from his comments that you didn't mention above. 1. The more-expensive national brands of household bleach contain more sodium hydroxide (for shelf stability), which means they're more alkaline, which means the same volume of added vinegar won't lower the pH as much. In this case, cheaper is not only better because it's cheaper, it's also better because it's better. :-) 2. Add 1 oz household bleach to 5 gal water, then add 1 oz white vinegar -- IN THAT ORDER, ALWAYS -- and the resulting pH will be in the right range to make a very effective sanitizing solution. Thirty seconds of contact time is all that's necessary, as long as the pH is low enough. 3. At this concentration (1 oz household bleach in 5 gal water), Charlie claims that rinsing is *not* required. In fact, if you're not rinsing with sterile water, you're doing more harm than good. The second half of the interview, he talked about Star-San (one of his flagship products). I've been using Star-San almost as long as I've been brewing, and it was interesting to find out that I've been using it almost entirely incorrectly all this time. :-) - -- Craig S. Cottingham BJCP Certified judge from Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1deg] Apparent Rennerian) craig.cottingham at gmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:00:34 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: HOCl Fred Johnson was kind enough to point out that I posted yesterday that hypochorous acid molecules were better able to penetrate cells because of their small size relative to OCl-. I can't fathom from which dark recess of my mind I came up with that bit of "wisdom" but it is, in fact, the lack of charge on HOCl which allows it to enter more easily. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:22:52 -0400 From: Jeff Adelsberger <jeffade at mac.com> Subject: pH of bleach solution affecting santizing effect if you mix equal parts vinegar and bleach you'll get a whole lot of chlorine gas and probably kill your self as well as wonderfully sanitizing everything. I think the origin of this is from a pod-cast interview with Charley Talley (sp?) from five star (basic brewing network). He touted the wonders of bleach but stated that most brand named bleaches are "dumbed down" and make your close white but don't do a whole lot of killing. I think he said its because they are buffered to stop you from burning holes in your close. In this sense off brand bleach is better. What he suggested was to acidify your water with vinegar, mixing it well, and then add the appropriate amount of bleach. Do not add them together. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:42 -0500 From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net> Subject: Bleach and acid sanitizer Thank you to everyone for the replies re my post about mixing bleach and vinegar as a sanitizer. I'm using iodophor right now, but if I decide to change over to the bleach/acid, I think it will be a good idea to do something like the following to be ABSOLUTELY safe: Fill my bottling bucket with 5 gallons of cold water Add one ounce of _cheap_ bleach w/ 6% sodium hypochlorite Stir very well Take outside (the kitchen door is close to where I sanitize anyway) Add one ounce of white vinegar to one glass of water and stir (this is just an added precaution which probably isn't necessary, but won't hurt) Blend vinegar water and bleach water and stir Allow to vent for a few minutes outside before bringing indoors Now, as for this supposedly being 'no rinse', and the comment by someone regarding vinegar's lasting effects (taste or odor??), could something like ascorbic acid (vitamin c) be used instead? Also, I generally let my iodophor pretty much dry in my bottles, since I use a bottle tree, but my carboys and bottling bucket drain without drying before I'm ready to use them. But I don't know how bleach and vinegar will work. I know the bleach will evaporate, IIRC, but I don't know about the vinegar; I suppose it could leave a sediment of acetic acid (or whatever); is that where the problem would be with any possible odor or flavor? Have any of you used this mix, and does it have any lingering signs of vinegar? Do you allow it to dry, or does that make any difference at all. Sorry for so many questions, but thank you in advance to all who help. Cheers. Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com 660+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol 270+ member group just for Growing Hops: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:27:53 +0100 From: "Ant Hayes" <anthayes at btinternet.com> Subject: GBBF Anyone coming through to the Great British Beer Festival by any chance? Ant Hayes Return to table of contents
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