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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Changing the pH of bleach:  Do not add acid to bleach! (Doug Greminger)
  Re: bleach and vinegar solution ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  HOCl ("A.J deLange")
  pH of bleach solution affecting santizing effect (Jeff Adelsberger)
  Bleach and acid sanitizer (Bill Velek)
  GBBF ("Ant Hayes")


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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:26:51 -0400
From: Doug Greminger <dgreminger at ameritech.net>
Subject: Changing the pH of bleach:  Do not add acid to bleach!

Do not try to change the pH of bleach.  Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is 
quite reactive, and it will react with itself under the right 
conditions.  At high pH, the reaction rate is quite slow, which is why 
commercial bleach is alkaline.  At very low pH,  the acid form of bleach 
(hypochlorous acid) is also stable.  However, the degradation reaction,  
which produces free chlorine, is so rapid at a pH near 7 that you cannot 
make the acid form of bleach by adding acid to regular bleach.   You 
will, however,  get a face full of chlorine, which will burn your eyes 
and your lungs.  So do not add acid to bleach.

Doug Greminger



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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:48:18 -0500
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bleach and vinegar solution

On Jul 10, 2007, at 08:14, "Jason Bryant" <smokeykhan at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Basic Brewing radio had a podcast on this topic on March 29th.
> http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3
> James Spencer, the host, interviewed Charlie Talley from Five Star
> Chemicals (maker of Star-San).  Charlie spent a lot of time talking
> about using bleach as a sanitizer.  One of the things he talks about
> is how effective a bleach and vinegar solution is.  The one thing that
> he was sure to stress was that you need to dilute the bleach in
> water before adding the vinegar (or was it the other way around?).
> The point being, do not mix bleach and vinegar directly.  Duh.

I only recently (relatively speaking) started listening to the Basic  
Brewing Radio podcast, and I started from the beginning, so I'm still  
catching up. Naturally, the day after this question was posted, and  
my quick-and-dirty Googled response, I finally listen to... the  
interview with Charlie Talley.

Three things I remember from his comments that you didn't mention above.

1. The more-expensive national brands of household bleach contain  
more sodium hydroxide (for shelf stability), which means they're more  
alkaline, which means the same volume of added vinegar won't lower  
the pH as much. In this case, cheaper is not only better because it's  
cheaper, it's also better because it's better. :-)

2. Add 1 oz household bleach to 5 gal water, then add 1 oz white  
vinegar -- IN THAT ORDER, ALWAYS -- and the resulting pH will be in  
the right range to make a very effective sanitizing solution. Thirty  
seconds of contact time is all that's necessary, as long as the pH is  
low enough.

3. At this concentration (1 oz household bleach in 5 gal water),  
Charlie claims that rinsing is *not* required. In fact, if you're not  
rinsing with sterile water, you're doing more harm than good.

The second half of the interview, he talked about Star-San (one of  
his flagship products). I've been using Star-San almost as long as  
I've been brewing, and it was interesting to find out that I've been  
using it almost entirely incorrectly all this time. :-)

- --
Craig S. Cottingham
BJCP Certified judge from Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1deg] Apparent  
Rennerian)
craig.cottingham at gmail.com




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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:00:34 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: HOCl

Fred Johnson was kind enough to point out that I posted yesterday that 
hypochorous acid molecules were better able to penetrate cells because 
of their small size relative to OCl-. I can't fathom from which dark 
recess of my mind I came up with that bit of "wisdom" but it is, in 
fact, the lack of charge on HOCl which allows it to enter more easily.

A.J.




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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:22:52 -0400
From: Jeff Adelsberger <jeffade at mac.com>
Subject: pH of bleach solution affecting santizing effect

if you mix equal parts vinegar and bleach you'll get a whole lot of  
chlorine gas and probably kill your self as well as wonderfully  
sanitizing everything.

I think the origin of this is from a pod-cast interview with Charley  
Talley (sp?) from five star (basic brewing network). He touted the  
wonders of bleach but stated that most brand named bleaches are  
"dumbed down" and make your close white but don't do a whole lot of  
killing. I think he said its because they are buffered to stop you  
from burning holes in your close. In this sense off brand bleach is  
better.

What he suggested was to acidify your water with vinegar, mixing it  
well, and then add the appropriate amount of bleach. Do not add them  
together. 


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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:09:42 -0500
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Bleach and acid sanitizer

Thank you to everyone for the replies re my post about mixing bleach and 
vinegar as a sanitizer.  I'm using iodophor right now, but if I decide 
to change over to the bleach/acid, I think it will be a good idea to do 
something like the following to be ABSOLUTELY safe:

Fill my bottling bucket with 5 gallons of cold water
Add one ounce of _cheap_ bleach w/ 6% sodium hypochlorite
Stir very well
Take outside (the kitchen door is close to where I sanitize anyway)
Add one ounce of white vinegar to one glass of water and stir (this is 
just an added precaution which probably isn't necessary, but won't hurt)
Blend vinegar water and bleach water and stir
Allow to vent for a few minutes outside before bringing indoors

Now, as for this supposedly being 'no rinse', and the comment by someone 
regarding vinegar's lasting effects (taste or odor??), could something 
like ascorbic acid (vitamin c) be used instead?  Also, I generally let 
my iodophor pretty much dry in my bottles, since I use a bottle tree, 
but my carboys and bottling bucket drain without drying before I'm ready 
to use them.  But I don't know how bleach and vinegar will work.  I know 
the bleach will evaporate, IIRC, but I don't know about the vinegar; I 
suppose it could leave a sediment of acetic acid (or whatever); is that 
where the problem would be with any possible odor or flavor?  Have any 
of you used this mix, and does it have any lingering signs of vinegar? 
Do you allow it to dry, or does that make any difference at all.

Sorry for so many questions, but thank you in advance to all who help.

Cheers.

Bill Velek - PERSONAL sites = www.velek.com & www.2plus2is4.com
660+ homebrewer group just for Equipment: www.tinyurl.com/axuol
270+ member group just for Growing Hops: www.tinyurl.com/3au2uv
NEW group just for Homebrewing Supplies: www.tinyurl.com/2wnang
Join 'Homebrewers' to Help Cure Disease: www.tinyurl.com/yjlnyv



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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:27:53 +0100
From: "Ant Hayes" <anthayes at btinternet.com>
Subject: GBBF

Anyone coming through to the Great British Beer Festival by any chance?

Ant Hayes



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