HOMEBREW Digest #5206 Thu 12 July 2007

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  Re: Bleach and acid sanitizer ("Craig S. Cottingham")
  Re: Bleach + Water + Vinegar (le Man)
  Bleach and Other Acids ("A.J deLange")
  Star San (Matt)
  Re: vinegar in bleach or beer. ("-s@adelphia.net")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:33:33 -0500 From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig.cottingham at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Bleach and acid sanitizer On Jul 11, 2007, at 10:09, Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net> wrote: > I think it will be a good idea to do > something like the following to be ABSOLUTELY safe: > > Fill my bottling bucket with 5 gallons of cold water > Add one ounce of _cheap_ bleach w/ 6% sodium hypochlorite > Stir very well > Take outside (the kitchen door is close to where I sanitize anyway) > Add one ounce of white vinegar to one glass of water and stir (this is > just an added precaution which probably isn't necessary, but won't > hurt) > Blend vinegar water and bleach water and stir > Allow to vent for a few minutes outside before bringing indoors The stuff about moving outside and then back inside is unnecessary, as is premixing the vinegar with a glass of water before adding it to your bottling bucket. The important steps are: 1. Fill bottling bucket with water 2. Add 1 oz household bleach and stir 3. Add 1 oz white vinegar and stir > Now, as for this supposedly being 'no rinse', and the comment by > someone > regarding vinegar's lasting effects (taste or odor??), could something > like ascorbic acid (vitamin c) be used instead? *Could* it be used? Yes. However, the vitamin C tablets in your medicine cabinet probably are a salt of ascorbic acid, which isn't the same thing (though I don't know this for a fact), and they contain a lot of other stuff (cellulose, food grade wax, etc). Trying to figure out how much vitamin C, by weight, contains as many moles of acid as 1 ounce, by volume, of kitchen-grade acetic acid makes my head hurt, and I earned a degree in this subject, many moons ago. > I don't know about the vinegar; I > suppose it could leave a sediment of acetic acid (or whatever); is > that > where the problem would be with any possible odor or flavor? One fluid ounce US is 6 teaspoons. Into 5 gallons of water, that's a little more than 1 teaspoon per gallon. That's a ratio of 1 to 768. Let's say you have five gallons of bleach/vinegar/water mixture in your bottling bucket. You pour it into something else, so the bucket appears to be empty. Of course it's not; there's still a little film of liquid on the surface. It puddles in the bottom of the bucket, and you get maybe a teaspoon of free liquid. (This is just a wild-and- crazy guess, but it seems about right.) That's one teaspoon out of five gallons, which had only 6 teaspoons of vinegar in it to start with. You're down to 1/768th of a teaspoon of vinegar in that little puddle in the bottom of the bucket. If you then add five gallons of liquid on top of it, you're diluting it even further. I can't imagine that such a little amount of vinegar would be detectable, even in water. If you're adding five gallons of beer, well, hopefully your beer has more flavor than water. :-) If you don't want to take my word for it, it's easy to test. Add 6 teaspoons white vinegar to 5 gallons of water. Pour the water on your hop bines (this time of year, they'll thank you for it :-). Add 5 gallons of water back to the bucket. Taste. - -- Craig S. Cottingham BJCP Certified judge from Olathe, KS ([621, 251.1deg] Apparent Rennerian) craig.cottingham at gmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:31:45 +0100 From: le Man <hbd at thebarnsleys.co.uk> Subject: Re: Bleach + Water + Vinegar HI Bill, Being a Septic, I listened to Charlie's interview, and then decided to give it a try. It may be me, but when mixed correctly, I could detect NO aroma of vinegar or chlorine in the mixed product. The fermenting bins I used were left to drain/dry, In the dried bin there was NO aroma of vinegar/chlorine. I even took some of the drainings and added it in proportion to a pint of beer . . . . . No tainting was detectable Is it an effective sanintser . . . well the jury is out on that one, but the batch of beer brewed in the fermenters is very nice indeed. - -- leman (The Brewer Formerly Known As Aleman) Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:58:07 +0000 From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net> Subject: Bleach and Other Acids I was the one that mentioned the persistance of vinegar smell. Perhaps it doesn't apply here. Any other acid should do. One might want to avoid hydrochloric as the chlorine emission is more "efficient" if chloride is present (but note that bleach made from brine or chlorine and lye already contains chloride ion). It seems to me that lactic or phosphoric acids would be suitable choices as they are likely to be found in the brewery, are available in food grade at most home brew supply shops and, in the case of the phosphoric at least, are flavor neutral. Remember that it is important to keep the pH above about 4 - say 6 to be on the safe side. Note that about 97% of the chlorine HOCl at pH 6 (pK = 7.5). A good way to procede would be to dilute the bleach and then add the acid in small increments monitoring pH with a meter or test strips as you go keeping track of how much it takes to get to pH 6. In the future use the same amount of same strength acid with the bleach of the same trade percent (same brand). Working ouside and standing up wind seem like good ideas to me. I'll stick with iodophor. A.J. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:41:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com> Subject: Star San Craig says "I've been using Star-San almost as long as I've been brewing, and it was interesting to find out that I've been using it almost entirely incorrectly all this time." For those of us who for whatever reason cannot listen to the podcasts, is there a surprising or counterintuitive "correct" way to use Star San? Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:59:53 -0400 From: "-s at adelphia.net" <-s@adelphia.net> Subject: Re: vinegar in bleach or beer. Despite my own note to the contrary I *think* the correct method is to add bleach to the diluted vinegar. Any other thoughts ? BillV continues ... > Fill my bottling bucket with 5 gallons of cold water > Add one ounce of _cheap_ bleach w/ 6% sodium hypochlorite > That's only a ~100ppm of hydrochlorous and even accounting for the increased availability of the HOCl - it does not meet USF standards as a sanitizer. You should ave double the concentration (200ppm) at a minimum. > Now, as for this supposedly being 'no rinse', and the comment by someone > regarding vinegar's lasting effects (taste or odor??), My baloney detector is pegging out. Vinegar is NOT out of place in beer. By this I mean that acetic acid (as far as I know the only flavor component in distilled or white vinegar) is the most common organic acid in normal beer at around 57-145ppm. Yeast leak a little acetic as they make fatty acids frm acetylCoA. Now I had some Shepherd Neame Spitfire ale once that exceeded those amounts by a lot, and tho' it was odd it was not at all bad. Addding an extra 1or 2 (or 10)ppm of acetic residue to beer will have absolutely no impact on flavor. "Distilled" white vinegar means the vinegar is concentrated (see the definition of 'distilled'). It does NOT mean that the vinegar passed through a reflux still. "Distilled vinegar" may include viable aceobacteria. treat it accordingly. > could something > like ascorbic acid (vitamin c) be used instead? You can go to a winemaking shop and get various acid plends or you can use phosphoric or whatever you use to acidify water. > Also, I generally let > my iodophor pretty much dry in my bottles, since I use a bottle tree, > but my carboys and bottling bucket drain without drying before I'm ready > to use them. But I don't know how bleach and vinegar will work. I know > the bleach will evaporate, IIRC, but I don't know about the vinegar; You'll get acetic acid residue - but that's a non-issue. Some of the bleach will very slowly evolve as Cl2 gas and "leave the building". Unfortunately much of the bleach residue will remain as dry hypochlorite salts and sit in your bottle awaiting the arrival of beer or wort to make an awful flavor. I really don't see hypochlorite salts as any sort non-rinse sanitizer when just a few ppb of chlorophenols will ruin a beer. Let's ballpark a bit. Let's assume that for a 5 gallon batch your residue amounts to 1 fl.oz of your 100ppm hypochlorous solution, and that 50% of the Cl disappears as Cl2 gas. This is a VERY VERY conservative estimate because: 100ppm hypochlorous is not strong enough, you should use 200ppm, it's VERY unlikely you can keep all the rinse residue in all the tubes and bottles down to 1 fl.oz, I suspect you'll retain 80-95% as hypochlorite, not 50%. Still - when you remix that 50ppm at 1 fl.ounce into 5 gal (dilute by 640) you're just under 0.1ppm of hypochlorous in your beer and this can produce about 250ppb of chlorophenolics which have a flavor threshold around 10ppb. So if you break your hump keeping the chlorous ions dilute you can still have bad flavors at about 25 times above their flavor threshold. This sounds like a bad choice for no-rinse. Use iodophor for your no-rinse, and adjust the ph on that too. -S Return to table of contents
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